tibet

Instead of a (far too) lengthy cut-and-paste of someone else’s opinion, why not tell us what you think instead, young? 😎

March 26, 2008 By Justin Raimondo
Why They Hate China
Well, you have to hate someone…

China’s continuing crackdown on Tibetan pro-independence protesters is a big, big issue here in San Francisco. Why, just the other day, I was coming out my front door, and there was one of my neighbors – a very nice woman in her fifties, albeit an archetypal limousine liberal, typical of the breed. So typical that she might almost be mistaken for a living, breathing, walking, talking cliché. She hates George W. Bush and the neocons because she’s against the (Iraq) war, but she’s eager to “liberate” Darfur – and, lately, Tibet. That morning, as she earnestly informed me, she was on her way to a meeting of the Board of Supervisors (our town council) to exhort them to vote for a resolution condemning the Chinese government’s actions and calling for “freedom” for Tibet. What she doesn’t realize, and doesn’t want to know, is that she and the neocons – the very ones who brought us the Iraq war – are united on the Tibet issue. I tried, in vain, to point this out to her, but she just shook her head, cut the conversation short, and was on her way…

As it turned out, the supervisors voted for a meaningless, toothless resolution, stripped of provocative rhetoric, much to the dismay of the far-lefties who argued for a stronger statement. The initiative for this effort was made by supervisor Chris Daly, an obnoxious left-liberal with delusions of grandeur, whose pose of self-righteousness is both grating and characteristic of his sort.

Prior to the vote on the Daly resolution, which was vociferously supported by the supposedly pacifistic supporters of the Dalai Lama, the Chinese consulate was… firebombed. This is what the War Party would like to do to China.
Fortunately, there are a number of restraining factors that get in the way: in the meantime, however, our preening politicians demagogue the China issue, and none so brazenly as Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, my congressional representative, who is merely Chris Daly writ large. Traveling all the way to India, at taxpayers’ expense, Madam Speaker visited with the Dalai Lama at Dharamsala and announced that if Americans don’t speak out against Beijing’s repression in Tibet “we have lost all moral authority to speak on behalf of human rights anywhere in the world.”

Pelosi is a longtime opponent of Beijing – not just the Chinese government, but China itself. Pelosi and the unions she depends on for political support despise all things Chinese for the simple reason that China, today, is more capitalist than the U.S. – in spite of the Chinese Communist Party’s ostensible commitment to Marxist ideology. Thinly veiled racist-chauvinist bilge is routinely directed at the Chinese people by union bosses and right-wing paleo-protectionists, who stupidly claim that the “chinks” (or, as John McCain would put it, the “gooks”) are stealing “American jobs” – as if Americans have a hereditary right to the very best salaries on earth, a “right” that doesn’t have to be earned by competitive business practices but is conferred on them by virtue of their nationality. Like hell it is.

Lucrative trade and cultural exchanges between China and California, as well as the fact that many Chinese in her congressional district have continuing ties to the mainland, have – so far – failed to deter Pelosi and her fellow Know-Nothings: politics, as they used to say during the Cultural Revolution in China, is in command.

These Sinophobic protests, engineered behind the scenes by leftist union bosses and God knows who else, are focused on the passing of the Olympic torch, which is slowly but surely making its way to Beijing, where the games are scheduled to be held Aug. 8-24. Here in the Bay Area, activists in the “Free Darfur” movement announced they were mounting demonstrations urging China to “extinguish the flames of genocide” in Darfur in San Francisco on April 9, the day the flame passes through the city.

The hosting of the Olympic Games in Beijing is the focus of much pride in China, seen by the people as well as the ruling caste as symbolic of the nation’s arrival in modernity. As such, the worldwide protests and political posturing of preening politicians – from Pelosi to Nicolas Sarkozy – are bitterly resented and have been met with increasingly shrill denunciations by the Chinese state-controlled media – a sentiment that probably understates popular resentment of Western criticism in the Chinese “street.”

I know we are supposed to believe that the vast majority of the Chinese people are groaning under the weight of Commie oppression and sympathize (albeit silently) with the downtrodden Tibetans, but that is hardly the case. Indeed, the exact opposite is closer to the truth. Every time the West gets up on its high horse and lectures the Chinese government about its lack of “morality,” the tide of anti-Western Chinese nationalism rises higher.

