snafuSorry. I tried to hold back from replying, I really did. But I failed then and I’ve failed now.
snafuMy info was that there was not a lot more on board than would preserve its seaworthiness.
Mind you, usually by the time the MoD gets around to inviting tenders for disposal the vessel is well beyond preservation – HMS Intrepid was, to quote a navy officer escort when I got to go on her at Portsmouth Dockyard in the late 1990s, beyond any help because there were places you could push a finger through the hull. I asked how she would be towed away for scrapping and we joked about her sinking en route; funnily enough her sister ship Fearless was decommissioned later and scrapped (in Belgium 2007) before Intrepid was (probably nervously) towed away to be scrapped near Liverpool (2009).
snafuEnglish as John knows it is dead. Or dying a slow and painfully drawn out death.
It always has, since he left school over 175 years ago. These days there is much less Latin taught, nothing about the Empire in any lesson (except maybe a bit in history), and they even allow (whisper it softly) the female gender into classes now. The only slate is on the roofs of the oldest buildings and chalk replaced by gypsum: the cane has been replaced by being made to sit quietly wherever you feel happiest and think hard about your actions until you have considered your actions – or for one minute, whichever longer. Smoking behind the bikeshed is no longer compulsory.
Pure English, in Britain, has been replaced by Yoof, a mixture of vague Americanisms out of West Indian inflections, vulgar Chavish cadences, and whatever most annoys their elders spoken in a couldn’t care less fashion with aggressive overtones. As you might imagine, John hates it.
Rest in peace. No flowers.
snafuI do wish they had taken you with them… Not back, you understand.
snafu…your rose tinted glasses…
John doesn’t wear rose tinted glasses, just those special ones that narrow the vision and restrict the wearer from looking anywhere but to the right.
snafuPresumably since this was a vessel ‘driven’ by a ‘local’?
Which does raise the question of how many manned former spacecraft are on display, worldwide, and how many in the UK.
And how many John Green has seen.
snafuI presume the weather wasn’t seen as an issue for a flight that was only supposed to be of 350-400 mile duration and that was presumably intended to finish well before dark?
Even full hurricane?
snafuAnd why would these publications commemorate an anniversary as much as one day early? ;o)
I am assuming that these news websites might only roll over by date as midnight (or midnight plus one minute, as it is on some sites) passes, although possibly they could be waiting until the exact hour of the anniversary?
Original poster posted at 8:09 GMT; I recall reading that Churchill was holding a dinner when informed about the attack, so this post could have been twelve hours early.
Wondering if Andy Saunders is going to go and advertise on the other Pearl Harbour (don’t pander to those infernal colonials and their savaging of the language, damnit!!!) threads…;o)
snafuTaylor said:”Both of my compasses are out…”
What had probably actually happened is that Taylor had expected to see land in a certain orientation but, after being blown further out into the Atlantic, he saw different island groups than the ones he was expecting; to make the orientation of these islands ‘fit’ where he was supposed to be he assumed that both his compasses had failed because that was the only way it made sense to him.
At this point there was radio conversation between the different aircraft in Flight 19 and the compasses of the other aircraft agreed with both of Taylor’s ‘faulty’ compasses; what are the chances of all the compasses (that were consulted) all being faulty at the same time and by the same amount?
Surely aircraft carry two or more compasses in case of failure so it is reasonable to assume that the two compasses are independent in operation; the question therefore is if Taylor is sure both his compasses have ‘failed’ what is he comparing them to?
Out over the ocean Taylor was happy with his compasses, it was only when he saw land, land that was the ‘wrong way round’ that he suspected he had faulty compasses.
Please don’t forget that the Avengers were supposed to have clocks on board as well – might there not be some reason to assume that some other instruments were also missing, say, the odd compass or two?
