tibet

Shouldn’t you have been caged by now by the oppressive and brutal Uk goverment?

Um lets have a think here…im sure MI5 hasnt quite clocked on yet, but seriously is this how you side step everything I have written. Im amused with people such as yourself who hold onto straws and even they slip out your hands. Where is your proposal now to solve HR abuses in tibet?

Shouldn’t you have been caged by now by the oppressive and brutal Uk goverment? :confused:

instead of going through your post point by point i shall just laugh at how you compare those minor infringements of rights to what goes on in China,

Listen to yourself will you, calling fellow citizens “protesting idiots”, im sure repressive regimes say the same thing. Why dont you read what I have written and actually learn a thing or two. So you find people being arrested and detained with no reason minor?, you find turning a blind eye to rendition flights resulting in some cases to torture as minor?, you find it ok for foreign governments to take away our citizens with no reason as minor?. What kind of citizen are you.

and you get to sit there slagging off your goverment again without any reprucussion from our evil goverment, suprise suprise.your distorting of the Police and how they go abou there buisness is quite a feat to

Any repercussion…please do read liek I said its obvious you know very little.

you do realise how pathetic it looks trying to compare what they do when arresting protesting idiots to what the Chinese do to there people, you sir have scored a mighty fail but keep on whining how we in the UK are brutally oppressed wont you, its comedy gold.

No where have I compared chinas HR record against the UK’s, I have highlighted we are far from perfect here and violations are being carried out in this country in some cases wrecking lives. If your blinded and cant see that fact then its ashame that someone who is trying to champion rights for tibetans cant even champion hes own citizens rights. And for your reference I wrote about the above freedoms being curtailed to highlight the fantasy many people in britain live in thinking how free and wonderful everything is.

Oh and you never did answer your solution to the socalled “tibetan HR issues”, what is your solution lets hear that too.

With the kind of anti terror laws in place I wouldnt be suprised if some agency did turn up at anyones door for spouting hate against the UK government. Let me wake you up to the reality as you need a dose of it.

1) The government stopped anti war protestors who were legally trying to carry out a protests at a US base in fairford gloucestershire back in 2003 what happened to freedom to express there and to the civil liberties. Who was on board- old men and women and defenseless people who posed no threat at all. The US military had said they would fire on any protestors that breached the base….these are british citizens by the way.

2) Did you know you can be fined for disagreeing with the government anywhere in the UK, so much for your spouting hate against the government theory. Wear a “brown is a ( what ever vile word you like) ” t-shirt outside parliament lets see how long it takes for you to get fined.

3)It is illegal to demonstrate infront of parliament (infact within 1 km around the area) without getting police permission first. The home secretary has got the power to make anywhere in the UK a protest free zone.

4) Arresting of climate change protestors at east midlands airport, by an armed unit by the way, who then told the protestors on release if they met one another they will be rearrested. These protestors had their houses ransacked, families scared by the police by the way. Sounds like something robert mugabe would have done.

5) In brighton the arresting, dragging of an 80 year old man by about 5 police officers who was peacefully demonstrating against an american weapons factory, what did the old man do? hold up sketches against the factory. The old man by the way was ex RAF who served in the world war.

6) oh what about these terror laws that detain without trial or evidence, churchil was the one who suspended habeus corpus during the second world war but quickly after reintroduced it. And now we have a pathetic labour government who has again suspended it…after more than a thousand years of having it in full force. Many innocent people have been arrested- the recin plot back in 2002 comes to mind. All made up and proved to be nothing. Civil liberties….what are those?

7) Natwest 3 ring a bell?, all extradiated to the US with no evidence or details of their case provided by the US for anything, only the fact blunket signed our rights away to the americans. Freedoms did I hear?

8)Guntanomo bay and torture that is carried out there, im sure i dont need to get into that and rendition flights to and from hidden prisons around the world used by the americans to carry out torture in countries which allow it.

if you want more dose of reality please just say il help in kind.