We saw this when the U.S. “accidentally” bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during Clinton’s Balkan War of Aggression, and again when that American spy plane went down over Hainan island. In Beijing today, they are worried about the upcoming Olympic celebration, which will provide a platform for a wide variety of groups – including ultra-nationalist Chinese students, whose street antics have augured internal regime change in the past, and could do so again. “They are worried about a larger number of things and they are worried about keeping the lid on,” according to Arnold Howitt, a management specialist who oversees crisis-management training programs for Chinese government officials at Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government. The same Associated Press article cites an unnamed “consultant” to the Games, who avers:
“‘Demonstrations of all kinds are a concern, including anti-American demonstrations,’ said the consultant, who works for Beijing’s Olympic organizers and asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to talk to the media.”
Any indications that Beijing is compromising Chinese pride and honor by appeasing the West are likely to be met by demonstrations that are both anti-American and anti-government – initiated, once again, by Chinese students, who have often been the agents of political transformation. Remember the Red Guards? Mao used them to initiate his own “Cultural Revolution,” but was forced to rein them in when they started talking about overthrowing the Chinese state.
The memory of that dark and chaotic era haunts China’s contemporary rulers, threatening to spoil their dream of a thoroughly modernized industrial powerhouse that is both the forge and the financial capital of the world economy. The Beijing Olympics represent the entry of China onto the world stage as a first-class power, right up there with its former adversaries: the U.S., Europe, and the former Soviet Union. A Chinese nationalist cannot be faulted for seeing the organized campaign to spoil that debut as a deliberate – and unforgivable – insult.

Viewed from this perspective – the perspective, that is, of the average citizen of China – the very idea of Tibetan independence might easily be seen as a rather obvious attempt to humiliate Beijing and remind it of its “proper” (i.e., subordinate) place in the global scheme of things.

After all, what if Chinese government leaders constantly reminded the world that the American Southwest was stolen from Mexico? Imagine the Chinese and Mexican ambassadors to the U.S. demanding independence, for, say, California – or better yet, its return to Mexican sovereignty! Shall the Olympics be forever barred from Puerto Rico, which was forcibly incorporated into the U.S. “commonwealth” in the invasion of 1898?
Of course not. Yet the Americans and their international amen corner are daring to criticize China for preserving its own unity and sovereignty. It’s a double standard made all the more insufferable by the self-righteous tone of the anti-China chorus, whose meistersingers are mainly concerned with celebrating their own moral purity.

Yes, Tibet was forcibly incorporated into the Communist empire of the Han, but this was just an episode in the long history of Sino-Tibetan relations – for the greater part of which the Tibetans held the upper hand. The Tibetan empire, at its height, extended from northern India to the Mongolian hinterlands and came at the expense of the conquered Chinese and Uighurs. It fell apart due to a ruinous civil war. A key factor in this complex narrative is that Mongol hegemony over China was greatly aided by the Tibetans, whose conversion of the Mongol nobility to Buddhism legitimized Mongol rule. Today, pro-Beijing historians point to this period as proof that Tibet has “always” been a part of China proper, yet the truth is that both were slaves to the Mongols – the Tibetans as their collaborators, the Chinese as their helots. (Underscoring Mongol contempt for their Chinese subjects was an edict forbidding intermarriage between Mongol and Chinese, although no such barrier to Mongol-Tibetan congress was imposed.) With Buddhism as the state religion, Tibetan priests, including the Dalai Lama, became the avatars of Mongol rule.

In short, the popular narrative of the pacifistic Buddhist Tibetans as the good guys and the Han Chinese as the bad-guy aggressors is the stuff of pure myth, pushed by union propagandists, lefty Hollywood do-gooders, and trendy sandal-wearing Western camp followers of the Dalai Lama, who has become a secularized yet “spiritual” substitute for Mother Theresa.

If the Chinese are wrong to hold on to their province of Tibet, then Lincoln was wrong to insist that the South stay in the Union – and we ought to immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans.

The same goes for Taiwan – China’s rulers are no more likely to give up their claim to that island than Lincoln was inclined to let the Confederacy hold on in, say, Key West, Fla.

