tibet

I guess the topic is about whether this is an internal Chinese problem or something bigger. The fact that Tibet never was a sovereign country indicates that this is an internal problem. British posters here are advised to look up their own issue with Northern Ireland, for example. What about invading Britain because I don’t like how N.I. is being treated?

You seem to have completely omitted that the very same source claims Tibet being a region, not a country.

Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and China did not seem to have done much with it until 51 mainly because they had enough problems with Japanese, but Tibet never was acknowledged as a sovereign country.

I didn’t omit anything, I was just quoting a source of information. Just a thought though…….in political/geographical, terms if you annex then are you not taking/gaining territory/peoples that were not an integrated part of your state to begin with? Otherwise why do it?…as I said, just a thought

Tibet was annexed by the PRC in 1951……source Wiki et all.

You seem to have completely omitted that the very same source claims Tibet being a region, not a country.

Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and China did not seem to have done much with it until 51 mainly because they had enough problems with Japanese, but Tibet never was acknowledged as a sovereign country.

Wow the lie eh? you never seen the pictures of the innocent humans murdered by Saddams WMD i take it? I guess the hundreds of thousands of totally innocent humans that died from the horrific effects of Saddams WMD should be treated as a lie to eh? And you think we should have let him get away with genocidel murder like that too! It might have been late coming but justice was served for the surviving victims and thier families, something your obviously very bitter about,very sad. I would hope if a murdered killed members of your family he would not get a free pass just because it was a decade or so ago, wouldn’t you?

That was the Al-Anfal Campaign in 1988 plus some additional massacres in 1991 after your own forces have left. Do you want to advocate a 2003 incasion of Iraq with human rights abuses that took place fifteen years earlier? :confused:

I wonder how do you do that with your children. If the y do something wronmg and you want to give them a lecture, do you do that 10 years later? 😉

So, following that debate, what have you got to say about the Olympic torch protests yesterday.
Who exactly were protesting, do we have that many Tibetans in this country then, I think not, well they seemed to appear on que for the cameras, but most of the protesters I saw were white.
I think that what summed it up for me was a comment from Joanna Lumley.
Having delivered flowers to that priveleged, rascist, ‘slitty eyed’ member of the Royal Family, in bed and recieving the best medical care in the world because of a cold stopping his ‘Royal appointments’, we then have a tirade against the Chinese, mainly stemming from her fathers experiences in the diplomatic service, which no doubt occured during the Maoist period, followed by some comments from an equally obnoxious upper class woman who hopefully had a reliable nanny to look after her grandchildren in her expensive Surrey farmhouse.
I bet they were all full on for a Chow Mein last night.
So what happened to the student protest of my day then, they couldn’t give a monkeys, sensible. My son went to a party near the Millenium Dome on saturday night, got blathered along with the rest of his cronies, then was more concerned about watching the FA cup semi final on Sky, sounds much more of a reasonable attitude to me, better than throwing yourself in front of a police horse for nothing, and we are talking about astute, aware kids here.
Oh dear, as my mother would say.
Furthermore, the media and god knows who else are trying to incite an Olympic ban on China in relation to what happened to the Soviet Union in 1984, wasn’t that something to do with their invasion of Afghanistan, oh dear, shock horror, they proved to be right after all, a bit of help and understanding at the right time and we may not have been in the bloody mess that we are in now.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it.
Perhaps we had better look out for these orange clad, world dominating monsters from Tibet, the Chinese obviously have it sussed.

People have already started to sweat:China Asks U.S. to Back its Control of Tibet Unrest
As I said its very difficult to disregard the “West”.

Norway likely to boycott opening of Olympics in Beijing see www.rsf.org. Thanks rayrubik, a very good site. At last a country with backbone in this matter..unlike the toadying to Beijing going on in London!:mad:

The real questions is – genocidal fantasies apart – what do you propose to do about it?

Realistically?

Before answering, please bear in mind that China currently has the largest population of any nation, the world’s largest standing armed forces and, with an estimated 2007 current account balance of +$363.3 billion (Source: CIA Factbook), one of the strongest economies on the planet.

Depends on whom are you referring to as “you”.

