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JSR

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  • in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2326374
    JSR
    Participant

    Google “Non Sequitur”.

    1 – There´s one single public comment about a suposed “Captor E” heli demonstration, and that was made by a Mig employee, it was never confirmed by any one in Selex, Eurofighter, EADS or the Indian Air Force, i am more than willing to bet that the chap confounded the sea spray work done by Selex with an AESA prototype for the “Phoon”.

    2 – Even if it was test flown in an Helicopter what was there to make the underpopulated 680 TRM AESA Zhuk to be “still be more powerfull than heli born radar”?!
    There are a bucket load of operational radars flying in helicopters, who are vastly more performants than the Zhuk prototype.
    Being “Heli” tested is by no means any indication on capability.

    http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_KA-31_AEW_GFD1-2_lg.jpg

    http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_H-3_Sea_King_UK_AEW-Mk7_Frontal_lg.jpg

    http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/eh101aew-italy.jpg

    3 – “and certainly pass the minimum range requirements as it was the only radar that full exploited weopons during tests”
    What the hell does radar range requirements have to do with weapons release during tests?!
    And i would imagine that you had access to Indian Air Force tests reports, did you?
    I would imagine that in six contenders only the Mig proposal managed to “fully exploit weapons during tests”, because everyone else is incompetent, dumb, or daft. Undoutebly that the Boeing chaps, with their combat proven, widely used and with a bucket load of integrated weapons, AN/APG-79, didnt “fully exploit weapons during tests”!

    your putting irrelevant old pix. even the Zhuk-M equiped MIG-29M from late 1990s have 130km range. now with more power supply and Zhuk-M1 and soonM2 . it is well beyond those numbers in MIG-29K.

    that was in 2009. Show me Rafale AESA radar range in 2009?

    http://vijainder.sawfnews.com/news/60169.aspx
    The MMRCA tender calls for a minimum detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).

    “We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers,” said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company’s general director.

    The Zhuk-AE can detect aerial targets at ranges up to 148 km (head on) in both look-up or look down modes. Look-up tail-on detection range is 50km (40km look down). The radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2326376
    JSR
    Participant

    it’s your post that is complete BS, sorry

    you were told: rafale used half less runway than the SH

    you said: that means nothing, you don’t know the loads (first BS, as IAF would, obviously put similar loads on every competitor)

    They cannot put similar loads. Rafale is only integrated with 110kg MICA. so it load distribution will be lighter. They dont even have same internal fuel capacities.
    MIG-35/F-18 has 175-190kg AAMs.

    then you said: the SH is heavier, thus needs more runway (second BS, as it’s the combination of the loaded weight, thrust and lift capability that will determine the take off performance, not the weight alone… otherwise, the F-86 would be a STOL aircraft, in comparison

    the you post link to the airfields… no relation whatsoever with the discussion…

    heavier aircraft generally takes more runways than lighter. F-18 empty weight and internal fuel capacities are 50% higher than Rafale but thrust is 40%. so the other factors dont matter. The closest competitor to Rafale is J-10 with similar TWR (engine in J-10 is less powerfull but should have comparable TWR).
    half runway length?. now that is unbelieveable BS. it can only happen if Rafale is take much smaller amount of fuel.

    http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharacteristics/acfa18ef.htm

    For F-18E Take off distance with minimum load is 1300 feet.(21.7 tons weight) with maximum load is 3600 feet.
    we take the middle weights. like 4 ton weopon load and 6.8 ton fuel. that will bring it to 25ton takeoff weight. and use middle of take off distance at 1800feet. that is 550m.
    now show me Rafale with 4.7 tons fuel and 4ton of external load to take off at less than 250m. F-18E still will have longer range as it is still carrying 2 tons of extra fuel.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2326648
    JSR
    Participant

    I am not able to make out your pont. Captor was tested on helo and not Mig AESA. MiG AESA was handicapped due to smaller array and not power restictions.

    IAF has wide experience with MiG jets. if they say it is inadequate for the role envisioned, i believe them.

    Even with reduced T/R counts it will still be more powerfull than heli born radar. and certainly pass the minimum range requirements as it was the only radar that full exploited weopons during tests.
    IAF does not have any experiance with AESA equiped MIGs and the firm behind it. Have they even looked the foundries behind T/R modules for AESA radars.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2326651
    JSR
    Participant

    JSR

    the whole point is: it does need a longer runway… and, rather than extending their runways, the IAF will preferably take the fighter with better T/O capability for a given load

    that’s exactly what Shiv1971 was saying

    it is academic. how much longer. 50m? 200m?. This half length is complete BS.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushok_Bakula_Rimpochee_Airport

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lhasa_Gonggar_Airport

    which airport is at higher alitude. Chinese use J-10 there and they have worst TWR with less advance engine than MIG-35 on standard load.