Taylor would have been in overall charge because he was the instructor; the others were pilots under training so presumably they ‘bowed’ to the knowledge of the experienced man on the scene. It has been put that he was not a particularly confident pilot – so why was he an instructor? – with a nasty habit of getting lost; maybe these were things that shouldn’t have been allowed to happen, but they did…
Think about what Taylor was actually suggesting! After flying maybe 150 miles out into the Atlantic Taylor suddenly suggests the whole flight had been blown at least 50 miles back past where they had started from! How? You don’t think they’d have noticed that 200 mile-per-hour headwind at some point?
In fact, it was even a more ridiculous suggestion than that because Flight 19 had already done some bombing practice on another island group and they didn’t think they were over the Florida Keys then, so they would have to have been blown these 200 miles since then. What headwind could have done that? Presumably one that would have had them flying backwards as they looked at the islands below?
Found this on the Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale Museum Flight 19 page:
The squadron’s flight plan was scheduled to take them due east from Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale for 141 miles, north for 73 miles, and then back over a final 140-mile leg to complete the exercise. Flight 19’s location was last given as 75 miles northeast of Cocoa, Florida. At that time the planes had slightly more than one hour’s fuel supply. They may actually have been as much as 200 miles at sea. Meanwhile, weather and sea conditions got worse, as the evening wore on. It was reported by the airport weather station at Miami, that a large area of turbulent air rolled out of a storm centered over Georgia, sweeping over Jacksonville about noon, and reaching Miami by nightfall. Squalls on the surface, 40 mile winds at 1,000 feet, and full hurricane of 75 miles an hour at 8,000 feet, was recorded at 4:00pm.
Slightly confusing in parts – when exactly did they have one hour’s fuel remaining, for example, and full hurricane?
Have not seen that there was a hurricane(!) taking place at the time, on top of everything else, on the other sites I have viewed, but it does seem to indicate that there were problems that may or may not have been indicated to the flight before they set off, not helped in the least the fact that Taylor turned up late (without known explanation) and delayed take off – did he receive a weather briefing, perhaps?
snafuWhich part of the Falklands was Illustrious from, exactly?
snafuThree-time Formula One champion Lewis Hamilton will escape punishment for his controversial tactics at the recently concluded season ending Abu Dhabi Grand Prix race, confirmed Mercedes’ non-executive chairman Niki Lauda.
There’s a surprise – now they’ve lost Rosberg who could see them cheesing off Hamilton enough for him to walk away as well?
snafuThere was nothing wrong with their compasses (three on each aircraft I believe), there was something wrong with their navigation. It is a classic mistake with navigation: trying to make your instruments (compass) agree with where you are sure you are, or think you are, or where you want to be.
The fact that all their compasses were faulty seems strange (unless you want to buy-into the whole Bermuda Triangle nonsense); no, their compasses weren’t all wrong, they were all right!
I did not say that ALL the compasses were not working – Taylor, the instructor, said his compass was not working:
FT-74 tried again and a man identified as FT-28 (Taylor) came on. “FT-28, this is FT-74, what is your trouble?” “Both of my compasses are out”, Taylor replied
That others had working compasses can be deduced from the fact that they fly particular bearings – at one point Taylor wanted them on 030 (NNE-ish – can’t find the link now) so must have had someone else take the formation lead. And for those who wonder why the others didn’t attempt to take control:
At some point the crew tried to communicate between themselves: Ensign Bossi, and also Capt. Powers separately, tried to take control (Powers was higher in rank than the pilot leader, but still a student on the Avenger). They both communicated with the Squadron leader suggesting that they should be correcting their course.
snafuYes, thank you but you have mentioned this before.
English as a language is dead, that is my primary excuse. The ordinary user has no ability to edit the thread title, that is the other.
snafu…If you had a working compass, of course.
(The reports list that there was communication saying some of their compasses were not working)
snafuHe was only ‘Genial’ Harry Grout for three episodes of Porridge, you know…
British actor Peter Vaughan, best known for roles in Game of Thrones and Porridge, has died at the age of 93.
He played Maester Aemon in the HBO series and Grouty in the TV sitcom.
His many other roles included parts in TV shows Citizen Smith, Chancer and Our Friends in the North.
Sign In
