GoldenDragonThe general planform is mostly done. But so I will begin on the hard part.
Details.
3D modeling of known subjects (as opposed to modeling spaceships or other speculative subjects) is approximation.
If you have plans/blueprints it is possible to model every nut and bolt if you are crazy enough. Hobby modelers generally will leave that kind of precision and accuracy to the engineers and their CADs 😀
Amount of detail depends on how realistic you want your model to look and how much time you have. Because the truth is, if you want to spend years on one model getting down to the finest detail you could.
Among the details I want for this particular 3D airframe, would be flaps, leading edge slats, canopy, rivet lines.
GoldenDragonWe are progressing nicely 😀
GoldenDragonGD;
I never said Vietnam is a likely nation to get the AIM-120 for example (or Cuba, China, NK, Pakistan, Iran etc…). My point was the AIM-120 is not impossible to come by. Many people here seem to think it is impossible for many people to get cleared for it. Yes I am more then aware there is a long list that would not become AIM-120 users due to politics.
It was (and still is) nearly impossible before unless you’re close allies of the US.
If not, it would have been handed out anyone with US planes like Saudi Arabia and Egypt years ago, like the AIM-9s.
And I did not mean to pick on you.
I didn’t think you were.
But now that I know you had entertained the thought of picking on me, I feel obligated to break your balls.
I’m of the opinion they will also push it heavily in SE Asia. South Korea is moving to becoming a big arms exporter to South East Asia and has already sold trainers to Indonesia (KT-1B) and the Philippines and Vietnam have also checked out the KT-1B. They also have made sales of ships to the Philippines (Sea Killer and Sea Dolphin) and will be selling Indonesia to submarines in the next few years. They have exported the KIFV to Malaysia. Now I will not go off on a limb and say they will make jet sales to these nations but Korea does seem to have South East Asia in mind for marketing.
Don’t forget the frigate they sold to Bangladesh. I expressed a long time ago on this board that S Korea would hit the world’s military market like they did shipbuilding and automobiles.
In aviation, if there is one country that can push into the low end niche that China has built for itself, it will be th S Koreans. Imagine Western based tech at Far Eastern prices (well not Japanese prices.)
This is one highly competent state backed with a formidable technical base.
SE Asia is an obvious place to start.
They would also do well to push it as an advanced trainer to Middle Eastern nations. I have no idea if any sales will be made but it will be interesting.
Of course, the Golden Eagle is first and foremost an advanced trainer. That’s where it’ll probably make most of its money and that’s the space where KAI will push it.
GoldenDragonhttp://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/08/1091613059.html
Embraer Hopes US Deal Will Boost Defense Sales
August 4, 2004Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer hopes that being part of the winning consortium to supply the US military’s next generation spy plane will throw open doors to new markets.
The US Army on Monday said a consortium led by Lockheed Martin, including Embraer, had beaten Northrop Grumman to an initial USD$879 million defense contract. Sources say the deal could be worth up to USD$8 billion over the next two decades.
“That is going to leverage other deals across the world,” Romualdo Monteiro, vice president for the defense market at Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica (Embraer) said.
“It’s a historic conquest. We have managed to get into the US defense market for the first time,” he said, adding that the company was negotiating contracts with the air forces of “dozens of countries”.
Maryland-based Lockheed is using Embraer’s 50-seat ERJ 145 regional jet as a platform for the new Aerial Common Sensor airplane, or ACS.
Analysts estimate Embraer could pocket between 20 percent and 30 percent of the value of the contract. It also represents a boost to the company’s defense credentials and creates a business relationship with Lockheed, the top US defense contractor.
The deal also sets Embraer on the road toward a target of raising defense sales as part of its overall revenues.
“Today about 10 or 11 percent of [Embraer] sales are from defense. The company has an objective to reach the equivalent of 20 percent of total sales in five years,” Monteiro said.
The executive said Embraer had supplied defense equipment to 15 countries. Embraer announced it was setting up a production facility in Jacksonville, Florida, in mid-2003 and sealed the partnership with Lockheed shortly after.
