Y-20 BaconIn that direction, yes. Such would’ve been both easier on the French pocketbook — which of course is far more limited than when Rafale was designed — and likely more attractive on the export market as well (save perhaps in Korea and Singapore, where they lost anyway).
funny was that the French were quite close to doing something like that with Serbia..
a single engined rafale in the form of novi avion
Y-20 BaconThanks for the Gripen correction. I had forgotten about hungry and thai and considered check/slovak as a single sale. But Germany doesn’t count for Typhoon as it is local product.
In any case, Gripen stand head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to export success (or lack thereof). Its single engine and low operational cost is a significant contributing factor. This is also why JF17 is getting lots of bites (albeit no sales as yet).
hello sexy stud. you are very welcome.
a few points
1. Cheque and slovak are now separate countries with separate air forces. Cheque has a follow up order and Slovakia just very recently signed a contract to replace their mig-29s with Gripen
2. No one said Germany. Hitler’s homeland is not Germany if you were wondering.
3. Nobody wants JF17 other than Pakistan. not even China themselves. it was basically a monkey model designed just for Pakistan just like the MBT-2000 and 3000. because either China doesn’t want to export their best (perhaps due to the US presence there), or doesn’t trust their domestic industries ability to build it. perhaps both.
Y-20 BaconHi guys … an indeed interesting topic.
Overall I think all points – but one – were already mentioned:
– those countries who can purchase Western types, they decide usually for new, used and/or refurbished F-16s … or even the Gripen.
– those who only can or want to buy a non-Western type have either a too limited budget (so they purchased still the last F-7 types or now they consider the JF-17) or they take the MiG-29 (not that many to admit as mentioned) or even if possible the Su-27/-30.
– also worth, what’s the performance, reliability, maintenance and even more customer service … we really don’t know officially !
– is or was the J-10A already cleared and offered for export ?? … or are these only rumours ?My final missing point is however a PLAAF-/politically related: If we look at the production rate during the final years, it was – at least as long as the F-7/J-7 were still on production – quite limited so that all J-10s (and here it were not more than 1 1/2 or 2 Regiments) produced went directly to the PLA. My question now is: was the production rate only so low due to the fact that the J-7 line was still open, since there was no demand on the A-model or since it was simply not for sale ??? … we need to consider that the improved B-model was also under test and I can think that most potential customers – if interested in a new type – would only take the best version !?
Deino
it would be very interesting to see a modern air force acquire newer Chinese aircraft and compare them to their existing Russian or Western stuff.
in the past, countries like Thailand and others that received Chinese naval ships and tanks often complained about the low quality and hazards. But these are stuff bought in the 80s and 90s. It would be interesting to see how much China changed (or lack of).
Y-20 BaconI would place the emphasis differently: Rafale with two export orders is no better or worse than it was with zero export orders.
And of course Rafale is a superb aircraft. But if France could go back and do it all over with a clean slate, I’m sure a slightly smaller, single-engine design would be very tempting.
in otherwords, another Mirage 2000.
Y-20 BaconApart from Gripen (3 exports?), It is very difficult for non US or Russians to break into the fighter export market. Of the top of my head, here are the sales (to date) of currently available fighters:
Rafale: 2
Eurofighter: 1 (outside euro)
JF-17: 0 (outside china/pak)
J-10: 0 (not on the market either)Its a tough market out there 🙂
not sure why you dont count European exports?
in any case
Rafale: 2 (Egypt, Indiana) 24 and 36 = 60 (could be higher on the Indian side)
Typhoid: 2 (Hitlerland, Wahhabiland, Oman) 15 and 72 and 12 = 99 this includes Oman’s planned purchase
Peter Griffin: 7 (Cheque, Hungry, South Africa, Thai, Brazil, Slovakia) 20, 14, 26, 12, 36, 12 = 120. this excludes follow up orders from Thailand and Brazil which are to be higher and planned purchase of Slovakia.
Y-20 BaconMajor question would be – has the J-10 even been offered for export really?
The closest it seems to have gotten to a sale was the sale of 36 J-10As to Pakistan, but Pakistan probably couldn’t afford the J-10 and hence stuck to buying more JF-17s..there was some talk that they were holding out for the more capable J-10B, but now there seems to be no interest in the type from Pakistan..Argentina may be interested in the type, but frankly, considering their financial condition, the JF-17 may be a more likely option.
you brought up another issue.
those who are broke consider JF-17 or used aircraft
those who can afford it.. end up going Flankers (even the mig-29 struggles against flanker sales these days)
Y-20 Baconhttp://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/1020060.html
Some info from Korotchenko interviewing Irkut people:
-Bangladesh (ordered 16 Yak-130s) will be getting its first planes this year. It is expected to receive 14 planes this year in total, and the last two in 2016.
-Syrian contract is still frozen, until Assad’s victory. In other words, no time soon.
-Belarus has received 4 Yak-130s, and has an option for 2 more.
-Weird info regarding Su-30SM. RuNavy has ordered 12 planes to date, but RuAF has ordered 60 with another option for 50.
-44 Su-30MKA have been delivered to Algeria. Within the week another contract for 14 more Su-30MKAs is expected to be signed.
-Talks are underway with three Latin American countries considered potential Su-30SM customers.
strengthens ACIG’s claims that MKAs are also being procured to replace the su-24s. there was a wikileak not long ago that suggested MKAs with targetting pods are being used for insurgency ops, especially given the vast openness of Algeria and the long legs of the flankers.
Bangladesh orders yaks? not surprised.. the chinese media keeps saying they’re going to buy chinese every year, only for Bangladesh to order Russian instead.