1.As far as the “west” is concerned I am not sure they could do much at this moment….not much because of the military aspect but more so because their economy is intertwined with the Chinese.At the moment diplomatic and symbolic protests will have to do.Gradually economic policies will have to be modified by the countries who are actually concerned about this.Militarily maybe covert assistance to keep various rebelling factions alive.In anycase 30-40 years from now china looks to be one of the countries challenging the US hegemony on an equal footing.So it is most probable that plans are already underway to prevent this.

2.As far as India is concerned(I being an Indian) I would look to vote out the wimps and install somebody who takes actions to safeguard Indian interests.Militarily actions are already being taken at this moment to thwart any Chinese military aggression in future.

3.At the personal level..I try not to buy chinese goods at all , alternatives are there Japanese ,Korean ,Indian etc..And also try to convince people in my social circle to do likewise.I am also not going to watch the olympics for the first time in many years.My car already sports this sticker at the corner of the windshield just below some other sticker;) .So does many of my friends and family’s.

Things have to start somewhere..however small.

Yes, we all agree that the Chinese government sometimes acts towards their own population in a way that we in the West find extremely distasteful.

The real questions is – genocidal fantasies apart – what do you propose to do about it?

Realistically?

Before answering, please bear in mind that China currently has the largest population of any nation, the world’s largest standing armed forces and, with an estimated 2007 current account balance of +$363.3 billion (Source: CIA Factbook), one of the strongest economies on the planet.

Jail for Chinese rights activist
A prominent activist who publicised human rights abuses across China has been convicted of subversion and jailed for three-and-a-half years.

Here’s what a NY based chinese guy said on another forum..and I kindof agree with him.Even the chinese friends i have hold similar views.

Yes its rather unusual it would seem to meet a Chinese person who sings any praise for China. I buy knock off DVDs off some Chinese kid – well used too cos i havnt seen him for a while but the only time we did briefly talk about China he was full of hate and anger toward the goverment and said he would never go back. Sad i think.

Here’s what a NY based chinese guy said on another forum..and I kindof agree with him.Even the chinese friends i have hold similar views.

China as a country is OK, with bright future, but in terms of government and human rights… DAMN, have you guys ever talked to the commie bosses in China?

There might be some smart professionals making the shots on economy, but what about the commie bosses in the propaganda department and all those career commie bosses doing just nothing?

What about all the blocked websites, youtube, wikipedia just name a few?

I understand they want to hold on power, but access to wikipedia weakens their rule, really?

China is getting richer, great, my family and friends are doing great. Thank you, Deng Xiaoping. But I don’t really appreciate all the stupid commie bosses up there and telling me what I should read and talk..

No, I am not going back, thank you!

You misunderstood, I wasn’t calling the protests silly, just your anology.
Is the MOD as bad as the Chinese?
How many people were killed in the UK protest?
Was it covered by the state media (BBC)?
Are there opposition members in the House of Commons and Lords?

You see, no comparison.

Your point seems to be that no place is perfect…so the UK, EU, US, UN, and anyone else has no right to condem the Chinese.
But the limitations placed on people in the UK, to cite your examples…like tresspassing on an airport or breaking into an MOD base are trivial compared to what’s going on in China.

You and I, and the UN and the UK and anyone else can condemn any human right abuses anywhere as im sure the same way China will condemn us for interfering in their internal affairs. Im not trying to compare the UK government to the chinese, but the culture here in the UK with respect to HR is totally different in comparison to China. The people in China see it as part of the norm, we dont over in the west. Capital punishment and things like beheading is seen as an extreme here where as in Saudi arabia for example its the norm.

What im trying to get at it, the west nor anyone else for that matter cant impose their view of HR on China or any other country. If change is to happen its to happen from within. While any abuses should be fully condemned (and I do condemn them im not condoning in any way) the best we can do is voice our concerns and try and make those old boys see from our views. What else can we do?

I dont see whats silly about protesting outside a military base..

You misunderstood, I wasn’t calling the protests silly, just your anology. 😀
Is the MOD as bad as the Chinese?
How many people were killed in the UK protest?
Was it covered by the state media (BBC)?
Are there opposition members in the House of Commons and Lords?

You see, no comparison.

Your point seems to be that no place is perfect…so the UK, EU, US, UN, and anyone else has no right to condem the Chinese.
But the limitations placed on people in the UK, to cite your examples…like tresspassing on an airport or breaking into an MOD base are trivial compared to what’s going on in China.

