Bacon, which types do you have particularly in mind?
my tasty friend. lets just talk about the whole system in general.
The US retired the F-111, SR-71, F-106. Do you think its ability to do interceptions and bombings have been reduced?
Makes little sense even if the PAF had the luxury in ordering the T-50. A twin seat JF-17 would probably be a better choice and be fully combat capable. The L-15 would be a more suitable alternative for pilots graduating from the K-8P. I think historically the PAF has relied on twin seat versions of their combat aircraft for lead in training, rather than a dedicated LIFT. There’s strong arguments for both, but I think there’s greater efficiencies to be had in OCUs.
twin seat JF-17
is the IAR 95
If we always agreed with each other, it would make little sense to come to the forums..
One has to see that Russians are trying to maximize the potential their industry can offer.. Let the force adopt the returned MiG-29SMTs, let NAZ supply the Su-34s, let KnAAZ make the top-of-notch Su-35s and develop the T-50 and in the meantime let’s stock up the numbers by IAZ. Oh, they only have that weird Western version – nevermind… few basic mods and we’re done..Can’t quite agree… There are no other types… the only one that requires some degree of explanation is the Su-30M2. And IMHO this version came instead of an upgrade programme for the existing Su-27UBs which was finally not adopted, most likely due to high airframe hours. So, alongside the upgraded Su-27SM and few new-built Su-27SM3 you don’t get any upgraded Su-27UBM, only new built ones – and for that, a separate programme makes little sense when there is the already developed and very successful Su-30MKK/MK2, which you can use practically without mods. Bang, there comes the Su-30M2..
wasn’t referring just to the Su-30s, but the AF acquisition as a whole. A number of it is simply a jobs creation program when in reality some of the other air frames can do the same job with out requiring the need for a new airframe with its logistics and maintenance needs. Reflects the bigger problem of plants doing their own things. Fortunately the army seems to be moving in a better direction with the Armata and Kurganets series.
So the F35 versions are heavy fighters? Interesting that they are always compared to light fighters. 😉
I’d say lights are a very good compromise. They offer a very good foundation for the rest of the air force with a jet that can do pretty much everything, is always available and most of all is a cheap option for pretty much any task.
When it comes to medium… why would you want an F15 instead of a Rafale? After all the Rafale has loads of hardpoints and can carry a lot externally. Heck, the Rafale even carries more payload on the pylons than the F35 and the Su35. But that is on bomb truck missions, in other cases like interdiction, AA with long loitering etc the costs of a medium fighter are much lower than for a heavy fighter.
I don’t think anyone ever said the f-35 is a light fighter.
its length is closer to a light fighter, its weight is at the upper end of medium, at least for the A version. the C goes into heavy category.
If what DJCross says is true, wouldn’t the F-15 and Su-35 airframe have better ability to carry more sensors than the F-35 and Rafale over a longer range?
Indian Su-30MKI with Israeli El-Op SU-967 HUD and western style control column (UAP5-13 indicator, ITE-2TB2 tachometer, INP-R indicator, Izd781 clock and western-type artificial horizon). Malaysian Su-30MKM with removed Israeli contents (Thales VEH-3022 HUD). All stencils in English..
[ATTACH=CONFIG]236908[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]236907[/ATTACH]
Russian Su-30SM, almost a copy of the MKM layout but with standard basic control column as found on all Russian jets (compare to Su-30M2)
All stencils in cyrillics, incl. push buttons, with the exception of AMLCD controls which are kept in English..[ATTACH=CONFIG]236906[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]236905[/ATTACH]
This is what I like about the forum. I learn something new, even if I don’t always agree with xyz person.
A long time ago, before the Su-35S was developed and when the Su-30MKM was the most advanced Flanker..
I joked around that the Russian AF should modernize by simply adopting the Su-30MKI/MKM since the Indians already sunk money into its development, was an up to date modern system, multi role, and low-risk
didn’t think they’d actually do that…
and unfortunately, adopt a bunch of other types for the sake of job creation.
PAF Considering T-50 for LIFT
if that’s true, I’m going to laugh
lol
The digital revolution in airplanes has allowed consolidation of many specialized configurations, within limits. You no longer need specialized interceptors, A2A fighters, A2G fighters and CAS airplanes. Sensors, computers and software allow a single type to perform those tasks, without needing a year for a pilot to become proficient in those roles.
Typically, size provides more ability to house better/more sensors, provide power and cooling for those sensors, more weapons, and more fuel which provides range/endurance.
Sounds like what K.Plummer would say. Go big or don’t go at all. a supersonic trainer like a Golden Eagle good enough for air policing
If an Air Force is willing to compromise on sensors, weapons and endurance, then a medium-sized jet could be the ticket.
sounds like a huge compromise.
