JSR1. it doesn’t have to dogfight, it’s a mini B-2. ever seen a B-2 with a2a missiles?
ever thought where B-2 is used untill now.
except that it can do the B-2s job much better
– a UCAV would cost about $50 million, compared to $737 million for a B-2, so you can have almost 15 UCAVs for the price of one B-2
from where the price coming from?. you can barely built Gripen NG (with mass produced F414 engine) for that price let alone internal carriage UCAV. EU willl be facing high energy and labor rates with slow production. every thing will be much more expensive.
– that’s 15 x 2000 kg = 30.000 kg, compared to 18.000 kg on the B-2
B-2 is 40 year old airframe technology. nothing spectacular about its payload and performance.
– a B-2s price and human crew makes it more risky to deploy, especially in first days of war. one lucky SAM, AAA or Mig pilot and that’s a HUGE loss. compared to 15 UCAVs that can spread out, vary their approach paths and timing, attack multiple targets at the same time…
that i agree but where B-2 cant operate this UCAV will not operate either as SAM technology is progressing much faster.
– UCAVs would also be more survivable/expendable. an egine failure isn’t as bad as say on an F-35, not to mention the lack of a pilot to be captured/rescued. its small size, high G tollerance and lack of fear also make it an excellent candidate to fly into the heaviest defensive fire without even flinching
UCAV are highly unreliable. they have very high crash rates.
– UCAVs will also demand way less maintenance time than a B-2, meaning more attack runs in a short time
– the one advantage of a B-2 is its range. however because it’s so valuable it also usually flies much longer distances to its target, making that advantage irrelevant
i am not sure why your comparing with B-2 which is nealry obsolete for 21st century. also the range of cruise missile increaing along with introduction of hypersonic missiles. anything short range will be destroyed at its airbase. thats why planes like Tu-160M are needed. fly faster and from further airbases.
2. there’s no reason to assume a UCAV can’t dogfight. there are already plans to use for example the F-35 as a c&c unit, guiding forward flying UCAVs to their targets
while a manned fighter/AWACs/satellite/ground radar can use its radar and other sensors at full power, UCAVs can sneak in close, relaying LoS data back for target confirmation, and then attacking from different angles, catching the target off guard, and fleeing before the target can retaliate, possibly drawing counter-attackers into the fire fields of other UCAVs. they’re like snipers, shooting you unseen and unexpected, and if you try to give chase their friends are waiting for you to run into their crosshairs. sure a supersonic super-stealthy UCAV could do this job even better, but the USAF command will eat its own shoes before admitting its gold plated 5th generation fighters are tactically and economically outdated
not a single UCAV has managed to dog fight. when will be supercruising TVC engine going to installed in UCAV.
JSR1. Europe has not been invaded in over 50 years
it would be economic and military suicide for Russia, China is too far, and I’m not going to dignify Iran with an answer, Israel can probably take out most of their military within 24 hours
Europe is not worth invading when you think about it. It lack natural resources for occupation. and its not important enough that it will have any impact beyond one year on Russia economic in case of invasion.
2. Europe has, after the US, the most powerful and advanced air defence on the planet, including many US units
including soon the (flying fiasco to be) F-35
most advance air defence on planet. what is it consist of?
3. who says you need a 5th generation EU aircraft?
stealth is of little use on the defensive, as you’re more likely to use your radar to find any invaders
on the offensive it’s useful, but the USN has shown that a good ECM program works just as well
and there are radars that detect stealth, these will become only more capable over time
Stealth and EU is now case of sour grapes.
electronic hardware and software do make a difference, but the F-18E has proven that you can install advanced electronics onto an old platform
by 2020 any old platform will be upgraded with off the shelf F-35 level capabilities, at a fraction of the price but with less bugs and more recent (and thus far more capable) processors
Old platform still need engine power. current Eurocanards will be retired with current engines. there is no chance of substantial engine upgrade.
4. the main use for stealth is on the offensive, and there most of Europe is working on UCAVs
if anything the EU might in the early 2020’s have the world’s most effective offensive air force, as they can bomb targets at long range, with long loiter, cheap and expendable UCAVs, while the USAF can’t be seen risking its extremely expensive and likely buggy F-35s for fear of losing pilots to Russian and Chinese stealth fighters or optical SAM systems that laugh at their stealth
This UCAV is subsonic joke with limited payload and engine power. infact high speed and high altitude figther will give the longest range to missiles.
5. personally I think 5th generation fighters have been nothing but a money drain so far, making little or no tactical or strategic difference in today’s air power world
Europe has been smart not to waste money on it (we do that enough already), going for more potential and cost-effective UAV tech instead
Europe is not smart at all by not investing in offensive capabilities.
JSRWhere were Iraq’s Mi-35s, Mi-28s & Su-25s?
those are in limited number relative to scale of problem and you cant expect them to proficient in there use in less than a year.
they need giantt AWACS for survellence round the clock that can see even inside Turkish and Syrian borders.
