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JSR

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  • in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2284753
    JSR
    Participant

    I ‘ve done a bit of homework .

    It seems that the RCS of Su-27/30 is around 15m2 , which is similar than the posted scheme .
    I found a link who says that the RCS of the Su-35 is 3+m2 (?) , when the scheme shows an average 8m2 .
    Personaly , I cut the pear in two and I go with 5m2 , until we find a more accurate number .
    This is 25 to 50 times the RCS of the Rafale (0.1-0.2m2) .

    Then we add 6 missiles for both fighters (+ a central supersonic fueltank for the Rafale) and we end with a 1.2m2 for the Rafale and 6m2 for the Su-35 .
    That would mean that the Su-35 would detect the Rafale at 300km and track it at 200km . The Rafale would detect the Su-35 at the max range of RBE2-AA : 200km+ and the tracking would begins at 180km .
    Slight advantage to the Su-35 .

    .

    So 6 Meteor class missiles and One fuel tank (that one tank barely has 1200kg fuel with added drag) add only 1sqm to Rafale RCS but it add 3sqm to add 6 missiles to Su-35. do you ignore the huge wing tip pods like EA-18G on Su-35 wing tip. what is purpose of that?

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2284754
    JSR
    Participant

    Really or a claim from the stomach?! The Su-35S outperforms the Su-27 by its multirole capability and that was never questioned.

    do you see those qualities any other Flanker variants on uac webpage?

    http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/models/military/su-35/
    The Su-35 combines characteristics necessary for a modern fighter, such as: super maneuverability, sophisticated active and passive sensor systems, high supersonic flight speed, long range of flight, possibility to arrange aircraft interaction; as well as characteristics of a good combat aircraft, namely: a wide range of armaments, modern multichannel electronic warfare system, enhanced stealth technologies, aircraft combat survivability.

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285067
    JSR
    Participant

    Gripen C is said to have frontal RCS approx. 10% of F-16, which would put the Gripen C around 0.1m2 — given all the work Dassault has put into reducing RCS of Rafale it seems reasonable to assume that it’s around 0.1 m2as well, and this seems to be supported by the claim that Rafale has around 10% RCS of the Mirage.

    However RCS will most likely go up with external munitions — how much is impossible to say. I recall Saab stating that the most effective way to reduce RCS of Gripen NG was to replace the AMRAAM with Meteor (or was it replacing Sidewinder with IRIS-T? I always forget). With low-RCS pylons and a low-RCS missile, the total RCS may still be pretty low.

    Still, a strong radar can detect at a distance — however I suspect that to detect Rafale at large distances the Su-35 cannot operate its radar in LPI mode but may need to increase the power significantly. Thus it becomes easy to detect the emissions for the Rafale. By sensor fusion and triangulation a group of Rafales will then be able to arrive at a firing solution, and probably before the Su-35.

    Now Gripen C become 0.1 sqm? this thing carries only 2300kg internal fuel in 7000kg airframe. Alot of drag from even small stores.

    http://www.gripenblogs.com/AnalyticsReports/gripen%20calendar.jpg

    in reply to: What will India replace Rafale with #2285335
    JSR
    Participant

    Debunked

    “Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. The CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a ‘back up’ as reported.”

    http://livefist.blogspot.fr/2013/04/negotiations-for-rafale-on-track-no.html

    There is little credibility behind this report. IAF has been saying deal will be signed next month. and it didnot happen. IAF has to buy what HAL or others can produce. so any complex aircraft like Rafale/EF/F-18E has to wait very long time to manufacture.

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285346
    JSR
    Participant

    You do not grasp simply that RCS has nothing to do with size at first. Otherwise none got the idea to develop stealth ships or bombers f.e. Every item including external loads can be developed with RCS in mind. The former trend to disperse radar-energy by reflecting via shape is enhanced by reducing that via absorbing it from materials and internal shaping to disperse energy absorbed. All items carried by a fighter can be stealth treated in a similar and it is done to keep the max peak for the main sector of intrest as low as possible.
    You even do claim that for the Su-35, which is treated in a similar way against a main sector of intrest and the critical wave-length in the X-band.
    A reduced X-band reduces the possible range of targeting something.
    Stealth features have the purpose to delay the firing circle at first to allow you to get the first shot or to pass a critical area.

    did i say rcs has to do with size of aircraft. external loads can be developed with rcs in mind? not easy.
    Dassault claim of 1sqm rcs of this aircraft. not sure from what angle.

    http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Dassault-Mirage-2000N.jpg

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285349
    JSR
    Participant

    To stay serious the Russians will be lucky when the heavier Su-35 will have the flight performances of the still excellent Su-27. Some super-cruise capability comes not from the higher thrust, but the new engine were designed to be run hotter in military for a brief time. FBW allows “care-free” handling and faster responses but not better flight performances in general.

    heavier. no better flight performance? where you get this information. It has supreme flight performance super agility mode. It is designed around heavy wing tip pods. rcs reduction with coating around whole airframe. low altitude terrain following.