China is an adolescent giant: clumsy, unused to exerting its will beyond its borders, and wracked by self-doubt. Emerging into the company of world powers, it is thin-skinned – like any adolescent – and prone to wild mood gyrations. During the 1960s and ’70s, the Chinese were in a distinctly bad mood as they wrestled with the ghosts and demons unleashed by Mao. The triumph of the “modernizers” over the ultra-left Maoists in the 1980s signaled a new mood of optimism and inaugurated an era of unrivaled economic growth. The regime sanctified China’s journey down the “capitalist road” by citing the reformer Deng Tsiao-ping’s most famous “Communist” slogan: “To get rich is glorious!” Ayn Rand meets Chairman Mao (or, rather, Confucius) – and the result is capitalism-on-steroids.

That’s why, in spite of the sclerotic Marxoid ideology that still reins in and retards the natural entrepreneurial spirit of the Chinese people, China is moving forward by leaps and bounds. That’s also why comrade Pelosi and her union boss buddies have launched this odious Sinophobic hate campaign – because “their” jobs and sense of entitlement are going up in smoke. For decades, the U.S. government has preached the virtues of free enterprise and urged formerly Communist nations to adopt the free market – and now that the Chinese have taken them up on their offer, Western politicians are attacking them!
The closer China has moved toward our own system – relaxing totalitarian controls over the economy and allowing a far greater degree of ideological diversity than was possible during the Maoist era – the more hostile the U.S. government has become. Nixon went to China at the height of the Cultural Revolution, where he sat next to Madam Mao during a command performance of The Red Detachment of Women. These days, however, as China stakes its claim to a proportionate share of the world market – and Chinese investors fund the U.S. debt – the resentment and growing hostility of the Americans is all too palpable.

Why do politicians of Pelosi’s ilk join hands with neoconservatives in a concerted campaign to antagonize China, and even threaten sanctions and possible military action when the occasion gives rise to the opportunity?

To begin with, China’s is a success story, and there’s nothing that attracts opprobrium like success, unless it’s success of the wrong color – in this case, yellow. A crude racist collectivism of a specifically anti-Asian character has long been a tradition of the War Party in this country: see the anti-Japanese Dr. Seuss cartoons from the World War II era for a particularly vivid example. Yes, he was attacking the “Japs,” but to Americans, it’s all the same Yellow Peril. This kind of sentiment is easily invoked in America, and don’t tell me Pelosi and her ideological confreres aren’t aware of it – yes, even in “liberal” San Francisco, where anti-Asian sentiment is part of the city’s history.

Never mind the first black president, or the first female president – what I’m waiting for is the first chief executive of Asian-American descent. I’m not, however, holding my breath…

Relations with China are cloudy, at best, and those may very well be war clouds gathering on the horizon. The reason is that Sinophobia is a point of unity between the Left and the Right: the union of the Weekly Standard and the AFL-CIO, and perhaps even the majority of my paleoconservative friends, who quail before the rising Chinese giant and see it as a potential threat on account of its sheer scale – a third of the world’s population, and a land-mass that rivals our own. Surely such a stirring titan will knock us out of the way as he takes his place at the center of the world stage.

This reflects a fundamental error on the part of many conservatives, as well as liberals of the more statist persuasion. They fail to understand that there are no conflicts of interest among nations as long as their relations are governed by the market, that is by mutually beneficial trade agreements voluntarily entered into. Ludwig von Mises said it far better than I could ever manage, and I’ll leave my readers to Mises’ ministrations on this abstruse but important subject.
Suffice to say here that our relations with China on the economic front are a benefit to American consumers – that is, to all of us. They enable us to buy inexpensive quality products and keep the cost of living down. Protectionists who argue that “they” are “destroying American jobs” are simply arguing for higher prices – ordinarily not a very popular cause, and especially not these days.

Free trade is the economic precondition for a peaceful world and the logical corollary of a non-interventionist foreign policy. If goods don’t cross borders, then armies soon will – a historical truism noted by many before me, and with good reason. Let it be a warning to all those anti-free trade, antiwar types of the Right as well as the Left – you’ll soon be jumping on the War Party’s bandwagon when it comes China’s turn to play the role of global bogeyman. The way things are going, that day may come soon enough.