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/china-test-its-j-10-fighters-near-borders-with-india-188820
    According to a report and photos released by PLA Daily yesterday, the ground crew of J-10 regiment fuelled the fighters and loaded ammunition on the 3,500-meter-high plateau at temperatures below -20

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327151
    JSR
    Participant

    You can do a SWOT analysis on all the jets and come up with an Orca massive list of things that discredit a specific design. However, I recall that F/A-18s (not the Super Hornet but the Hornet) were beaten by early gen Swedish Gripens. And those early Hornets were in some ways quicker than the heavier Super Hornet. I wouldn’t write off the Gripen NG in any sense.

    i never said F-18 any version is faster than Gripen. Gripen is light weight and newer design built for interception role. but it does not mean it has decisive edge over F-18E in air to air combat let alone in Strike role. it is incrememntal improvement. Gripen is not fighter that can sustain over Mach 2 with weopon load at altitudes exceeding 70k.

    The NG has a lot more range than the earlier Gripens, and can supercruise – so it is a pretty fine jet but also a prototype under development.

    Gripen NG is 15% more range at best than Gripen. and it cannot supercuise without turning afterburner to overcome Mach1.

    And I am not comparing the two, just stating the facts. You were incredulous about engine stress test results. These things happen. Despite the very similar engine tech there were differences in the success of these engines in stress testing.

    As for the SH needing far more runway….this was under the loads specified by the IAF. There were specific payloads required for each jet in Leh and the tests were conducted under those loads.

    F-18 is heaver jet so it will need longer runway. what is so hard to test about it to know that F-18 requires longer runway. The role of strike fighter is to carry heavy fuel and loads.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327262
    JSR
    Participant

    well, if IAF compare the two aircraft, do you think they’ll put one with 25% fuel and no external load against a fully loaded oponent?

    get serious a little, if they compared the take off run, it was obviously with a standardised load for everybody

    There cannot be standard load. MICA is 50% lighter than AIM-120C7. A load of 8 AIM-120 is not the same as 8 MICA. There should be range differences.
    Similar is wide differences in radar and electronics power supply. There is no doubt F-18 has much powerfull radar and associated engine power.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327353
    JSR
    Participant

    The F414 on the Super Hornet failed a stress ignition test while it worked on the Saab NG, that was flown in to India for final testing.

    so ur comparing Gripen NG that hasnt been certified for any kind of loads with F-18E that can lift over 13tons total fuel load alone from carrier. see the link that i put it. how much load NG can lift on its wet stations.

    The Rafale needed about half the runway to take off in Leh compared to the Super Hornet. You wouldn’t really have imagined it given that the SH is supposed to be tuned for low alt work and has quite powerful engines.

    So lots of things are really learnt in field testing.

    half runaway is BS unless you know the loads, internal fuel capacity and the power of electronics.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327627
    JSR
    Participant

    will the T:W ratio of the super 30 really be improved considering the strengthening of the structure to accommodate the Brahmos?

    Su-30 TWR can slightly improved but it wont make a difference. Su-35 as it is designed from ground up to be lighter, less draggier and have more internal fuel capacity. as i have read it has over 6500km range with one in flight refuelling. This give great flexibility.

    Maximum Rafale fuel transfer is 4000kg at 100NM from base.

    http://www.japcc.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Reports/AAR_2011/Air_to_Air_Refuelling_Flight_Plan.pdf
    Rafale M uses buddy-buddy for AAR. The French Navy (FN) operates Rafale M fitted with an external AAR Pod.
    For training purposes, the minimum altitude is 5000 ft. The maximum offload is taken at 100 NM from the Carrier or base.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327628
    JSR
    Participant

    The radar range requirements, not the jet range. That’s something that occured because they had an early technology demonstrator rather than the scaled-up radar proposed. It was a sophisticated radar, by the way, just not sized right.

    A helicopter rig may be able to generate adequate power, and there can be additional power source hookups. I’m not sure how they addressed the power issue but long-range radars have been worked off naval helicopters. If they have a tri-engined Westland/Agusta chopper the power may be more than enough.

    As for the engines, they struggled in Leh, which is where engines have significant issues due to the air density. There were stress tests out there and under those loads any engine could fail.