Pluse Iraqi army is full of turn coats. It need to be completely dismantled and new army created from ground up with Russian weopons, planning and training with maximum secrecy for surprize.
http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/270520153?keyword=russia
According to spokesman Nassir Nour the deal was struck during Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi visit to Moscow earlier last week. He said the timetable for arrival was withheld for security reasons
JSRThe Generals running Egypt are not stupid. They are going to squeeze money out of these royal families and create independent weopons supply chain that can be used against them.
France/Qatar created problem for them in libya.
JSRAt least as long as the outdated ITAR regulations exist.
i highly doubt it can continue beyond one or two years more as lower prices of Oil make expensive Euro weopons unaffordable especially for high sortie rate.
MIG-29 is cheaper to operate than F-16 so it can get more export orders surely against more expensive Euro canards.
http://theaviationist.com/2015/01/27/polish-f-16-combat-ready/
The second argument provided by General Gocuł dealt with the operative costs associated with the F-16: the MiG-29 is cheaper to operate than the Fighting Falcons hence, deploying the Fulcrums is a way for not burdening the taxpayers. Apparently, cost of one flight hour of the MiG-29, according to various sources (exact data is unknown), is shaped at around 5,500 USD. In case of the F-16 the amount is as much as 7,700 USD
JSRThreat in 1980s was much lower than now due to short legs of fighters and missiles with less strike payload per sortie. It was much harder in 1980s to cut oil and gas supplies to EU.
Antiship and Anti radiaiton missiles have hundreds of kms ranges. this make even EU naval ships operations less effective.
how long will Middleastern countries buy outdated slow production rates over price EU weopons.
JSRJamming system come to low altitude.
http://www.kret.com/en/news/3677/
The helicopter’s jamming system can “blind” enemy aircraft within a few hundred kilometers
JSRI’m ignoring that fact just like i’m ignoring the fact that F117 meets all definitions of a fifth generation aircraft minus the aesa.
Also I’m not being really serious in ether of my posts.
F117 didnot have TVC, Supercruise and most important thing 5G self protection suite against missiles.
JSRI said Ukraine has a decent SAM network. I didn’t say it alone could hold off a massive air strike. But Ukraine can make the russian air force hurt.
http://cpreview.org/2014/03/air-combat-over-eastern-ukraine/
you can see how faulty is the analysis in your link just by looking at this statement.
Ukraine operates many of the same air defense systems that Russia does
The Ukranian S-300 has only 75 to 90km range.
http://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/tehnika-pvo/77-zenitniy-raketniy-kompleks-s-300ps
AS far as the west supporting Ukraine incase of escalation with advance weapons… nobody really knows. Not you or me. You’re not getting the point of the thread since it has gone in a whole new debate. My point was if the US is going to give Ukraine the A-10 (because the whole point of the thread was what nation would be interested in the A-10 incase it’s available) then US policy has drastically change when it comes to the US, and probably the west, on giving Ukraine advance weapons. The point I’m trying to make is, if the US is giving Ukraine A-10s, it is very likely giving Ukraine other weapons it needs or wants.
I said only advanced weopons is EA-18G/F-18E. and that assuming in quantity and several years of training with all the expensive standoff weopons. the rest like drones, MLRS are not going to work at all. so there is nothing much else to give.
JSRSincerely I don’t see any sense here.
My own country got similar inflation rate for decades and our armed forces, although crimped by low allocations were still able to operate modern warship and fighters at the same level (or even better, no Witwenmacher there) than others main NATO countries.
At the contrary a high inflation rate would be a blessing to attract professionals into the Ukranian army: just need to pay them directly in Euro or Dollars.
It will be like to gave them a + 60% raise every next year.
first you have define what is modern. as your weopons may be 1970s era without updates and you are calling them modern.
the word operate has different meaning. just driving around a vessel or tank does not mean real exercise with all the quantity and planning with logistics in place thousands km away for large formations like Vostok 2014.
JSRUkraine has a decent SAM network. But if there was air strikes and cruise missile attacks in Ukraine, once again it means a whole new level of escalation which means Ukraine would be seeing western help in dealing with russian fighters and cruise missiles. It’s one thing for russia to fight so close to its border where the population is russian, it’s another to fight hundreds of miles away form the motherland in which russia hasn’t proven it can.
your assuming too much without any substance to backup. mere hearsay.
Ukraine SAM network is in no position to deal with continously updated Iskaner/Yakhont/Tornado systems. poorly paid, trained conscrpts with complete lack of maintaince, fuel and energy depedence make it completely ineffective. I am not even going to very heavy jamming they will face to operate those SAMs.
and No one is going to come to rescue ukraine if Russia chose to escalate. the only reason they not esclating is they are giving time to EU to invest money in dead economics of Ukraine as Russia has $25b bank exposure to Ukraine.