Finally, a word or two about this nonsensical demand, raised by the “Save Darfur” crowd, that China must somehow “extinguish the flames of genocide” supposedly carried out by the government of Sudan. What does China have to do with Sudan and its government? Well, you see, the Chinese have oil interests in the region, that is, they are engaged in competition with Western oil companies in opening up new fields – and, well, that just isn’t permissible.

The Chinese, we are told, have a moral responsibility to either pressure the Sudanese to let up on Darfur, or else abandon their Sudanese assets. As if Sudan were a Chinese colony, and the Sudanese authorities mere sock-puppets of Beijing.
A more arrogant and self-serving argument would be hard to imagine. Presumably Western interests will fill the vacuum left by this spontaneous display of Chinese moral rectitude – and that alone should tell us everything we need to know about what’s behind the “Save Darfur” bloviators and their high-horse moralizing.

If our professional do-gooders of the “progressive” persuasion are so concerned about the fate of Darfur, let them campaign for the granting of mass asylum to the survivors of this latest African catastrophe. Give them sanctuary and green cards, but keep U.S. troops out of Africa, specifically out of Darfur – and get off Beijing’s back.

Like Russia, China is awakening from the long Leninist nightmare, albeit less traumatically, and with greater prospects for full recovery. However, it wouldn’t take much to push it back into a revival of neo-Maoism – or worse – and a new dark age triggered by an external threat. A resurgence of Chinese ultra-nationalism in response to Western pressure – and the specter of U.S.-sponsored separatism – does not augur well for the cause of world peace. As is so often the case, we are creating the very enemies we fear, empowering and arming them ideologically. We are, in this sense, our own worst enemies.
~ Justin Raimondo

wow, so if they decided to start, i dunno lets say randomly taking peoples babies and murdering them, for nothing but fun or lets actually take this a step futher, they decided to exterminate half there population because they felt like it for fun you’d be ok with that?

Dont try to paint the picture black, they are humans not monsters. If people strat murdering babies, everyone in the heart of the happenings will get infuriate and would step in. No need to be dump, when PRC wouldn’t be that dump either.

I wonder if you’d feel the same about the tiny amount of prisoners in camp x-ray if we started killing them for fun?

Well Im not denying your rigth to be pissed off over such crimes, Only that you cannot act sincerely to stop it when it happens in national wide level. Government is supposed to be the byrocratic element of the people it governs, it cannot be taken out by other element to which that people doesent belong, or to be issued into power by someone else. Otherwise you never achieve true democracy or people’s power.

Consider yourself how would you feel if suddenly some Muslim superpower gets pissed of by your doings in Guantanamo and then comes and reinstalls a government that would follow what in their mind is rigth and what is wrong.

Also you don’t think democracy would be better for China then the appaling communist regime – where the people get to choose there future rather then having a small group (relativley) of elites choose it for them?

1.Communism isent opposite to democracy
2. China isent communist state, it hasen’t even properly achieved socialism. Dont get fooled by names that some party uses.

I wonder how you would feel if a small group of elites in your country decided to run the show, remember they might not like the things you do, such as connecting to the internet and they might not hold the same value for human rights as you do, somehow sir i don’t think you’d appreciate it, do you?

I would rebel and rose into barricades. Haven’t you been following my stance? What Im saying is that If chinese people gets pissed of by their gov. they are the ones that should rebel…
But I would be terribly pissed off if some foreing power would come and use our revolution as attempt to install their own puppet into power so that I would suddenly come a pawn for some foreing hegemony.

The need and will of improving HR record must come from chinese population themselves. We cannot go and think say what they should feel bad and what not. No regime can be fundamentally stronger than the people, and if Chinese people are fed up with their govrenment, they are the sole ones that has the rigth to uppset it.

So we others shouldn’t do anything, if we want to be honest and non hegemonical. If we want to have chinese people in our own leach, then there are plenty of ways we can do it, but personally I believe that it wont be anyway better situation for Chinese than the current regime would be.

wow, so if they decided to start, i dunno lets say randomly taking peoples babies and murdering them, for nothing but fun or lets actually take this a step futher, they decided to exterminate half there population because they felt like it for fun you’d be ok with that? You wouldn’t expect a global outcry or any sort of pressure to be put on the Chinese? I wonder if you’d feel the same about the tiny amount of prisoners in camp x-ray if we started killing them for fun? Also you don’t think democracy would be better for China then the appaling communist regime – where the people get to choose there future rather then having a small group (relativley) of elites choose it for them? I wonder how you would feel if a small group of elites in your country decided to run the show, remember they might not like the things you do, such as connecting to the internet and they might not hold the same value for human rights as you do, somehow sir i don’t think you’d appreciate it, do you?