BTW: The yelling “fire” at the cinema is a long standing legal example of the limitations of free speech. Not because it’s a private business as you seem to imply..and it would be annoying like a cell phone, but rather because it would cause a panic and people would be trampled. Thus, yelling “Fire” is against the law, the same as driving your Fiesta faster than the speed limit.
As far as marrying your sister…I know Germany has put a guy in jail for it, never heard of it in the UK. But I’m sure it’s a limitation on your freedoms…so in your eyes, maybe London’s as bad as Bejing?

A rather silly anology.

MOD & USAF policy (remember, the MOD sets the rules for USAF bases in the UK) is to allow protestors provided they don’t break any laws…block traffic etc. It is not illegal to protest.

If they do any of the above, they are libel to arrest by civil authorities.
The same rules are probaly in effect at all MOD bases, nuclear power stations, Buckingham Palace, the Houses of Parliment, major factories, TESCO,….

If they unlawfully enter the base, they are arrested by by the MOD for trespassing. Seems pretty clear.

The use of deadly force is authorized…but it has never been used in the US or UK…or anyplace else. Some silly rules about protecting weapons (bombs and such), people, and aircraft from terrorists, spies, and the like.
Similar rules were in effect in the war…you know where the good guys beat the fascists. It was in all the papers.
Perhaps you’ve seen a film about it?

The MOD and USAF put up the “Greenham Common” protestors for years and and no was was ever arrested for simply being there…I’m pretty sure no one was shot.

I dont see whats silly about protesting outside a military base, the protests were not aloud to be carried out that was going against the freedom of those people, and the house of lords agreed to that. Those people didnt threaten to enter the base, no law was broken on their part.

Franky, I’m surprised at the level of defense the Chinese receive here…after all, the nations in the EU seem to be urging the PRC use restraint if not outright supporting Tibet. Public opinion is not on the side of the totalitarian regime.

Nobody is defending the chinese, I certainly am not defending anyone. Im pointing out that nobody/country is perfect. While the talk has veered off slightly going on about freedom of expression (my fault here), the conclusion I ask you all is, what would you have done that will change anything in tibet or anywhere else?

So despite the apparent loss of your freedoms you can not:

-Yell “fire” in a crouded cinema.
-Drive your auto at 130 MPH on the high street.
-Marry your sister.

I find those examples rather weak, firstly its against the law to drive at 130MPH, so anybody doing that is likly to get prosecuted, as for marrying ones sister I dont know if there is a law probably is in the UK. Finally yelling in a cinema….well that is not a public place so to speak a cinema is part of a private enterprise who have a set of rules, you pay them and they give you a service but you have to adhere to their rules, abit like taking out a telephone contract you have to adhere to the rules. And freedoms do have a limit usually in the form of “the law of the land”.

The protestors in the east midlands airport case occupied an unused runway, they wasnt causing any disturbance to anybody and it was a peaceful protest. Entering of the area may have been hazadous for them (even if it is unused), but the ordeal they went through after, being detained more than a day and being told not to meet up again….where is the freedom in that?. (Emphasis added).

Even in a liberal democracy (which China isn’t) there are rules & laws.

So despite the apparent loss of your freedoms you can not:

-Yell “fire” in a crouded cinema.
-Drive your auto at 130 MPH on the high street.
-Marry your sister.

Sorry if being informed of any of the above disrupts any weekend plans.

1) The government stopped anti war protestors who were legally trying to carry out a protests at a US base in fairford gloucestershire back in 2003 what happened to freedom to express there and to the civil liberties. Who was on board- old men and women and defenseless people who posed no threat at all. The US military had said they would fire on any protestors that breached the base….these are british citizens by the way.

A rather silly anology.

MOD & USAF policy (remember, the MOD sets the rules for USAF bases in the UK) is to allow protestors provided they don’t break any laws…block traffic etc. It is not illegal to protest.

If they do any of the above, they are libel to arrest by civil authorities.
The same rules are probaly in effect at all MOD bases, nuclear power stations, Buckingham Palace, the Houses of Parliment, major factories, TESCO,….:rolleyes:

If they unlawfully enter the base, they are arrested by by the MOD for trespassing. Seems pretty clear.

The use of deadly force is authorized…but it has never been used in the US or UK…or anyplace else. Some silly rules about protecting weapons (bombs and such), people, and aircraft from terrorists, spies, and the like.
Similar rules were in effect in the war…you know where the good guys beat the fascists. It was in all the papers.
Perhaps you’ve seen a film about it?