Im not appologising for anybody, im trying to make you see sense. In reality like i posted a few posts above what would you propose we all do?, theres very little we all can do. Lets hear your solution to this “Chinas abuse of HR”, what do you propose. If you cant propose jack so to speak and cant do anything yourself, then why are you ranting on?.

instead of going through your post point by point i shall just laugh at how you compare those minor infringements of rights to what goes on in China, and you get to sit there slagging off your goverment again without any reprucussion from our evil goverment, suprise suprise.your distorting of the Police and how they go abou there buisness is quite a feat too, you do realise how pathetic it looks trying to compare what they do when arresting protesting idiots to what the Chinese do to there people, you sir have scored a mighty fail but keep on whining how we in the UK are brutally oppressed wont you, its comedy gold.In short keep on attacking the country you live in with world class civil and human rights whilst trying to make us out to be in the same league as China.

With the kind of anti terror laws in place I wouldnt be suprised if some agency did turn up at anyones door for spouting hate against the UK government. Let me wake you up to the reality as you need a dose of it.

1) The government stopped anti war protestors who were legally trying to carry out a protests at a US base in fairford gloucestershire back in 2003 what happened to freedom to express there and to the civil liberties. Who was on board- old men and women and defenseless people who posed no threat at all. The US military had said they would fire on any protestors that breached the base….these are british citizens by the way.

2) Did you know you can be fined for disagreeing with the government anywhere in the UK, so much for your spouting hate against the government theory. Wear a “brown is a ( what ever vile word you like) ” t-shirt outside parliament lets see how long it takes for you to get fined.

3)It is illegal to demonstrate infront of parliament (infact within 1 km around the area) without getting police permission first. The home secretary has got the power to make anywhere in the UK a protest free zone.

4) Arresting of climate change protestors at east midlands airport, by an armed unit by the way, who then told the protestors on release if they met one another they will be rearrested. These protestors had their houses ransacked, families scared by the police by the way. Sounds like something robert mugabe would have done.

5) In brighton the arresting, dragging of an 80 year old man by about 5 police officers who was peacefully demonstrating against an american weapons factory, what did the old man do? hold up sketches against the factory. The old man by the way was ex RAF who served in the world war.

6) oh what about these terror laws that detain without trial or evidence, churchil was the one who suspended habeus corpus during the second world war but quickly after reintroduced it. And now we have a pathetic labour government who has again suspended it…after more than a thousand years of having it in full force. Many innocent people have been arrested- the recin plot back in 2002 comes to mind. All made up and proved to be nothing. Civil liberties….what are those?

7) Natwest 3 ring a bell?, all extradiated to the US with no evidence or details of their case provided by the US for anything, only the fact blunket signed our rights away to the americans. Freedoms did I hear?

8)Guntanomo bay and torture that is carried out there, im sure i dont need to get into that and rendition flights to and from hidden prisons around the world used by the americans to carry out torture in countries which allow it.

if you want more dose of reality please just say il help in kind.

Im not appologising for anybody, im trying to make you see sense. In reality like i posted a few posts above what would you propose we all do?, theres very little we all can do. Lets hear your solution to this “Chinas abuse of HR”, what do you propose. If you cant propose jack so to speak and cant do anything yourself, then why are you ranting on?.

instead of going through your post point by point i shall just laugh at how you compare those minor infringements of rights to what goes on in China, and you get to sit there slagging off your goverment again without any reprucussion from our evil goverment, suprise suprise.your distorting of the Police and how they go abou there buisness is quite a feat too, you do realise how pathetic it looks trying to compare what they do when arresting protesting idiots to what the Chinese do to there people, you sir have scored a mighty fail but keep on whining how we in the UK are brutally oppressed wont you, its comedy gold.

What are you talking about? you do realise your sat here spouting free speech right now – freedom of expression duh – yeah you ripped apart a pipe dream that your living in! You sit here in the west slagging off and running down everyone whilst living in freedom, theres no guys gonna be knocking on your door in 10 minuites because you slagged off your goverment is there? Its not the west full of hypocrasy sir but yourself!

With the kind of anti terror laws in place I wouldnt be suprised if some agency did turn up at anyones door for spouting hate against the UK government. Let me wake you up to the reality as you need a dose of it.