(Reuters)
“Sources say the deal could be worth up to USD$8 billion over the next two decades.”
That’s a nice cash cow to have in your back pocket. Something like this could finance a lot of other development too.
A far cry from MiG which needed to cancel airshow exhibitions to save eenough funds to begin building newly ordered MiG29Ks 😀
20 to 30 percent of $8billion would be $1.6 to $2.4 billion for Embraer.
GoldenDragonhttp://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/9312650.htm?1c
Embraer to build spy plane
JACKSONVILLE – (AP) — Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer will begin building the U.S. military’s newest spy plane here as part of a team led by defense contractor Lockheed Martin Corp.
The U.S. Army announced Monday that Lockheed Martin Corp. won the $879 million contract to develop the Aerial Common Sensor System, which will pack a variety of sensors into an airplane designed to monitor enemy communications, radar systems and troop movements.
The contract calls for Lockheed to develop and test the plane. Future contracts will cover the purchase of the operational model of the aircraft, estimated to be about $20 million each.
The military plans to spend $7 billion for the program over its lifetime.
The planes, based on the Embraer ERJ 145, will be built at Cecil Commerce Center, a closed Navy base, in a project that could bring 150 to 200 technical manufacturing jobs, paying upward of $40,000 to workers. Embraer had committed using Cecil contingent upon receiving a federal contract.
Design and development work on the plane is expected to begin next summer, said Wes Colburn, Lockheed’s director of surveillance and reconnaissance, with the system going into full production in 2007.
Local, state and federal agencies have contributed $10.8 million to build Embraer a facility and provide employee training.
Lockheed beat Northrop Gruman for the contract.
GoldenDragonWell the AIM-120 is widely exported and even it seems Jordan will soon get it. Even with the recent Israeli lobbying Jordan is still likely to get the AIM-120. So lets be honest the AIM-120 is the most widely exported ARH BVR missile (Denmark, Thailand, ROC, ROK, Singapore, Israel, Greece, Turkey to name a few) in the world out stripping the R-77E (Russia, Malaysia, India, China, Peru) and MICA-EM (France, Qatar, ROC, UAE and soon Greece). So its hardly impossible for a nation to get as long as they play ball.
The AMRAAM from what I last read was exported to about 20 countries, so if you list Denmark, then you might as well list the UK, Holland and just about most of Western Europe. That’s something that we already know.
But the US is not willing sign over the AMRAAM to countries outside its bloc. Obviously Russia or China isn’t going to get it.
Non-Western block nations such as Vietnam aren’t likely to get it. Even pro-western nations such as Saudi Arabia or Egypt are on a case-by-case, wait and see basis.
Not all countries are willing to play ball or looking to play ball with the US. So there is, and will always be, a niche market. The hard thing for the T/A-50 is that it will have to compete against other western products in markets dominated by the US.
But if it does attempt to open up a non-US market like Vietnam (which has reportedly expressed interest) for the light fighter role, the question of American release of the AMRAAM and other US weapons becomes critical.
And what would be considered “playing ball” for Vietnam so the AMRAAM could be released? Getting rid of its current government?
GoldenDragonI think that in the end, you should put a hot chick on the nose cone. 🙂
There will eventually be a hot chick on the nose cone.
GoldenDragonGreat!
It would be wonderful if you could also share with us the steps that you use to create these wonders…. like how you gave the smooth geometries of the shape – for example in Autocad, it is not easy to form smooth curvy surfaces for the skin (it is doable, but not easy).Again, only if it is not too much trouble for you.
Thanks GD.
Jedi Lord, I could give a recap of the techniques I’ve used up to this point.
I basically model in two ways, the one I use is often dependent on the component I’m building or whether I’m simply lazy or not 😀
The two methods are box modeling and spline modeling. Box is rather simple but very effective and fast in which you adjust a box mesh to the shape you desire. Spline modeling is using lines, connecting them in a three dimensional fashion, to create a shape and is closer to drafting but harder to use.