    MIG-35 produces 23000shp. there is no way any EU built helicopter can match it. I am not saying they used radar at full power. but by now you should know that next batch 48 RSAF has price dispute and they are not getting AESA at this point. but RSAF ordered AESA for older F-15 upgrades. There is no way EF team can manage AESA deadline with full certification. so how it got passed to next stage which is the most critical requirement.
    Mican has more than 1100 employees and they are building new GAs modules on nano technology for Nokia-Simens. They are building anther factory that will increase production by 5 times. This scale of continous investment required otherwise you will endup in China/Taiwan.
    UMS GAs have 250 employee. so it is in doubt that foundry will survive for too long on this business model and it has IPs from Japan/Italy.
    I have doubts RD-33MK is going to lose Leh tests when M-88 can pass it.
    and are that tests was done with AESA equiped Rafale. that is more likely to be heavier than standard Rafale.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327972
    JSR
    Participant

    As for the others:

    – The canopy of the MiG-35 fell off…. The radar used fewer T/R modules as it was an early prototype and so failed the range requirements. It is a sophisticated radar and the missile fired from it hit the target but the radar was an early prototype (and as comparison with the Rafale, the RBE2AA was evolved over several versions with significant growth, including a 20 degree gain in azimuth). The engines were poor performers in Leh.

    MIG-35 failed range requirements? and claiming Eurofighter used helicopter for AESA. (helicopter is the least powerfull source for AESA radar range).
    Rafale radar doent have growth it will have the same small nose and underpowered engines. it is unbelievble that new RD-33MK engines will be poor performance.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2327975
    JSR
    Participant

    About 40 years ago you may have wanted to know why on earth would the US be anti-Iranian, when they were selling their most advanced weapons to the Shah’s regime….

    I have said this many times at Key Pub: Pakistan has advanced nuclear warheads and the Saudis may have a hankering for these. After the “Arab spring” unrests where the Arabs finally got it that a genuine democracy is the way to go, the monarchy (which is hardly popular in their state) may really want to consider some ultimate form of protection.

    Ironically, Libya’s strongman Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program out of fear that the G.W. Bush admin would attack him. In the end, he got attacked anyhow…and with no nukes to protect him.

    The Saudis have already politically backed up Pakistan on Kashmir politics – and you never know how things can fly from there. There may not be even a 1 percent chance of war, but the IAF would be cautious if they consider an adversary with a fleet of Typhoons.

    . Indian airlines was hijacked to Afghanistan. UAE was one of the government that recognized that talibuns and that plane went through dubai without any decisive effort by UAE
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/577769.stm
    there is no difference between Saudi/UAE/Qatar infact they are in the same alliance. and these countries have and will have enormous influence on France that is going to be bankrupt day by day. see France supply of satellite imagery for Saudi bombing of Yemen.
    India simply dont have that surplus money to built influence.

    in reply to: MMRCA – has Rafale been illegally subsidised? #2328563
    JSR
    Participant

    There were nothing in the Mig-35 package that India doesn’t already has with the su-30 mki, so the mig had nothing interesting to bring on the Indian technology wish list.

    RD-33MK engines are one generation beyond AL-31FP.

    http://www.ums-gaas.com/about-us.php. (Very small revenues for the foundry) and it has partners in Italy/Japan. so i doubt it owns all the IPs.
    MIG-35 AESA T/R modules are built by financially sound and multifunctional independent firm.
    http://www.micran.ru/english/

    India has PESA radar for Su-30MK and that is pretty old PESA.
    MIG-35 has alot more upgrade potential interms of materials, larger nose, TVC engines. Even the Canopy of MIG-35 is fully treated unlike Su-30MKI.
    http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/L8m7byvZNl8/hqdefault.jpg

    in reply to: Could new passenger plane be lifeline for BAE Brough? #2328671
    JSR
    Participant

    That’s a lot less than minimum wage in Brazil (currently €2 per HOUR), & you’d need to pay a lot more than the minimum to get riveters & the like. Employers pay heavy payroll taxes on top of that.

    I doubt you’d get riveters & wiring harness assemblers for anything like that in China, either. Look at what firms like Foxconn pay assembly workers in Shenzhen these days, & add on all the fringe benefits the firm provides (laundry, housing, uniforms, canteern, etc – all free or heavily subsidised), & you arrive at much higher figures.

    The problem is ur comparing wage rate of Chinese coastal cities. It is like building a plane inside central London or in big Brazillian cities.
    US south and Midwest is famous for industries because its wages/housing are not like NY/LA.
    Building/Assembling Aeroplanes is manpower intensive work relative to economic output per hr when you compared to auto/electronics industries.
    That is mistake of Chinese of building large airliner in Coastal cities. It will become unworkable with time.