1) The government stopped anti war protestors who were legally trying to carry out a protests at a US base in fairford gloucestershire back in 2003 what happened to freedom to express there and to the civil liberties. Who was on board- old men and women and defenseless people who posed no threat at all. The US military had said they would fire on any protestors that breached the base….these are british citizens by the way.

2) Did you know you can be fined for disagreeing with the government anywhere in the UK, so much for your spouting hate against the government theory. Wear a “brown is a ( what ever vile word you like) ” t-shirt outside parliament lets see how long it takes for you to get fined.

3)It is illegal to demonstrate infront of parliament (infact within 1 km around the area) without getting police permission first. The home secretary has got the power to make anywhere in the UK a protest free zone.

4) Arresting of climate change protestors at east midlands airport, by an armed unit by the way, who then told the protestors on release if they met one another they will be rearrested. These protestors had their houses ransacked, families scared by the police by the way. Sounds like something robert mugabe would have done.

5) In brighton the arresting, dragging of an 80 year old man by about 5 police officers who was peacefully demonstrating against an american weapons factory, what did the old man do? hold up sketches against the factory. The old man by the way was ex RAF who served in the world war.

6) oh what about these terror laws that detain without trial or evidence, churchil was the one who suspended habeus corpus during the second world war but quickly after reintroduced it. And now we have a pathetic labour government who has again suspended it…after more than a thousand years of having it in full force. Many innocent people have been arrested- the recin plot back in 2002 comes to mind. All made up and proved to be nothing. Civil liberties….what are those?

7) Natwest 3 ring a bell?, all extradiated to the US with no evidence or details of their case provided by the US for anything, only the fact blunket signed our rights away to the americans. Freedoms did I hear?

8)Guntanomo bay and torture that is carried out there, im sure i dont need to get into that and rendition flights to and from hidden prisons around the world used by the americans to carry out torture in countries which allow it.

if you want more dose of reality please just say il help in kind.

Go learn about Chinas abuses of human rights too before you try claiming China dosn’t keep its population oppressed. i look forward to your reply which i predict will apolagise for China, say the human rights allagations are all made up and that you live in a society with no freedom of expression whilst probably slandering your own goverment which will happily let you spew your opinion of the ‘myth of freedom expression in the west’ that you ripped apart as a pipe dream

Im not appologising for anybody, im trying to make you see sense. In reality like i posted a few posts above what would you propose we all do?, theres very little we all can do. Lets hear your solution to this “Chinas abuse of HR”, what do you propose. If you cant propose jack so to speak and cant do anything yourself, then why are you ranting on?.

what people want is for China to buck up its human rights and stop treating people like dirt or less then dirt. Whats so tough to understand about that?

What people?:) Western people or chinese people?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
If western people wants that, why should china give **** about what they want?

there simply are no excuses or get out clauses for thier behaviour.

Whos is?
Me?
No my friend, I have allready told you that I dislike chinese HR violations too, you failed there lad.;) 😉

Dang the thecnicalities:mad: 😡 😡

Ok, lets try it again. (and this time without any West bashing, OK:) )

Yeas, If it is too hard for you to follow me, or you have lost the track, let me regap it for you:

First, you came to tell that China is bad and brakes HR as habbitual missconductor, and condemned China and I recall you even try to advocate that US should intervene to free Tibet from their opression.

Seccond phase: I came to tell that you cannot do it, becouse You have no rigth to do so, as we west have no such thing as better morale pose to justify such actions as last time i checked, no morale codex exept some nazi-oriented one allows hegemonies to expand in others expense.

Third phase: You didn’t listen

Fourth Phase: I tryed to explain it to you by telling bit about cultural relevance

Fifth phase: You didn’t listen…

Therefore I came up with that guestion, as I thougth it would make you understand, why your ranting about Chinese HR is useless and has no meaning at all.

Phase six: You didn’t listen, or you didn’t understand, but started to shout that this isen’t about US or other countries.
I admit, it was my fault, I should have used rougher examples, like country A and country B for instance.

So for Last time. (and this time we do it in two phases so that you can follow it trough and point me the exact phase where you lost track)

1) Is china bad and should its government be changed?
If your answer is yeas, then look at guestion 2

2) Should Chinese people accept that someone foreinger tells them that they should replace their government and start following what those foreingers think is rigth or wrong?

if you cannot place yourself in the shoes of chinese people, Think how you would react if chinese came to tell you the same thing that you are telling to them.

