tibet

Tibet was annexed by the PRC in 1951……source Wiki et all.

Sure thing!! As the saying goes All that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Tibet was annexed by the “Peoples Republic”, its national leadership sent into exile, its people endlessly persecuted and marginalised for their religeous and personal beliefs…..yeah sure, its a Chinese matter

When was tibet ever annexed?, the Quin dinasty rulers of china at the time also ruled tibet, they made the Dalai Lama. The chinese never recognized any independance in early 20th century as didnt any other countries in the world. When you say good men do nothing what would you have done, ask the US/Uk to form an army to invade? that wont achieve anything as nor will an economic blockade. Like i said earlier if change is to happen its for the tibetan and chinese people to work out, and if atrocities are being carried out then the chinese people need to be showed them so they can influnence their government. They hold the trump card, not you or me.

I do honestly think many people take freedom and freedom of speech for granted and have no concept of what life would be like when those fundemental rights, (which exist mainly in the evil west btw) were taken away from them, how would you handle it…?

Freedom of expression is a pipe dream that I ripped apart in another thread, the west is full of hypocrasy when it comes to the very term. No one is calling the west evil, yes overall there is more transparency mainly down to the government structure compared with china but you try and make china sound like some sort of monster which is keeping its populace oppressed.

I think SOC summed it up the best, it is a chinese matter and its upto the chinese/tibetan people to sort it out.

Sure thing!! As the saying goes All that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Tibet was annexed by the “Peoples Republic”, its national leadership sent into exile, its people endlessly persecuted and marginalised for their religeous and personal beliefs…..yeah sure, its a Chinese matter:mad:

ahhh i see, the good old “if it ain’t me it don’t matter” stance,

I dont have the if it aint me it dont matter stance, allot of allegations are being thrown at china with the tibet issue most of the allegations are not true. Please show me where the chinese government is rounding up people in tibet because they havnt paid tax and are killing them.

so by your logic the population of a country, any country just dosn’t matter a bit to anyone outside that country yeah? How would you feel if you lived in a country perhaps China perhaps not, and they, the goverment there killed your family for not paying there tax or your family were homeless so they were rounded up never to be seen again by you or anyone else? Can you honeslty say you’d appreciate it if the rest of the world just kept the collective noses out of the affair?

Sounds like what the afghan, iraqi, palestinian and numerous other peoples must be feeling right now, why dont you raise your voice against the “collateral damage” that both UK and US carry out day in day out and the brutal israei policies in the occupied teritories.

you speak of moral authority the west has no legs to stand on, when western armies invade countries like iraq, let things like haditha, abu graib, fallujah happen when the people on top turn a blind eye to the whole epsiode how can you expect other world leaders to take western countries seriously.

The bottom line is just like the US/UK rule in Iraq, China rules in tibet, you can say what you want but reality wont change. You can only change perception if you show substantiated proof to the chinese people to make their own government change their stances.

Jon

Don’t waste your time talking sense here.
These are the people that don’t want anyone to do anything unless it helps them.
Remember, the “west” can’t criticise anyone because of…take your pick:
the crusades
imperialism
capitalism
the U.S.’s “late” entry into WWI and II
George Bush

Besides, I’m sure Lenin, “Uncle Joe” Stalin and Mao were just misunderstood.:rolleyes:

Indeed it would seem ‘the west’ and America in particular are forever singled out for what amount to minor human rights abuses while others get let off the hook totally, the most they can come up with is water boarding – not nice admitidly but rather pathetic in comparrison when you see what happens in other countries, i guess as long as there not from ‘the west’ they get a free pass, certainly seems that way, everyone scream orders for what they’d want ‘the west’ to do and were all terrible if we don’t do what they personally want but no-one gives a hoot what the likes of China does, most odd. I personally think alot of it comes down to it being ‘fashonable’ to demonize your own goverment amongst people these days and apolagise for the savage behavior of others,a most odd world we live in.

ahhh i see, the good old “if it ain’t me it don’t matter” stance..

Jon

Don’t waste your time talking sense here.
These are the people that don’t want anyone to do anything unless it helps them.
Remember, the “west” can’t criticise anyone because of…take your pick:
the crusades
imperialism
capitalism
the U.S.’s “late” entry into WWI and II
George Bush

Besides, I’m sure Lenin, “Uncle Joe” Stalin and Mao were just misunderstood.:rolleyes:

I think SOC summed it up the best, it is a chinese matter and its upto the chinese/tibetan people to sort it out.

ahhh i see, the good old “if it ain’t me it don’t matter” stance, so by your logic the population of a country, any country just dosn’t matter a bit to anyone outside that country yeah? How would you feel if you lived in a country perhaps China perhaps not, and they, the goverment there killed your family for not paying there tax or your family were homeless so they were rounded up never to be seen again by you or anyone else? Can you honeslty say you’d appreciate it if the rest of the world just kept the collective noses out of the affair? I do honestly think many people take freedom and freedom of speech for granted and have no concept of what life would be like when those fundemental rights, (which exist mainly in the evil west btw) were taken away from them, how would you handle it…?