The MOD and USAF put up the “Greenham Common” protestors for years and and no was was ever arrested for simply being there…I’m pretty sure no one was shot. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Franky, I’m surprised at the level of defense the Chinese receive here…after all, the nations in the EU seem to be urging the PRC use restraint if not outright supporting Tibet. Public opinion is not on the side of the totalitarian regime.

Personally I think you raise a lot of valid issues, but not necessarily this one. Often times these protesters will actually illegally enter secure areas of the base (on one occasion they actually cut a hole through the fenceline at Lakenheath). That type of action simply cannot be tolerated by a law-abiding society. If this was the same organization, then I say the police may have been right to stop them before they did something really stupid or dangerous. And yes, breaching a military facility is most definitely grounds to get yourself shot at.

These group of protesters made up mostly of women, and we cant stop them from protesting assuming they will break the law by breaking into the base, they have to do that to be arrested and stopped. Protesting outside the base should be fine. Another example comes to mind how two old ladies were approached by policemen, because where they were standing was overlooking a military base. The policeman was asking them for identification under the new terror laws….i mean come on two old women standing in a field talking…and its over looking a military base so they are questioned. Coming back to these protesters after 4 yrs they won their case in the house of lords, it was ruled they shouldnt have been stoped and that was unlawful.

Also, the genius protesters at the East Midlands airport were also guilty of illegally entering the airport by cutting through the fence. In the current environment, searching their homes is a valid security procedure I’d think. Dunno if you can actually legally prevent them from meeting together, but the search was warranted. Some morons at Heathrow did the same thing, actually climbing on top of an airliner to unveil a banner.

The protestors in the east midlands airport case occupied an unused runway, they wasnt causing any disturbance to anybody and it was a peaceful protest. Entering of the area may have been hazadous for them (even if it is unused), but the ordeal they went through after, being detained more than a day and being told not to meet up again….where is the freedom in that?.

Now coming to your final point about police trying to help make sure a riot scene isnt made by rival protesters that is fine, but what if there is no rival protesters as in this case there wasnt any. Also a guy called Brian haw has protested on hes lonesome many times, and has been in some cases laid into by more than 10 policemen, what is that all about?. It is these people who bring light to the measures that are being taken against us in the shadows in all these legislations and laws.

With the kind of anti terror laws in place I wouldnt be suprised if some agency did turn up at anyones door for spouting hate against the UK government. Let me wake you up to the reality as you need a dose of it.

1) The government stopped anti war protestors who were legally trying to carry out a protests at a US base in fairford gloucestershire back in 2003 what happened to freedom to express there and to the civil liberties. Who was on board- old men and women and defenseless people who posed no threat at all. The US military had said they would fire on any protestors that breached the base….these are british citizens by the way.

Personally I think you raise a lot of valid issues, but not necessarily this one. Often times these protesters will actually illegally enter secure areas of the base (on one occasion they actually cut a hole through the fenceline at Lakenheath). That type of action simply cannot be tolerated by a law-abiding society. If this was the same organization, then I say the police may have been right to stop them before they did something really stupid or dangerous. And yes, breaching a military facility is most definitely grounds to get yourself shot at.

Also, the genius protesters at the East Midlands airport were also guilty of illegally entering the airport by cutting through the fence. In the current environment, searching their homes is a valid security procedure I’d think. Dunno if you can actually legally prevent them from meeting together, but the search was warranted. Some morons at Heathrow did the same thing, actually climbing on top of an airliner to unveil a banner.

Protesting is fine, I have no issue with it. But you have to be mindful of the rules, and your right to protest extends only so far as it doesn’t interfere with the rights of others. In both cases above they caused major delays at the airports, infringing on the rights of hundreds of passengers.

Lastly, protests have to be registered over here as well, if they’re large scale or in certain areas. This is not to prevent people from protesting, this is actually to help protect the rights of the protesters. That way police and whatnot are often deployed to keep people who don’t share their views from causing trouble.

Moderator Message

Jon James – This is a discussion forum.

Users are perfectly entitled to hold views that differ from your own, and can reasonably expect to express them without being hectored and sneered at.

Please treat others with the same respect that would you like them to show for you.

Thanks

GA