No one is talking about replacing the whole Chinese goverment, what people want is for China to buck up its human rights and stop treating people like dirt or less then dirt. Whats so tough to understand about that? I certainly do not have to place my self in thier shoes to want the people there to have a goverment that cares for them and dosn’t treat them like dirt, hell if i were being treated the way the Chinese people are i’d be so glad that someone has spoke up for me no matter where they live. China are obligated to provide decent human rights by the UN which they are a part of and signed up to, they are failing miserably, there simply are no excuses or get out clauses for thier behaviour. you may have the last word as i give up, we are simply going around in circles.

Dang the thecnicalities:mad: 😡 😡

Ok, lets try it again. (and this time without any West bashing, OK:) )

The issue isn’t to do with any other country in the world but China

Yeas, If it is too hard for you to follow me, or you have lost the track, let me regap it for you:

First, you came to tell that China is bad and brakes HR as habbitual missconductor, and condemned China and I recall you even try to advocate that US should intervene to free Tibet from their opression.

Seccond phase: I came to tell that you cannot do it, becouse You have no rigth to do so, as we west have no such thing as better morale pose to justify such actions as last time i checked, no morale codex exept some nazi-oriented one allows hegemonies to expand in others expense.

Third phase: You didn’t listen

Fourth Phase: I tryed to explain it to you by telling bit about cultural relevance

Fifth phase: You didn’t listen…

Therefore I came up with that guestion, as I thougth it would make you understand, why your ranting about Chinese HR is useless and has no meaning at all.

Phase six: You didn’t listen, or you didn’t understand, but started to shout that this isen’t about US or other countries.
I admit, it was my fault, I should have used rougher examples, like country A and country B for instance.

So for Last time. (and this time we do it in two phases so that you can follow it trough and point me the exact phase where you lost track)

1) Is china bad and should its government be changed?
If your answer is yeas, then look at guestion 2

2) Should Chinese people accept that someone foreinger tells them that they should replace their government and start following what those foreingers think is rigth or wrong?

if you cannot place yourself in the shoes of chinese people, Think how you would react if chinese came to tell you the same thing that you are telling to them.

No Jon the topic is that us westerners are condemning here China. We come to close the issue of culture-relativism.

So if America raises up your hair, Then think that …well Evil Norwegian Neo-Vikings come to say that UK are monsters and they should replace their laws by new edition of Dannelag and instal government that is pro-Oslo and obeys their obinion of what is rigth or wrong?

But really, you just love to dodge that issue when you know that the answer would cripple your stance against china, so seriously, Im not expecting you to answer to it.
So Feel free to hide behind “You fall into america trap” shouts. I dont really care, I would have just liked to expand your world view and take account point of views that perhaps differers from yours…or wont, depending have you thougth that question….
You know what, I think in your mind you have asked that guestion, and you didn’t like the answer;) 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

The issue isn’t to do with any other country in the world but China, not Finalnd not the Uk not even America, the issue is China and its abuses of human rights, keep trying to play moral equivilence games comparing China and other countrys if you like but your just getting more and more irrational. China is the issue here, no one else but China. I never did ask myself your silly hypothetical question about America and China swapping places to come up with a silly hypothetical answer as you suggested i did and didn’t like the answer, your quite wrong i never even gave the question a thought, it was silly and a distraction away form the issue which again i repeat is China and not America or Finland or the Uk or any other countries. Create a seperate thread for silly hypothetcial arguments that are of no use to anyone if you so desire but please understand this thread concerns China and again i repeat not any other country. Somehow i don’t think you’ll be able to adjust to that as theres no way to bash the west when solely dealing with the issue the threads discussing…

No Jon the topic is that us westerners are condemning here China. We come to close the issue of culture-relativism.

So if America raises up your hair, Then think that …well Evil Norwegian Neo-Vikings come to say that UK are monsters and they should replace their laws by new edition of Dannelag and instal government that is pro-Oslo and obeys their obinion of what is rigth or wrong?