    http://www.knaapo.ru/media/rus/about/production/military/su-35/su-35_buklet_rus.pdf
    complex electronic counter Jammer individual mutual protection
    Jamming group protection guidance equipment anti-radar missiles
    Warning system radar and laser irradiation Early warning system for missile attack Automatic ejection of decoys
    Additional protection against ground-based air defense systems, providing
    possibility of a low-altitude flight terrain following

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285609
    JSR
    Participant

    The main reduction today comes no longer from external shaping and RAM. At least as important is the internal-shaping and material [working like a “Black Hole”], where the F-35 is at best and designed the whole fuselage in mind from the start.[main setback later changes are not allowed] For the Typhoon it is known, that the whole front-section was rebuilt that in mind. Maybe similiar is done for the Rafale too, but very difficult for the Su-35, when it is not a major redesign over the Su-27.

    what matter is how rcs develops after you load aircraft with weopons/pods. Rafale things stick out. so rcs is not much reduced.

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/
    The improved radar stealth reduces the reflectance of the Su-35 in the X radio waveband and in the angle range of ±60°.

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285623
    JSR
    Participant

    That will be operated at low level with the support of its EW-suit. Here none has to care about RCS and agility.

    they dont care about ground based radars?

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285649
    JSR
    Participant

    Indeed it is based on Su-27s flight performance. It has same aerodynamics layout, same wing area. It has (at best) the same, and quite possibly greater empty weight. Anyone mature enough will easily conclude it will have similar possibly a little lower ceiling.

    I present you FACT about HOW Su-27s conduct intercept missions, but you chose to pull numbers and estimates out of your ***. While I also defend Su-35 is on par with, or slightly better than Rafale in terms BVR combat, your bias about Su-35 is beyond logic for me to discuss.

    Su-27 has nothing to do with Su-35 even if they look same from outside. you dont create new FBW and new materials for same flight performance.

    Anything from Typhoon to Rafale, from F-16 to F-22 is also designed to operate in enemy territory. According to your -rather illogical- logic, RuAF inventory has no dedicated jamming aircraft of equivalent generation. So all these sorbstiya, gardenia, SAP-14, SAP-518 jammers are useless weight as they would be useless to almost any aircraft in the world?

    You make stupid claim of Spectra jamming Irbis. when there is no evidence for it. US fighters dont act alone on enemy terrirtory. what was that EF-111 EA-18G, EA-6 etc.

    As far as RCS concerned, I dont bother commenting on images and wikipedia claims. Without solid data, there is no way of estimating RCS and everything you people do is pulling numbers out of your backs. That goes for Bluewing’s claims about Rafale, and yours about Su-35.

    I didnot made any claim regarding RCS of Su-35. but you need to wise up this M2K is Indian service since early 80s. if it has 1sqm of RCS India wont be bother by any other fighter.

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285878
    JSR
    Participant

    First, NO aircraft other than MiG-31 will even approach to 60k feet. I will not go into physical reasons of this rather laughable claim, but suffice it to say Su-27 manual does not even give any performance data above 12000m. This graph should help you when estimating “what would Su-35 do” in various scenarios.
    [ATTACH]213300[/ATTACH]
    Translates as:
    Fig.19 Flight profiles during interception of aerial targets
    Включение форсажа = enable afterburner
    1-2 interception of nearby targets in stratoshpere (climb to 11000m, dry thrust only)
    3-4 interception of far away targets in stratoshpere (climb to 11000m, use afterburner, switch to dry thrust during engagement)
    5-6 interception of far away targets in average or low altitude (approach at 11000m, use afterburner before and during engagement)
    7- interception with limited detection range.

    Second, 2 vs 1 scenario includes dozens of variables, and during engagment 2 fighters won’t be flying in formation. Even a good old ALQ-119 pod can jam Irbis or any other radar, provided its far enough from the radar to overpower it. Spectra jammer at 300km range should not have slightest of difficulty in jamming the Irbis. (by the way, lower semi-sphere detection of targets is always more difficult, and would make the jammers job even easier)

    Key factor here is Su-35 will be aware of presence of one Rafale, but not the Second, because only the first one will be jamming.

    so Su-35 now become Su-27 based on flight performance. which is simply not the case.The level of supercomputing and manufacturing effort behind Su-35 is decades beyond Su-27.

    operating over enemy place automatically assumes that there will be intentional effort to degrade it. and there wont be need for EA-18G class for communication attack if standard aircraft could do the job.

    http://www.niip.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:-q-q-35&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

    Radar control system “Irbis-E” is used at all stages of combat use when interacting with an airborne aircraft equipment, as well as on-board equipment of aircraft in the near and long-air combat, the management of individual and group activities during the day and night in simple and adverse weather conditions, as over its territory and over enemy territory, in the presence of natural and intentional interference.

    do these care about reduced RCS. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/images/F16i_soufa_6.jpg

    in reply to: EF-2000 vs su-35S #2285917
    JSR
    Participant

    Airframe weight is increasing not just aesa weight but also strengthening of the airframe for cft’s.

    Future EJ200’s have been quoted with thrust figures up to 26,000lb’s. No idea what sort of lifespan degradation however. Go check things before you claim your usual bull.

    Does the F-22 have a huge nose, does the T-50?