Tibet is part of China. What China is doing is right insofar as their own political, moral, and ethical standards and policies are concerned. Beyond that, nothing else matters. Other nations are perfectly within their rights to have their own opinions based on their own moral and ethical standards, but they have no right to insist that the Chinese adopt those standards.

I think SOC summed it up the best, it is a chinese matter and its upto the chinese/tibetan people to sort it out.

But then, quating rather dupios articles with no clear stance about their refrencies and how credible their sources are, is not going to convince me from anything else, that There actually are people out there who hate china and want to bash it by every moment they could.:(

Indeed i would agree there are those who seek to demonize China, however that was just one of several thousand articles that google pulled up for me when i did a quick search. There are some horrible accounts of what happen in China, are every single one of them true – probably not in all likely hood but unfortuantly there are vast amounts of evidence that point to many allagations being utterly true, Chinese ‘death buses’ as an example, sounds horrific and it is, and unfortuantly its real and now thankfully fairly common knowlege that no one denies, google up chinese death buses and see for yourself, there not imaginary or made up there real and are an example of the brutal treatment of people in China.
Edit: Garry you fell into the same trap you always do, we are not dicussing America and there Human rights but Chinas record for human rights which only is of a great deal more concern to the rest of the world despite all the whining about camp x-ray.

not guilty, i’ve only ever seen a few clancy films too, hunt for the red october and crimson tide, never read fiction, well read the hobbit as a kid but thats about it oh and a kids book called one white mouse i think when very young, no clancy though.http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1077.htm for an insight into what i was referring to.

I think you should read more books…but as a bookworm myself I always tell that to everyone:rolleyes: But taking account of your wievs, You migth find Clancy actually rather entertaining…

But then, quating rather dupios articles with no clear stance about their refrencies and how credible their sources are, is not going to convince me from anything else, that There actually are people out there who hate china and want to bash it by every moment they could.:(

PRC birth-controll policy can seem crude to us westeners who has the luxury of be completely unfamilar for the whole proplem, but that doesen’t help the chinese government by any means. Its difficould and proplematic issue, with no easy way out and despite what you decide, the result wont statisfy all…So its cheap call to point that as example of Chinese “evilnes”.

As far as I have read and seen these guys down at gitmo, or CLUB GITMO as I like to call it, get 3 squares a day, can pray in accordance with their beliefs (as in what times etc etc)………((does anybody remeber the bull**** story of the korans/Korans(not sure the correct spelling, dont wana offend/no offense intended) being flushed?))…………..just one thing that comes to mind)

Soviet military prisons often fed their inmates better than troops in the field because in the Prisons everyone got exactly what it said in the book they were supposed to get. In the field there were often shortages of lots of different things.

Honestly, I ask this question in all seriousness. Because any of you, while we may disagree, dam well know that if another “convention” is held and a set of laws are set in place, well itll still be some sort of western crusade against the middle east/muslims, no matter what the convention comes to hold true.

The west already unilaterally created a Universal declaration of basic human rights. They are not even applying that.

Of course this is described as a war on terror, yet it is not a war because those the US capture are not enemy combatants apparently.

Garry, I gota say I love ya. (In a friendly way thats it )But to say Stalin gave a show trial and then gave 10 yrs is better than guys staying in gitmo?…..pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee……….. …..gimmie a break. It aint perfect, is it? Question is, will we ever be perfect? Any of us that is? of course not. But to compare a bad midnite pick up, in jail for 5 yrs (like i said, 3 squares a day, all prayer privileges, etc etc) to a Soviet gulag………you cant even stretch that much can you? Maybe you can and its fine, but thats just my idea.

In both cases you are probably in custody based on heresay or your name got mentioned during someones torture. You think sitting in a cage in Cuba with bad music blaring 24/7 so you can’t sleep and getting questioned all the time… the same question over and over no matter what your answer is, with no legal representation, and no one telling you what you have done wrong… try that for 5 years… and then all of a sudden you are released… free to go and you still have no idea what you were arrested for?

I am sure the US military would be happy to know you think it is club Fed… an easy prison that is probably a lot better than the living conditions most of these people come from… but ask yourself… if they are treating them so nicely why keep them in Cuba? Why deny them legal representation? Obviously they couldn’t keep torturing them if they were in the US and had legal representation… so the purpose is obviously so they can keep torturing them… yeah that sounds like a holiday camp to me…

Oh and by the way, I am not fully aware of international law, but i dam well know the US Constitution….and, im sure a lot will hate to hear this, but as far as I am concerned if you are not a US citizen you have no rights under the US Constitution, but then again, im just an uneducated idiot. But that opens a whole nother can of worms.