As for smoothing, 3D programs such as Maya or 3DS Max (which I use) have a series of tools for smoothing. The one I use which is part of the 3DS package is meshsmooth.
Also with spline modeling, you can surface an area with differing degree (density) of lines. All of this takes processing power 🙂
Now you probably know that smoothing is dependent on creating continuous lines in your model so that the polygon facets blends into each other for a smooth surface.
Because 3D rendering and modeling tools like Maya or 3DS Max are not as worried about precision as CAD programs, you can use tools like meshsmooth or tesselation to automatically add lines to yout model.
Adding lines to a mesh is called subdivision.
Of course, just adding extra lines for looks doesn’t work for people who want extreme precision in CADs.
Hope this explains certain things for you.
GoldenDragonRemember the $7 billion is for the entire project. The electronics in each plane will probably cost more than the airframe itself.
So Embraer will be getting much lerss than the $7 billion…
Whats the price of a ERJ….25 million?
25 x 58 is 1.450 billion…plus spares, training and support…lets say $2 billion.
Still not a bad piece of work.
Right, LM would get a major chunk. It would be interesting to see the breakdown in funds.
The price for the ERJ 145, at least from the articles related to the Harbin project, is listed at $20m. The smaller members of the stable, ERJ-135 and ERJ-140, sell for $15m and $18m respectively.
But I think the price per plane paid to Embraer would be higher than the list price to account for integration and modification work. But balancing that, in buying commercial aircraft (unlike military ones), large orders tend to gain the customer a discount.
Probably just wishful thinking that the Pentagon ever gets a discount on anything 😀
GoldenDragonThe T-50’s main sales will come from the trainer space not the light attack. The Gripen probably won’t be the main opponent but the Hawk or even the MiG AT or Yak 130 (though again because of US components, the Golden Eagle probably won’t be competing in nations using a lot of Russian equipment.)
GoldenDragonDon’t bother
Don’t bother, Freter and Yahoo, and let this thread go back to the FC-1.
The only reason India was brought into the thread was because for some reason its supporters repeatedly insist that FC-1 is not even “knee high” to the LCA based on their wishful thinking that India is “ahead” avionics.
An entirely silly position to take since the Chinese industry by all measure is far larger with more depth and breadth, has a bigger home market, a bigger export market (not hard to do since the Indian one is non-existent) and has a far longer and much more successful history.
When supporters of an entire industry that couldn’t even sell aircraft try to justify how the FC-1 is inferior based on assumptions already proven false by the world market, it’s simply ludicrous.
Freter is absolutely correct here. There is no debate here but just insults from the other side.
Point out that China exports aircraft and have exported aircraft for decades. And they say the buying nations are just “undesirables” and “bottom of the pond.”
Show them the Y12 and they counter with the ridiculous claim that India has an “indigenous” helicopter in the ALH while China only has copies.
Point out that the indigenous Z-6 first flew in the 1960s and they retort with that “indigenous” in the 1960s doesn’t count and “you’re a village idiot” for even suggesting that the Dhruv owes much to BK117 which obvious since the consultants had their hands in the earlier craft too.
There is nothing that suggests equality between the two industries, certainly not in the world’s marketplace. There are no sales and barely any products from one side while the other has sold hundreds upon hundreds of many different models.
BTW, I have yet to see an aircraft of any model from India in any publication that is listed from a firm other than HAL.
Maybe if they actually sold an aircraft, we would know what this other Indian a/c manufacturer is.
GoldenDragonThe Golden Eagle by virtue of its western engine and components is forced sell to countries operating American products.
So by default you’re competing with Western aircraft almost exclusively which makes it very hard. The FC-1, otoh, actually goes after markets that are embargoed by the US for various reasons.
There is one big attraction of the FC-1 which can cross lines of the US equipment users like Egypt and that’s the SD-10 ARH BVRAAM.