The need and will of improving HR record must come from chinese population themselves. We cannot go and think say what they should feel bad and what not. No regime can be fundamentally stronger than the people, and if Chinese people are fed up with their govrenment, they are the sole ones that has the rigth to uppset it.

So we others shouldn’t do anything, if we want to be honest and non hegemonical. If we want to have chinese people in our own leach, then there are plenty of ways we can do it, but personally I believe that it wont be anyway better situation for Chinese than the current regime would be.

Well there is difference in numbers, I agree and PRC isent saint in this issue. However, the issue is about posturing a morale superiority, and against that pose, the Guantanamo Bay and Water torture simply dont fit in.
Relatively if you look, US is lot better place for man to live than PRC, Im not denying that, but In order for US to boast of PRC HR reccord, it needs to clear its own back yard first. Otherwise you have douple standards.

Human rigths are newer “drop on the ocean”. Its either you brake them or you dont. You cant go on for braking them and yet claim you are better than others who brake them. Its a door that needs to keep closed, even if its let chink, its still open

ok then, since America wasn’t the issue in the first place, merely a distraction, what do you think other countries such as oh i don’t know – Finland for example should do about Chinas disgusting abuses of human rights? Say nothing or try to get them to treat human beings with respect as they signed up to do as part of the UN, surely we can talk about China with having to bring evil Yankee into the discussion?

Well there is difference in numbers, I agree and PRC isent saint in this issue. However, the issue is about posturing a morale superiority, and against that pose, the Guantanamo Bay and Water torture simply dont fit in.
Relatively if you look, US is lot better place for man to live than PRC, Im not denying that, but In order for US to boast of PRC HR reccord, it needs to clear its own back yard first. Otherwise you have douple standards.

Human rigths are newer “drop on the ocean”. Its either you brake them or you dont. You cant go on for braking them and yet claim you are better than others who brake them. Its a door that needs to keep closed, even if its let chink, its still open

Ok, hit me with numbers there;) Im not saying that Guantanamo Bay presents US or west most proper way, But its foolish to think that PRC is all about HR reccord.
PRC has its faults yeas, but so does the west and when claiming of “morale superiority” You simply cannot make violations of your own as you at same breathtake bash others from it.
So Im eager to hear why you think US can torture and brake human rigths, as well as Why US is allowed resist all attempts to create common UN led War-crime tribunal, but PRC cannot?
Is west more equal than china?;)

i Would agree that the US should not be abusing human rights, however to play this moral equivilence game you seem so fond of. Trouble is though for you Americas and basically alomost ever other country in the world simply pales in insignificance when you compare human rights abuses in China to them. All you have got is camp x-ray and water boarding, how many are even in camp x ray, maybe a few hundred, now with China we can look at more then two issues, infact there are hundreds and hundreds of human rights issues, involving litteraly millions and millions of people, its like comparing a grain of sand (America and whole rest of worlds human rights ills) to a freaking beach ball if you can understand that awful analogy. Yes we have issues in the west (not just evil yankee btw as much as many would love to only focus on them) but our human rights issues are a mere drop in the ocean when compared to what China does, until you can recognise this and stop crying b..b..but camp x-ray and using that as an excuse for brutal human rights in China there simply is no point debating the subject with you.

China most certainly abused with the grossest human rights violations on its population into owning cars, new condominiums, owning celphones, and working in shiny high rise buildings. Nowadays, when American-Chinese visits relatives in the mainland, the much humanly abused mainlanders are driving them around in their own Mercedes or BMWs while their visitors are feeling like country bumpkins. And its so abusive of the Beijing goverment, really to ban all Mobies from the roads, to make the roads safe for Audis and Buicks! We demand the human right to drive Mobies in the crowded streets like a lunatic!