But really, you just love to dodge that issue when you know that the answer would cripple your stance against china, so seriously, Im not expecting you to answer to it.
So Feel free to hide behind “You fall into america trap” shouts. I dont really care, I would have just liked to expand your world view and take account point of views that perhaps differers from yours…or wont, depending have you thougth that question….
You know what, I think in your mind you have asked that guestion, and you didn’t like the answer;) 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

So basicly when all people in earth realises how bad place china is, you will be contented?
Gee, I have to go and tell that to all my chinese pals, Im sure they share your enlighted opinion:rolleyes:

But otherwise than that, You are the best topic-dodger I have encourted with my internet carier…
Afterall, I have admitted that Chinese HR record is bad, all im asking, what gives you rigth to condemn it;)

And speaking of dodging:

Dont try to appear like silly child when you aren’t one;) The idea of that guestion is make you think how would a china man think when someone living in US says that they are bad and monsterous people, and they should replace their government by something that the US would approve.
If you can accept that sort of scenario, Im more than willingly accept every critisism towards china. A deal?

Again your falling into the America trap, whats the point in creating fictional scenarios? All that does is distract from the issue which is China, not America but China. If you cannot discuss Chinas human rights issues without draggin America into it every time or trying to create hypothetical situations then there really is no point discussing the topic with you. As for what gives me the right to condemn China, free speech, freedom to have an opinion, caring about the oppressed people in the world, basically my right as a human being to form an opinion, you don’t think i should be allowed to voice my opinion on China? – i’m sure the Chinese would like that wouldn’t they if no one could say a bad word about them….

Freedom of expression is a pipe dream that I ripped apart in another thread, the west is full of hypocrasy when it comes to the very term. No one is calling the west evil, yes overall there is more transparency mainly down to the government structure compared with china but you try and make china sound like some sort of monster which is keeping its populace oppressed.

What are you talking about? you do realise your sat here spouting free speech right now – freedom of expression duh – yeah you ripped apart a pipe dream that your living in! You sit here in the west slagging off and running down everyone whilst living in freedom, theres no guys gonna be knocking on your door in 10 minuites because you slagged off your goverment is there? Its not the west full of hypocrasy sir but yourself! Go learn about Chinas abuses of human rights too before you try claiming China dosn’t keep its population oppressed. i look forward to your reply which i predict will apolagise for China, say the human rights allagations are all made up and that you live in a society with no freedom of expression whilst probably slandering your own goverment which will happily let you spew your opinion of the ‘myth of freedom expression in the west’ that you ripped apart as a pipe dream:rolleyes:

So basicly when all people in earth realises how bad place china is, you will be contented?
Gee, I have to go and tell that to all my chinese pals, Im sure they share your enlighted opinion:rolleyes:

But otherwise than that, You are the best topic-dodger I have encourted with my internet carier…
Afterall, I have admitted that Chinese HR record is bad, all im asking, what gives you rigth to condemn it;)

And speaking of dodging:

As for you question about China and America swapping places, its irrelevent, it wouldn’t happen, can’t happen and is hypothetical rubbish designed to draw the argument away from China.

Dont try to appear like silly child when you aren’t one;) The idea of that guestion is make you think how would a china man think when someone living in US says that they are bad and monsterous people, and they should replace their government by something that the US would approve.
If you can accept that sort of scenario, Im more than willingly accept every critisism towards china. A deal?

I give up, every abuse China carries out is apolagised for under some different banner be it culture, population, wealth basically anything, people refuse to believe China carries out any human rights abuses and demand the courtroom style evidence before they will concede the Chinese are at fault and even then it would probably be called western lies by nasty news papers. All one can hope is the people with thier heads buried so deeply in the sand will one day wake up and realise China is an appalling nation, pehaps the very worst on the planet with regards to human rights and abuses of power and its not all made up stories by the west to demonize the Chinese. As for you question about China and America swapping places, its irrelevent, it wouldn’t happen, can’t happen and is hypothetical rubbish designed to draw the argument away from China. I’ll come back when people refuse to keep apolagising for China and trying to turn this into an American issue for obvious reasons.

