Remember one more thing. All of those so called prototypes flew. And most would have still out classed a Typhoon. Its rumored that YF-23 supercruised above mach 2. This isnt about rah rah America is great. Im asking how Europe lost its mojo. And can they get it back?
a NATO country is doing the opposite


of course all these things are basically advanced variants of something else
TFX – Typhoon with stealth
Altay tank – enlarged Korean K2
T129 – Mangusta with more mongoose
etc
don’t be surprised when you see Poland buy some
Yes let’s include the Turks and does Israel count?
no
Turkey borders Bulgaria and Greece
Israel borders Egypt and ISIS
Turkey is in NATO
Israel is NOT-O
10 million people live in European part of Turkey
No european part of Israel.
http://theaviationist.com/2014/02/25/mysterious-bae-replica/ersonally, If it was up to me I would offer the BAE replica as the design to save The European fighter business.
I would offer co development for both the French, and Euro-Fighter.
well if it makes you feel better
there is a NATO country in the south east of Europe that is building a new fighter that is basically Eurofighter with a stealth shell.
its an upgrade
at least the Chinese are not doing this anymore

So do all agree that Russia will stay away from the low end markets, and build heavy fighters from now on?
no.
low end markets will buy heavy.

because of F-35
Russia is still not pro- Assad or what ever yet. it is just balancing it. Once it become pro some thing you will see the end of Middleast as you see it. starting with no flyzone from Syrian Coast all the way to northern airline route.
Russia is not bankrupt EU that need to sell anything. it is more favor and balancing.
The more Russia become military powerfull the more under the table investments from rich Arabs.
sorry jihad johnny, Russia is not selling ISIS weapons.
but if you so strongly desire to meet your 72 virgins, Russian weapons can be very effective in granting your wish.
Now that Putin and Xi Jinping are bros maybe Russia will join the J-31 project. Should be a global best seller with this tie up. Plus Shenyang has a long standing working relationship with the Russians.
lol shenyang probably has something beyond a working relationship with the Russians
j-31 could be possible

Su-30M2 is based on Chinese versions. You are probably referring to Su-30SM.
Russia is certainly going to be the junior partner because in terms of economy and population is nowhere near China,
yes you are right, my mistake. and I agree
the problem with India that deals takes long time to materialize. so its impact is very small. Russia will look to Middleast to sell and faster recoup the money.
sorry. Russia is not selling to ISIS. I know you would love for it to happen and you’re too broke to go to Syria to volunteer.. But Russia is pro-Assad okay Mr. Daesh.
The OP is mistaken Soviet mil aviation for Russian mil aviation. Similar is theory. Much different in reality.
If Russia had the Warpact and CIS funneling development funds into their war machine it would be very threatening. As it is now they rely on China and India more than its old Soviet allies. It relies on NGO’s more to battle the West than its military. It even tried to manipulate the oil market, but the Saudis screwed them over.
Not enough allies, time or money.
that’s a good point.. the Russian market is different than the Soviet one. With the economy contracting and China’s expanding, it is logical that Russia has been keen to develop new projects together with China on a number of things such as cargo and airliners.
But eventually China will probably be the dominant one and their relationship might end up like US and S.Korean arms industry.
That’d be stretching the definition of “rather current” quite a bit. While it certainly may be competitive to the World’s average, if one wants to compare it with that – it’s far from being competitive with what World’s premier air forces are procuring right now.
So su-30m2 is being procured as we speak for Ruaf. Lets see what is being procured for other strong air forces:
US: F-35, Superhornet.
UK, France: Typhoon, Rafale
China: j10b, j11b
Israel: currently preparing to get f-35, last orders were of F-16I
India: su-30mki, TejasIndia is closest i guess, but even there su30mki should be quite visibly more capable. Only Tejas might be seen as less capable…
Issues i have with su-30m2:
Its airframe is based on su-30 dating from end of Cold war.
Its engines are, performance wise, not much better than initial al-31f. Yes, they have longer life and perhaps better selfdiagnostics but all in all they’re still old Al-31s.
Its weight to thrust ratio is behind the most planes listed above at something like 28 tons / 247 kn of thrust (with 4,5 tons of fuel and 3 tons of ordenance/pylons)
Its range is poor compared to most planes listed above at 3000 km of ferry range. Translating probably into something like 1000ish km hi-hi mission with a few tons of ordenance.
Its radar still has an antenna of very old design, superseded in the West back in the 1980s. The back end of the radar is probably much newer but still – antenna must be holding it back quite a bit.
It has no visible missile approach warning system, as opposed to most other planes on the list.Of course, in case i’m misinformed on some of these points, please do point it out. And yes, some systems can be replaced with newer variants. But that’s beside the point. Currently they’re what they are. Just as f-22 had older weapons for years, just typhoon lacked/lacks proper air to ground capabilities etc. In theory lots can be modernized. In practice, that’s a process that often takes 10-15 years.
Anyhow, I understand the political need for su-30m2 within ruaf, and as long as their numbers stay at what has been ordered so far it’ll be fine, as ruaf needs some trainers as well. The above lists are written on plane v plane merit, without the broader context. I actually have a bigger beef against su-30sm, which, while more modern than su30m2, still shares a lot of the same issues and, what is worse, does seem to be procured in far larger numbers.
I think you have your Sukhoi variants mixed up. Its okay. there’s too many out there anyways.
But Su-30M2 is a low risk option. Already developed with Indian and Malaysian money. modern and up to date, ready to replace legacy Su-27 and 30 airframes.
EADS Mako?
never flew or built.
That would depend upon the purpose. If there is a nation out there that wants a short ranged, interceptor that can take off, fly fast carry 4-5 missiles than you most certainly can make it small and light weight. When you do however begin to pile on requirements for fuel and a multi-role payload you do end up increasing the size. I see most nations that have ongoing projects developing multi role aircraft even though we have (Turkey and South Korea) that have presented small and light proposals.
not sure if what Turkey and South Korea is making light fighters.
if i recall correctly.. Turkey Bacon decided on a twin EJ-2000 engine based design. that’ll likely put it in medium range.
No idea what Gangnam style is doing..but seems like they’ll do something similar.. maybe with F414s.
The only light stealth I’ve seen so far is that Japanese ATD-X..but it got no bays and isnt intended to be a working fighter.
Saab J35NJ
could you do one where you mix just the draken and the f-35?
something like draken wings, f-35 intakes and engine and tail