True, but the original question is why is no one interested in J-10? Anyone looking for cheap has other alternatives like JF-17 you’ve said, and anyone has some money goes for MiG-29 at the least.
Question is where does J-10 stand? Most will disagree with my opinion but; as it is, it doesn’t offer much more than JF-17:
-Avionics: KLJ-7 Radar is derivative of KLJ-10, both J-10 and JF-17 aircraft have more or less similar avionics sets.
-Maneuverability: personally, I don’t believe J-10A has kinematics advantage over F-16 or MiG-29; It has good wing area (which may fool some uneducated to conclude its maneuverable), but no thrust to overcome the drag comes with it. In fact, it has slightly more wing area than MiG-29, yet less thrust than F-16. With low wing loading and canards, J-10 will make good instantenius turns, but esspecially at low altitude its excess power will be laughable when compared to these types. So it doesn’t offer much above JF-17 in this area as well.
-Range: JF-17 has impressive range quotes even more than J-10, if one swallows it.
-Costs: JF-17 possibly costs 2/3 of J-10 at the least, and possibly costs half as much to operate.
-Payload: JF-17 can carry 6 AAMs, and it can be considered sufficent by buyer. J-10 carries same A-G munitions, just more of them. With half operating costs, one can always use two JF-17s for doing the same job.When compared to more expensive MiG-29/35:
-MiG-35 may or may not have better avionics set, open for debate. Side info is; KLJ-10 is designed with help from Phazotron, and Zhuk radar is designed by Phazotron itself. So I would, personally, put my money on MiG-35 in this area.
-Maneuverability, MiG-35 adds upon MiG-29’s wing area, thrust and weight with almost equal percentage, so it will be same as MiG-29. J-10 is as I’ve stated above.
-Range: MiG-35 outranges J-10.IMHO, this is the reason why no one bothers with J-10.
the range thing is surprising. what are the ranges of the jf-17 and j-10?
Su-30M2s aren’t.. Su-34s, too, aren’t..
I see it differently. The development cost of the Su-30SM was close to zero, Russians have simply taken the Su-30MKM devoid of MAWS and LWS, shifted an LCD in the rear cockpit to side for some peculiar reason and that’s it. They did not even bother to pay for a russianized version – that says a lot.
What is the percentage of fighters delivered today having MAWS and LWS if these systems are so critical? Despite all these systems being available, for most countries an F-16C Block 52 with mechanical APG-68(V)9 is still a very advanced aircraft.
are you sure? you’er saying that the Russians and Kazakhs basically bought the Malaysian Flanker including all the foreign stuff included sans MAWS and LWS?
In its original form the MiG-29 was a highly specialised aircraft with little utility outside the mass air war over Germany and Eastern Europe for which it was designed. It can hardly be taken as a proxy for modern Russian aircraft. MTBO was not a concern in the shadow of Götterdämmerung, maximum performance for minimum cost was. The major redesign the Fulcrum has undergone since the Cold War (MiG-29M and from there to MiG-29K) has produced a much more well-rounded platform, better suited to the export market and indeed to Russia’s post-Cold War domestic requirements, at the cost of eroding much of the distinction between itself and the Flanker. Nonetheless, Russia’s failure to take advantage of the existing AL-31 engine and to develop its own J-10-ski represents, perhaps, a greater missed opportunity than that of any other nation.
if it was supposed to be designed for low cost, mass airwar in small airspaces, wouldn’t a single engine design be better?
Sukhoi did have a useful concept but didn’t go with it in the end
speaking of air to ground.
wiki claims KZAF retired their su-24s. but i can’t confirm it with any other sources.
Belarus also retired theirs… then brought them back for whatever reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xghZjSM79rI
Nice drone video of the Su-30SMs arriving.
Also towards the end some maneuvers.
do they replace anything? there are a number of aircraft that will eventually need to be replaced
Some sources list the Kazakh single-seater Flankers as “Su-27BM2” – presumably a Belarus-upgrade along the lines of Su-27UBM2?
Does it mean they could deploy PGMs, as well? Contrary to the double-seaters, I have never seen a single seater armed with one..
don’t they carry Litening? like here
There are rumours that an additional 30 Su-30MKIs will be ordered now..and that the Rafale purchase will be for an additional 18 follow-on jets and that will be it
the future is 5th gen now, with China acquiring the j-20 and Pakistan possibly the j-31. best to reduce their Rafalism and prepare the budget for AMCA and PakFA
stupid Swiss, this is what you get for rejecting the Gripen.
Curse of the Northrop in the donkey