    Any way I dont think BAE will be willing to risk technical manpower and money on single independent project. It cannot affford to create unique design and component product.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-20/bombardier-cseries-may-share-cockpit-with-china-s-c919-on-costs
    Bombardier Agrees to Share CSeries Cockpit With China’s C919

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/awst/2012/04/09/AW_04_09_2012_p37-444496.xml&headline=null&next=10
    Comac has, for a start, been rather busy spending money. Only halfway through the C919 development schedule, the budget has almost all been spent and will not be enough to see the aircraft into service, says Feng Peide

    in reply to: japan develops 5:gen after all! #2329515
    JSR
    Participant

    The most striking difference between the older F-106 & MiG-31 is that the older F-106A has a whopping 1000 km range

    Again provide real operation data with electronic phased array radar (which is the most crucial thing for interceptor otherwise who is going to pickup those stealth cruise missiles and UAVs), and long range missile load. and clarify the flight profiles. and whether ferry range is calculated with External fuel tanks or not. and the end provide data about engine life and upgrades.
    Also take into account that light weight cheap engines may have shorter life span and may not even be suitable for 4 to 5 hrs patrol

    advantage, while simultaneously costing ~30% to buy & operate, in effect you can afford 3 times as many interceptors,

    30% to buy and operate?. Try to put 1.1m phased array radar into nose F-106 and see how its weight increases due airframe strengthenginng. and See IL-76 D-30 upgrades. We can safely assume similar upgrades to MIG-31BM for thrust and life.

    and didn’t Good Ole Stalin state that quantity is a quality all by it’s own ?

    In this case the quantity is the radar power, missile load, missile ranges, altitude,speed, internal fuel, engine life and engine power need to make it workable.

    Amount of fuel is entirely irrelevant unless you also take into account how much it burn, and assuming same engine, the twin engine need twice as much fuel to keep up,
    but that didn’t take into account the higher drag inherent of the twin engine design, so you need in fact more than twice the amount of fuel to keep up.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Sears-Haack.png/220px-Sears-Haack.png
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Eclipse_program_QF-106_aircraft_in_flight%2C_view_from_tanker.jpg/170px-Eclipse_program_QF-106_aircraft_in_flight%2C_view_from_tanker.jpg

    Twin engine does not twice the amount. There is weight, airframe drag and weopon load factors involved. I havent seen a twin engine fighter having twice the empty weight.
    consider Su-35 and F-16E example. Two of the most powerfull twin and single engine fighters untill JSF/T-50 enter service.
    Su-35 is atmost 17 tons and F-16E is 10 tons. but Su-35 can carry 11.5 tons of internal fuel. so if you load up F-16E with 10 BVR missile and Su-35 with 10 BVR missiles. The effectiveness of F-16E physical performance will degrade much more not mention lack of internal fuel capacity and shorter radar ranges will make it less desirable to combat patrol vast area.
    Twin engine fighter is always better interceptor.
    There is no logic that twin engines fighters have lower operational top speed and climb rates.

    in reply to: japan develops 5:gen after all! #2330520
    JSR
    Participant

    I beg to differ.
    If you take a look at the simple low-drag layout of F-106,
    it suffer significantly less stress than MiG-31, especially the tail.

    you dont have any data with weopon load performance. Just standard load of MIG-31 is 2500kg and can still go Mach 2.4 with that load. and that include heavier phased array radar. for fighters like MIG-31 Mach 0.8 performance dont matter as it has 15ton fuel capacity so more flexibility in use of afterburner with ability to use most powrfull radar for first look. lighter avionics and enhanced engines will give MIG-31 much more performance boost. see D-30 upgrades for IL-76.

    Acceleration for twin engine is not a given once you go over M0.8, where drag will play increasingly critical role in the ability to accelerate, odds are the single engine design out-accelerate the twin engine fighter from here-on,
    as Gripen NG vs F-18E confirm is possible

    F-18E is heavier carrier borne fighter designed and certified 15 years ago. First create a carrier borne modification of Gripen NG with same loadout and airframe life and see its performance.
    . There is a lot of upgrade and flexibility with twin engine fighters. This was done with twin seater MIG-29.

    http://www.incredible-adventures.com/edge-of-space-intro.html
    We circled and then accelerated past the sound barrier to Mach 1.9. We then went upwards to about 70,000 feet.

    It is opposite in case of single engine fighter.
    You can read the single seat starfighter. Single engine fighters cant compete with twin fighters for combination of weopon load, speed, altitude, sensors, fuel capacity.

    http://www.starfighter.no/web/hi-alt.html
    In words this means that drag increases faster than thrust from the engine in this speed segment, and that it is necessary to trade altitude for speed to be able to accelerate further up to mach 2.0. We managed that by climbing in afterburner with mach 0.9 to 36.000 feet and then dive down again towards 20.000 feet to accellerate to mach 1.4. Then we had the power to accellerate to mach 2.0 and climb to 40.000 feet behind the target.

Viewing 15 posts - 3,826 through 3,840 (of 4,319 total)