Y-20 Baconwell according to that site
Stillion assesses how advances in sensor, weapons, and communication technologies have changed air combat and the implications of these trends for future combat aircraft designs and operational concepts. Stillion concludes that these advances may have fundamentally transformed the nature of air combat. This transformation may be steadily reducing the utility of some attributes traditionally associated with fighter aircraft (e.g., extreme speed and maneuverability) while increasing the value of attributes not usually associated with fighter aircraft (e.g., sensor and weapon payload as well as range). As a result, an effective sixth-generation “fighter” may look similar to a future “bomber” and may even be a modified version of a bomber airframe or the same aircraft with its payload optimized for the air-to-air mission, Stillion argues. If this is correct, then the United States may be in a position to save tens of billions of dollars in nonrecurring development costs by combining Air Force and Navy future fighter development programs with each service’s long range ISR/strike programs.
certainly explains why all the 6th gen concepts from the US are large aircraft with deltas.
even the Chinese J-20 looks like it prioritizes range and payload over manouverability
Y-20 BaconWill anyone get what this is a cross between? Very subtle this time.
fullback and flanker
Y-20 Baconhehe so you really can count those who produce more.
ISIS is fusion of Western EU and Middleast. It has nothing to do Kazakh or China. I don’t want give you further dose of reality.
Russia is continuously doing exercise near Europe. so potential threat from EU. infact EU near complete dependence on Middleast make it more of a failed state.you went offtopic first.
The most effective weopon against ISIS is Su-30SM equipped with brahmos/Kh-31. you can practically implement embargos on ships and air in Middleast.
so now you’re trying to divert it to the EU? nice try Jihadi
Y-20 Bacon/mode Troll on
If indonesia buy rafale or EFT, Australia will be in trouble
/mode troll off
what about su-35
Y-20 BaconWho else is going to give them reasonable weapon systems at very good prices. Forms a buffer also south of Russia. Starts a military build up for Iran. As long as Iran pays for it in hard currency which Russia would like to have. A mix of S-300s and Su-30Sms, Su-35s, Mig-35s or even S-400s would really make any attack on Iran costly. The only problem which Russia and USA can only do is unifying these systems into a coherent force. Not even Chinese equipment at this point can be coherently put together in a meaningful way to make any attacker suffer sufficent loses to end up on the bargaining table. Serbia being the only one, but from a position weakness.
that guy above is right. Iran considered Russia as the lesser devil and there’s still a Caspian sea dispute.
but that said, I think most countries who have the option of Chinese and Russian weapons, will prefer Russian.
Look at Pakistan, now that Russia is slowly opening up more products, they are “rushin” to buy “russian” .
there were many reports that the Pakistani army preferred the T-80UD from Western Russia over their Al-Kaeda tank.
something about sustained supersonic
and do you think this is necessary to do its job?
versus a supercruising pak-fa or su-35
Y-20 BaconHow do you know?
Do they have a large requirement for an attack variant of the Yak?
Kinda figured they would stick to their Flankers…maybe even Su-34 to replace the modernized Su-24.
I recalled Tom Cooper saying something along the lines that the reason Algeria has two different schemes for their Su-30MKA is because they are assigned to different tasks, with one intended to serve as a strike aircraft to eventually replace the su-24.
and since I’m writing to you here,
what is that MiG-31’s one role and why can’t the Su-35 do it.
Y-20 BaconThe way I interpret this purchase is India gets Rafale in service (which even Tejas hasn’t really attained) so that it gets momentum for further domestic production, not necessarily Rafales. But IAF needs modern jets ten years ago. And if PAKFA falls through then they can lean back on more Rafales, with the hope they are domestically produced. If Tejas simply gets moving at a good pace they really don’t need 100+ more Rafale with FGFA in the works. And if FGFA fails, then Rafale it is.
I wonder if AMCA,w ill in the end, be a 5th gen airframe with Rafale guts.
Y-20 BaconMainstream fighters chose the MiG-35 size (Rafale, Typhoon, Tornado, Super Hornet, F-35, etc.) due to costs. All heavier fighters (Flankers, Raptors, Fencers, Eagles, etc.) take more ground crew to service. Parts generally scale in cost by weight. Just try to compare Foxhound to Super Flanker. The Foxhound takes more time and money to keep up, even if technically it can outperform the Super Flanker in its specialized mission. The Super Flanker may not go Mach 3, but it has huge legs and an adequate weapon suite to replace Foxhound in many places.
What is really interesting is that MiG-21 was a puny fighter that had pretty exceptional performance in its time. It kept growing to the point that it’s no longer puny when you look at the later versions. China wisely chose to use the RD-33 because it’s practically the same size as the engine in later MiG-21 variants, but had some more room to grow. Early engines in the MiG-21 were struggling to push out 12,000 pounds of thrust. Later engines could do almost 17,000 pounds in comparison, although they grew substantially in size to get there. Imagine what could be done with a fifth generation engine, the size would be maybe 60%. You could easily overcome the MiG-21’s shortcomings in visibility with modern sensors without growing the design any bigger than the original. And your fineness ratio would actually be smaller, only doing it with the thrust of the modern engines. Supercruise has to be within reach. And instead of internal bays, simply push for streamlined ejector-equipped stations with a focus on LOAL.
that’s what I’ve said.. the su-35 can’t match everything the mig-31 does but is likely adequate enough to do the job of the mig-31. but that got fanboys foaming.
but but we need an interceptor that can fly supersonic for hours!
as for mig-35 vs su-35. russia is already operating the su-35, does it need yet another new type to spend money on keeping in service?
perhaps maybe to maintain a foothold in the export market against a possible J-10.. but somehow or other, foreign countries are preferring flankers over fulcrums since the end of the cold war, and the j-10 is an export failure thus far.
people seem happy to deal with a heavy-light combination than mediums.
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