The US constitution does not give you your rights. Otherwise it could be burned and your rights would no longer exist. It merely defines them in plain English so you know what your rights are.
As such it could be argued that non-US citizens have the same inalienable rights because they are not American rights, but Human Rights.
It seems however that like the Nazis before you, you hold yourself to be special and seperate from the global community. I am sure in those Hollywood movies where some Yank stands up on a Hijacked plane and says something like “You can’t do that to me… I am an American citizen!” that your chest puffs up and you feel really good about being American.

In the rest of the world those not laughing at that idiot is shouting for the bad guy to shoot him.
(Note just him… not for all Americans on the plane to be shot).

Look I don’t want to single you out Chuck… but if we take your opinion that the people in Guantanimo have no rights because they are not American citizens then why did you invade Iraq? The Iraqis have not got US citizenship either so removing saddam makes no sense… not only were no American citizens saved but plenty were put at risk. Equally China is not oppressing any Americans in Tibet so why should you care what happens there?

wow, so if they decided to start, i dunno lets say randomly taking peoples babies and murdering them, for nothing but fun or lets actually take this a step futher, they decided to exterminate half there population because they felt like it for fun you’d be ok with that?

If they are not American citizens then America doesn’t care… if they are not Finn children being killed should Finland care?

BTW with their one child policy many female children were aborted or “died” so in a sense if you were anti Abortion you could claim that is something they have already done.

China is an adolescent giant: clumsy, unused to exerting its will beyond its borders, and wracked by self-doubt. Emerging into the company of world powers, it is thin-skinned – like any adolescent – and prone to wild mood gyrations.

Could say the same about the US post cold war. “we are acting like the world police and wonder why no body loves us anymore… go on hug a cop… you know you want to…”

…….What China is doing is right insofar as their own political, moral, and ethical standards and policies are concerned. Beyond that, nothing else matters. Other nations are perfectly within their rights to have their own opinions based on their own moral and ethical standards, but they have no right to insist that the Chinese adopt those standards.

Agreed 100% – and the same stricture should apply to China in their dealings with other nations and cultures.

Perceptions in the West notwithstanding, Tibet forms part of China so far as the Chinese government is concerned and, to their minds, this is all simply an internal matter for China.

For better or for worse, their behaviour in Tibet is in no way different from the behaviour of Chinese rulers towards recalcitrant minorities within China for – quite literally – centuries past.

They are, if nothing else, at least consistent.

Tibet is part of China. What China is doing is right insofar as their own political, moral, and ethical standards and policies are concerned. Beyond that, nothing else matters. Other nations are perfectly within their rights to have their own opinions based on their own moral and ethical standards, but they have no right to insist that the Chinese adopt those standards.

Who is Justin Raimondo…and why are his opinions valid?
He has a right to have them, I just hate for a bunch of people who know knothing of US politics to belive him.

Let’s cut to the chase….ask youself a question without resorting to West or US bashing…or putting up fallacious arguments (not that I think most of you are capable of that)…

Is what China is doing in Tibet right or wrong?

Unless you’re a huge fan of the former USSR and other totalitarian states, you’d have to agree that China’s human rights records are dismal….so how much of the benefit of the doubt are they owed?

Dont try to paint the picture black, they are humans not monsters. If people strat murdering babies, everyone in the heart of the happenings will get infuriate and would step in.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/12/15/112856.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/world/asia/22china.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Instead of a (far too) lengthy cut-and-paste of someone else’s opinion, why not tell us what you think instead, young? 😎

This is an excellent article by Justin Raimondo. It provides an in-depth
analysis (hence its length) & further our understanding of this complex
social-politico-economic-racial issue/subject. The author has a detailed
knowledge of the subject matters. He sheds light on the behaviour of
politicians like Nancy Pelosi (US Congress woman) and explains the
issues-of-the-day to a worldwide audience. This article deserves to be read by everyone.

Someone’s been reading too many Tom Clancy books if you ask me…… :p

not guilty, i’ve only ever seen a few clancy films too, hunt for the red october and crimson tide, never read fiction, well read the hobbit as a kid but thats about it oh and a kids book called one white mouse i think when very young, no clancy though.http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1077.htm for an insight into what i was referring to.

What if i were to tell you they were already exterminating babies and have been for many years now – all under the guise of population control? The people cannot rise up when ruled by such powerfull regimes, you know as well as i do what happens when they try – yeah we end up with many many civilians being crushed by the military and police, tianamin square is proof of that and don’t for a moment think that wouldn’t happen again. So we end up in a problem situation where the rest of the world does nothing while the people of China are helpless, you really think it should be that way?

Someone’s been reading too many Tom Clancy books if you ask me…… :p

Dont try to paint the picture black, they are humans not monsters.

What if i were to tell you they were already exterminating babies and have been for many years now – all under the guise of population control? The people cannot rise up when ruled by such powerfull regimes, you know as well as i do what happens when they try – yeah we end up with many many civilians being crushed by the military and police, tianamin square is proof of that and don’t for a moment think that wouldn’t happen again. So we end up in a problem situation where the rest of the world does nothing while the people of China are helpless, you really think it should be that way?