Indeed i would agree there are those who seek to demonize China, however that was just one of several thousand articles that google pulled up for me when i did a quick search. There are some horrible accounts of what happen in China, are every single one of them true – probably not in all likely hood but unfortuantly there are vast amounts of evidence that point to many allagations being utterly true, Chinese ‘death buses’ as an example, sounds horrific and it is, and unfortuantly its real and now thankfully fairly common knowlege that no one denies, google up chinese death buses and see for yourself, there not imaginary or made up there real and are an example of the brutal treatment of people in China.
Edit: Garry you fell into the same trap you always do, we are not dicussing America and there Human rights but Chinas record for human rights which only is of a great deal more concern to the rest of the world despite all the whining about camp x-ray.

What exactly makes them true? Becouse they are published? I would like to know what is in your standards of source critisism?

And about America, I agree this isen’t about US HR reccord, its about Tibet, and in my stance, about wheter us westeners have rigth to critisize chinese internal politics. As you have taken the stance that we have, and base that on morale and ethics, it automatically brings the issue to wheter only Chinese HR abuse is condemtable, or should we not allow any HR violations at all.

In my last post I asked about how would you feel if the US and China would have switched places, yet you didn’t answer to me. But even if you think those upon yourself, you will find what the answer is.

By their actions…no democracy and state controlled media, the Chinese government seems to be indicating that it really doesn’t care about what its people want.

Most people just want to live their lives…they get violent only when they think there is no other option….i.e. when the government is hopelessly against them and not listening.

As you point out, China is not the same place as it was in the 19530-60s….when will the old men realize that?

How many people must be crushed by tanks before the government gets the idea the people want some changes?

The problem is we have no idea what the chinese people want as there has never been a poll carried out, we dont really know how much the current government is loved or not. The next generation will change China but china will not become like the west. It is different culturally and that does not change over night.

Now most people are concerned about human right abuses ect, you have to ask your self what can the world really do apart from what its doing now, foreign leaders are voicing their concerns but apart from that what else do you think will happen?. Thats why I said what I did, what SOC wrote was correct. It may just take time and many lives to make a change or it might not. We just have to wait and see. Do you really think after the soviet union collapsed and russia adopted democrasy the old set up no longer exists? ofcourse it still does, those old boys are still there, institutions have changed names but not gone away.

Yes easy for me to sit in the conform and safty of my house while Tibetans or other people could be oppressed as we speak but in realitic terms what am i to do?, will boycotting the olympics make China say “tibet is no longer part of China” or will any other measures do that?. The chinese allready say they have given tibetans autonomy and rights, some chinese see the minorities having more protection and rights than them, what are we to do sitting and judging from a distant. Only the people where they are can make the difference, the only real thing we can do is voice our concerns to make sure people are not killed unjustly like what happened at Tiananmen Square. China worries about its international image so maybe voicing concerns can influence them. But im afraid thats all we can do.

By their actions…no democracy and state controlled media, the Chinese government seems to be indicating that it really doesn’t care about what its people want.

Most people just want to live their lives…they get violent only when they think there is no other option….i.e. when the government is hopelessly against them and not listening.

As you point out, China is not the same place as it was in the 1930-60s….when will the old men realize that?

How many people must be crushed by tanks before the government gets the idea the people want some changes?

I think they tried that in Tiananmen Square in 1989.
How can they influence their government when it’s not a democracy and the media is state controlled?

There is a large growing middle class in China which will have a huge economic clout against the government, the government will listen and signs are showing it is listening already. China may be a communist country but its opening up to western ideas they have adopted a capitalist approach with their business and industries, although still state controlled for the most part. You cant expect change over night but even the most brutal and repressive regimes in history have been toppled by their own people. The Chinese people may not topple their government but the next and coming generations will influence and change it.

Like I said only the chinese and tibetan people can resolve the matters and it is their internal affairs, if you have a better idea please do share it.

…if atrocities are being carried out then the chinese people need to be showed them so they can influnence their government.

I think they tried that in Tiananmen Square in 1989. :rolleyes:
How can they influence their government when it’s not a democracy and the media is state controlled?

BTW: Please tell us about yourself since you use a web name and don’t list your location. It would help us understand your viewpoint.