Unless the US starts passing out the AMRAAM, the FC-1 would be highly attractive because of this. Alan Warnes in the latest AFM said in an opening editorial that the FC-1 could revolutionize not only the PAF but other small air forces around the world.
The FC-1, even with its open architecture, is not big deal. But the price coupled with the ARH BVR missile with little political strings is.
Unless the T/A-50 have access to the AMRAAM or another BVR weapon, it would be at another disadvantage.
But then again, the role envisioned is probably nearer to the Alphajet or AMX as a light strike craft than an air superiority machine (as the A-50 designation suggests) so the BVR AAM might not be that important to the country considering to buy it.
That said, the Vietnamese has expressed interest. If the US okays it, it would be a major development. But I would highly doubt the AMRAAM or American PGMs would go to Vietnam for the A-50 version.
Maybe the Koreans could develop their own set of ordnance or even couple the TC-II ARH AAM from Taiwan into the package. But this could cause political concerns in the US.
GoldenDragonSince when did the USN and US Army become the world’s premier air force? 🙂
Perhaps you meant world’s premier military force?
Since I last read an editorial from Proceedings.
Yeah, you’re right, I meant premier military.
GoldenDragonThe only reason the ALH or Boeing or Airbus ever came up in this thread is the completely erroneous assumptions that the FC-1 is inferior to aircraft from India because the Chinese actually has an inferior industry.
The idea is entirely ludicrous. As stated in the posts above, China makes more, uses more and sells more aircraft and aircraft systems (including radars) than India. And by a wide, wide margin.
There are completely wrong assumptions that result from either arrogance (only the “undesirables” and “bottom of the pond” nations would buy from China) or simple lack of knowledge about China’s aviation history (the Z-6.)
The volume and amount of types produced by China across the aviation spectrum dwarves other Asian nations and most European ones except other members of the P5.
There are multiple institutions dealing with radars, missiles, engines, actuators and eletronics. Of course, each aircraft types (fighter, bomber, transport, light, heavy, civil, rotor) have multiple companies developing and producing them. Not just a single company like HAL.
The LCA, ALH and IJT all comes from HAL.
Chengdu makes the FC-1 and J-10, Hongdu the K-8 and Guizhou the JL-9.
And even in China’s weakest sector, helicopters, there are two companies. And the range of craft they produce is far greater than HAL. The Z-9 and the EC-120 for Harbin and the Z-8, Z-10 and Z-11 for Changhe. Not to mention the 5.5/6 tons medium helo project.
The reason for this huge range is both industrial capacity, China could make lots, and internal market, China will buy lots. (1)
The FC-1 that is is being developed by this industry will not be inferior to anything created in Asia for a comparable or even reasonably greater price. It’s an open system with no set avionics, engine or even FCS. If you are willing to equip it with an expensive western radar or engine you will have a plane more than capable.
No one will dispute that Western components and instruments will improve the FC-1.
But there is nothing that indicates that the Chinese systems, which the FC-1’s prototype 04 will carry, will be inferior to anything that is not Western or Russian. Certainly not anything from HAL.
And this reflected in the market place.
Every publication out there reports export interests in the FC-1. The LCA is not even listed as an export item anywhere.
This is my last word on the subject of the two national industries. There is simply no comparision.
I’ll return the thread to the FC-1.
——————————————————-
(1)http://www.ctiin.com.cn/english/technology/technology0209/0909-2.htm
“According to the survey, carried out by both Chinese and American experts, China’s demand for helicopters is expected to reach 2,000 by 2010 and 10,000 by 2020.”
GoldenDragonThe ERJ145 was also selected by China as one of its feeder planes for the coming decades. The first two were assembled at Harbin and sold just last month.
It seems this will be THE short/medium ranged jet utility platform of the future.
I’ve always wanted to see Embraer get beyond just the AMX on the military end of things. I would have love to see a new fighter design from them for the Brazilian F-X process (like the Cava was for Atlas.)
But this is one heck of a new military project, $billions in sales to the world’s premier air force. Not bad for the reputation 😀
Did Bombardier make a pitch also?
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