Only country confident in economics can overspend on defence as modern defence equipment needs highly paid skilled labor, contract soldiers and expensive training. it is called allocation of resources to a narrow sector.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2015/05/18-russian-economy-aleksashenko
In addition, the foreign debt repayment schedule softened significantly in the first quarter—the amount due decreased by 40 percent compared to the previous quarter, to $36.5 billion. CBR data show that repayments in 2015 and 2016 will be even less, thus diminishing the future direct impact of Western financial sanctions.[3]
look at this train bridge. This will make things cheaper.
http://siberiantimes.com/business/others/news/n0224-china-forges-ahead-with-building-bridge-to-join-russian-far-east/
JSRAll in all a very productive couple of months for the Modi government- even if at first glance it doesn’t appear that way.
these are the least productive couple of months. Modi gov has introduced A-330 based AWACS saga which infact Airbus has no experiance of putting 10m AESA antenna. A-50I Antenna is 10.5m.
I dont know why Modi have to give inducement for things that have no hope to finish on time and on budget.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/areva-finds-flaws-in-new-nuclear-reactor-1428408394
Areva Finds Flaws in New Nuclear Reactor
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/03/04/areva-turmoil-losses/24359947/
PARIS (AP) — France’s nuclear industry is in turmoil after the country’s main reactor manufacturer, Areva, reported a loss for 2014 of 4.8 billion euros ($5.3 billion) — more than its entire market value
French nuclear project has suffered big delays and cost overruns
JSRNon jihadi iraqi’s have never made good soldiers. They don’t fight, period. GW-1 and GW-2 where pretty good examples of iraqi soldiers lack of fighting capabilities.
Irak was never ruled by competent people but more self serving dictators. now with modern military equipment and training that they are buying from Russia. there military will be transformed.
Ukraine with little to no help and with a third world military has done an okay job against russian soldiers.
Ukraine military hasnt even dealt with modern airstrikes or cruise missile attacks that can paralayze country.
Giving A-10s to Ukraine means a change in US/NATO policy towards Ukraine, meaning that Ukraine is going to get more than A-10s.
Alot more than is EA-18G/F-18E AESA/EW figher with stable production.
It means giving Ukraine real time SAT intel. It means armed drones and long range Artillery like the MLRS to take out russian SAM’s and Arti rockets just over the russian border. Russia already fires into Ukraine form there side of the border.
SAT intel is overrated againts moblie targets. armed drones dont have self protection suite or speed like fighter. very ineffective weopon system as they are slow and noisy. its only good for survellence with small drone that can swamp that battlefield. not huge one of drones.
what kind of MLRS you have in mind and what level of training you think it will need considering opposing side can quickly deploy A-50U/Su-34 huge radars for real time ground survellence.
Those MLRS concentration can quickly be destroyed with either Iskander or Brahmos class land attack missiles. this things out ranges MLRS.
JSRWe already have “advisers” there what do you think it’s going to look like if we start giving them A-10s and other advance weapons including EW capabilities.
Those advisors and training was already failure in Iraq despite having spent 10 years there.. Russia weopons delivery and training can be much faster. so much faster change in battlefield.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/analysis/2015/05/23/Does-Russia-provide-a-faster-arms-option-to-Iraq-than-the-U-S-.html
Like Attiyah, Baghdad-based retired military officer Ameer al-Saadi, also described Russia as offering more of a flexible type of payment and it can send the much needed arms “within hours.”
As Iraq waits for its U.S. arms, Saadi criticized the AT-4 shoulder-held rockets, mulling Russia as more of a better option. He said AT-4 can infiltrate 20 centimeters thick shields and spans 300-500 meters in range as oppose to the Russian Kornet which can infiltrate 30 centimeters thick shields and reach up to 2200-2500 meters.
The only effective EW i can think of EA-18G/F-18E combo that is ready to export but it took 5 to 7 years for $45k per capita country like Australia. it wont work in country having per capita closer to somali land. basically mean skilled labor has fled.
This is why i said giving Ukraine A-10s was a non starter because it would mean the US would be giving them more than just A-10s.
giving much more than A-10 means alot of money and time which is simply isnt there except few loans that is used to repay previous loans.
infact Germany basically declared Ukraine as non european country and country is in default.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanys-merkel-dashes-ukraines-eu-membership-hopes-1432199190
JSRBut now we’re talking about an escalation/intervention in giving Ukraine advance weapons. Why not MLRS that will hit russian SAM positions? Russians already fire on Ukraine from russian side of border. Why not supply them with Jammers and other EW capabilities. See where this is going?
Advance arms need highly paid and skilled soldiers, maintainance personal with lots of training. i highly doubt it can work in country with 60% inflation.
http://dailysignal.com/2015/05/04/in-ukraine-the-triumph-and-tragedy-of-battlefield-medicine/
Health Care Shortfall
Effective medical care has been among the Ukrainian army’s most pressing shortfalls since the conflict with pro-Russian separatists began last spring.
The added challenge for Ukraine, however, is that the separatist surface-to-air missile threat has grounded Ukraine’s medevac helicopters. The wounded have to be evacuated by ground transportation, which often includes civilians who volunteer to use their personal cars as ambulances.
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