Man, its so nasty of the Chinese government to LIMIT children from playing MMOs for more than 3 hours each day. We absolutely must demand our Divine Right to play World of Warcraft 24 hours each day. That is so abusive, we must invade China and change their gaming policies to save the two or three million World of Warcraft players in China, plus all the other millions that play those Korean games. And yes better wages and living conditions for the games “gold farmers”. In the meantime, we will force them to stop the banning of the Death Note manga from schools. After all if kids want the right to write their teacher’s name on the Death Note (meaning the name written upon will face an untimely death: watch the show in Cartoon Network’s Adult Swim) by all means they should be allowed.

Itake it from your post you know absolutly zero about the current state of human rights in China, go learn about it and then come back and join in, your simply wasting time and space otherwise.If the only human rights abuses you can point out are restrictions on video game playing then i think you simply prove your either an apolagist of the Chinese human rights or uneducated on the subject of human rights in China, big fail for you sir.

And how did the USSR’s mighty military capacity protect it from breaking up?
First understand the context in which things are spoken!

And was USSR broken by western aggression:rolleyes:
Indeed we should understand what we are talking about…

And anyway, comparing PRC to USSR in these issues are rather ridicolous as most of the fundamental differencies in PRCs and USSR comes in their attitude toward their military.

And why do you keep saying that?Do you feel guilty inside for taking the other side here and is trying to justify to yourself?No need to answer that question..but think yourself.

To boast my ego, im so much in love with:diablo: :diablo: No, mainly that some guys who constantly claim me hating china would see the real me, and my real stance towards china.

And they have no right to be doing so. It causes far more problems than it solves.

Well put and I could not agree more. Wow seriously some very interesting replies from all here.

IMO the right of sovereignty and self determination for all nations, whether independent or within a freely entered into federation should be a right for all and if that point of view makes me naive then I’m guilty as charged but it would not make me change my point of view. China is seriously in the wrong here and if Govts will not get involved then it surely falls to the ordinary ‘joes’ like us to do their bit. NO Olympics….and where possible a total boycott of Chinese goods. It has to start somewhere!:mad:

If you want to make it moral then the west has no legs to stand on. Simply by declaring those who went to Guantanimo noncombatants and giving them no legal rights… even basic ones and human beings what the US is saying is these are not humans they are animals and we will do with them what we like. We don’t need to tell them what the charge is or even if they are being charged. They get no legal representation. If we decide to release them then we will otherwise we will hold them as long as we like and torture them with sleep deprivation and water torture and other means.
Even Stalin let the accused know what the charges were and gave them a show trial before sending them off to Siberia for 10 years. It seems you can spend 5 years in Guantanimo in a cage and be released and never be told why you were being held.

Yeah China and Russia have a lot to learn from the US…

As far as I have read and seen these guys down at gitmo, or CLUB GITMO as I like to call it, get 3 squares a day, can pray in accordance with their beliefs (as in what times etc etc)………((does anybody remeber the bull**** story of the korans/Korans(not sure the correct spelling, dont wana offend/no offense intended) being flushed?))…………..just one thing that comes to mind)

Honestly, this whole situation with “terrorist” sucks, because in my uneducated opinion they do not fall under the Geneva Convention, therefore, what are we to do? Start another convention?

Honestly, I ask this question in all seriousness. Because any of you, while we may disagree, dam well know that if another “convention” is held and a set of laws are set in place, well itll still be some sort of western crusade against the middle east/muslims, no matter what the convention comes to hold true.

Garry, I gota say I love ya. (In a friendly way thats it 😀 )But to say Stalin gave a show trial and then gave 10 yrs is better than guys staying in gitmo?…..pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…………….gimmie a break. It aint perfect, is it? Question is, will we ever be perfect? Any of us that is? of course not. But to compare a bad midnite pick up, in jail for 5 yrs (like i said, 3 squares a day, all prayer privileges, etc etc) to a Soviet gulag………you cant even stretch that much can you? Maybe you can and its fine, but thats just my idea.

Oh and by the way, I am not fully aware of international law, but i dam well know the US Constitution….and, im sure a lot will hate to hear this, but as far as I am concerned if you are not a US citizen you have no rights under the US Constitution, but then again, im just an uneducated idiot. But that opens a whole nother can of worms.

Anyways, its Friday nite here in Pennsylvania, USA. Hope your all having a good one out there, we’ll keep chatting even if it takes us to our graves :diablo: Have a good weekend guys, talk to ya nextime.