    Is that 26000lbs engine in flight tests?. F-22/T-50 does not need huge nose as they are designed for reduced rcs in front. but they do have much bigger noses than EF/Rafale class fighters.

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285921
    JSR
    Participant

    -1st Rafale jams at 300km+ 2nd Rafale goes in radar silent, getting target telemetry from the 1st via datalink. Irbis is blinded, and reduces the gain to see the jammer source. Su-35 moves to engage 1st Rafale and only be aware of second rafale after ARH seeker on its MICA/Meteor triggers its RWR. By then, 2nd rafale would be closing in at 30k+ feet and M1.5 and it would be very difficult for Su-35 to disengage let alone fight back.

    A simplistic 2vs1 scenario. Though it would be just as easy for 2x Su-27S to teamwork and defeat a lone Rafale.

    As i said you didnot understood. Su-35 will be at 60k feet. it will be looking in look down mode. it will lock on both Rafale and fire RVV-BD. once RVV-BD are fired. It will even accelerated further towards the target at speed greater than Mach 2. Rafale is not stealth plane that it can hide. and certainly does not have Growler like capability to jam Su-35. Even the video you see Su-35 does not turn back after firing the long range missiles.

    these gaint pods are integral part of Su-35 see the right pix. Its aerodynamic performance is designed for that.
    http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/products/su-35/index.wbp

    in reply to: EF-2000 vs su-35S #2285925
    JSR
    Participant

    100kg weight increase predicted for new radar.

    http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2013/03/08/typhoon-the-best-is-yet-to-come/7851/

    Typhoon has excess power in its earlier guises however possibly tranche 3 versions combined with cft’s may justify expanding the EJ200’s performance envelope but I doubt it with initial partner nations, already has insane combat T/W ratios.

    It only says radar weight will increase by 100kg. it doesnot say airframe weight increase in reaction to weight increase of heavier radar. it could enter service in 2017.
    I dont think EF engine power is more than F-18E or RD-33MKM. and neither is nose size. so radar performance would not be that much more. at most 250km range against fighter size target.

    The nose of the fighter, for example, has been beefed up to take the 100kg extra weight of the E-Scan AESA radar, which could enter service in 2017. Additionally, the high-speed data transfer capacity has also been increased on the Tranche 3A to take advantage of these new sensors.

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2285955
    JSR
    Participant

    Nonsense claim to stay polite. Real AAMs are very expensive and suffer from each flight in life-time left. In peace-time fighters are equipped with training rounds or the minimum of life-rounds for AD duties.
    In real combat the MiG-29 shows the optimum outfit in AAMs of 6 AAMs for some practical use by no more than two firing opportunities in a real mission most of the time. A pair is the smallest tactical unit and the number of that rise with the estimated threat level. To enhance the destruction propability of arial target in real combat and EW conditions two AAMs were fired against the same target. Even when limited to one shot against a tartget within the combat time just 2 of 4 can be fired really. Just with some loiter capability left and new adversaries will show up in the same area and time the number of firing opportunities may double and all 4-6 will be used up. Just fighters with two AAMs only will return from a combat mission without AAMs. left. A pair/section is the smallest tactical unit and the number of that rise with the estimated threat level. Two Rafale will kill a Su-35 most of time whatever number of AAMs is fitted to that. Just in an one versus one and both have lost their mate in a BVR engagement the one in the better position will win.

    Su-35 is not MiG-29. MIG-29 combat planning have no bearing on Su-35.
    Su-35 in combat will come with wing tip pods, 4AAM with in engines. and highest posssible altitude/speed. powerfull sensors allow Su-35 pilot to plan his mission well thought out ahead of time. 2 Rafale cannot kill Su-35 as there is no missiles in Rafale that can be launched at safe distance. combined that with weak aerodynamic performance the NEZ for missiles launched from Rafale is reduced even further.

    in reply to: EF-2000 vs su-35S #2285994
    JSR
    Participant

    1 – Irbis is a PESA, not an AESA
    2 – There´s this thing called the MBDA Meteor…
    3 – True, albeit the fuel fraction is almost identical, being much bigger the Sukhoi aircraft does indeed have more range and endurance
    4 – On the Typhoon… I can produce an independent air force evaluation (the 2009 Swiss) that states that the twin hole (the heavier and draggier version) Phoon flies at mach 1.4 without post combustion, you cant provide one single official source stating that any variant of the Flanker series can do the same. Actually i dont remember one official source stating that the SU-35 can actually supercruise
    5 – Pretty much irrelevant
    6 – True on acquision costs, now how much cost to operate a 17 ton beast with 29 tons of thrust for thirty years?

    how is fuel fraction identical?. Sukhoi fuel fraction is close to 68%. and you dont even know the weight increase that will come with electronic scanning radar on EF.
    Sukhoi designed for external pods on wingtip. and 4AAM between the engines. very effective combination without any impact on aircraft performance.

    http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/models/military/su-35/
    The Su-35 combines characteristics necessary for a modern fighter, such as: super maneuverability, sophisticated active and passive sensor systems, high supersonic flight speed

Viewing 15 posts - 3,181 through 3,195 (of 4,319 total)