If you want to make it moral then the west has no legs to stand on. Simply by declaring those who went to Guantanimo noncombatants and giving them no legal rights… even basic ones and human beings what the US is saying is these are not humans they are animals and we will do with them what we like. We don’t need to tell them what the charge is or even if they are being charged. They get no legal representation. If we decide to release them then we will otherwise we will hold them as long as we like and torture them with sleep deprivation and water torture and other means.
Even Stalin let the accused know what the charges were and gave them a show trial before sending them off to Siberia for 10 years. It seems you can spend 5 years in Guantanimo in a cage and be released and never be told why you were being held.

Yeah China and Russia have a lot to learn from the US…

..And the kids that I have banned from SDF should see me now:diablo:

And why do you keep saying that?Do you feel guilty inside for taking the other side here and is trying to justify to yourself?No need to answer that question..but think yourself.

And when has West and USSR fougth against each other:rolleyes:

And how did the USSR’s mighty military capacity protect it from breaking up?:rolleyes:
First understand the context in which things are spoken!

West doesen’t win this one, we are (unfortuanetly) past, china is future, you’ve miss your stop if keep such dreams….

Human beings by nature are a free spirit.It cannot be supressed for long by military regimes.It will break the shackles and surely find a way.And I am not talking about Tibet.

You don’t seem to be able to grasp how silly the game of moral equivalence makes you look, yes America has human rights issues, as do many other nations your convenietnly ignoring from the argument, however the Human rights abuses carried out by America and for that matter almost the whole of the rest of the damn planet bar a few other nasty nations such as North Korea simply pale in comparison to the abuses China conducts on it population. Does the fact we or alot of the rest of the world are not perfect mean we should turn our backs and say ‘stuff em let em do as they please’ ? No of course it dosn’t and you know that as well as i do.

China most certainly abused with the grossest human rights violations on its population into owning cars, new condominiums, owning celphones, and working in shiny high rise buildings. Nowadays, when American-Chinese visits relatives in the mainland, the much humanly abused mainlanders are driving them around in their own Mercedes or BMWs while their visitors are feeling like country bumpkins. And its so abusive of the Beijing goverment, really to ban all Mobies from the roads, to make the roads safe for Audis and Buicks! We demand the human right to drive Mobies in the crowded streets like a lunatic!

Man, its so nasty of the Chinese government to LIMIT children from playing MMOs for more than 3 hours each day. We absolutely must demand our Divine Right to play World of Warcraft 24 hours each day. That is so abusive, we must invade China and change their gaming policies to save the two or three million World of Warcraft players in China, plus all the other millions that play those Korean games. And yes better wages and living conditions for the games “gold farmers”. In the meantime, we will force them to stop the banning of the Death Note manga from schools. After all if kids want the right to write their teacher’s name on the Death Note (meaning the name written upon will face an untimely death: watch the show in Cartoon Network’s Adult Swim) by all means they should be allowed.

Ask Washington, London, Beijing and Moscow……they have been doing it for decades.

And they have no right to be doing so. It causes far more problems than it solves.

And I am sure you know about the military capacity of the “erstwhile” USSR?
Military is not all.Its a part of the equation.The US and west will win.Whether anybody likes it or not.

And when has West and USSR fougth against each other:rolleyes:
West doesen’t win this one, we are (unfortuanetly) past, china is future, you’ve miss your stop if keep such dreams….

…And the kids that I have banned from SDF should see me now:diablo:

This strange attitude to gaining so called freedom by having illegal protests is a big con.In many countries which have gained democratic freedoms since ww2 the actual conditions for the majority of people have got worse.

The minority stir up trouble and wreck the lives of the majority who are managing to make the best of living in a poor country. It takes time to improve the conditions in countries with mostly rural populations. Sadly there are those who are impatient and they believe that the grass is always greener in a democracy.

Civil unrest is a huge destructive force when unleashed and the innocent suffer greatly and the rule of law replaced with anarchy. Peaceful progress takes time but has far less bloodshed.

I presume that you are not that aware of chinese military capacity

And I am sure you know about the military capacity of the “erstwhile” USSR?
Military is not all.Its a part of the equation.The US and west will win.Whether anybody likes it or not.