Titanium is expensive and difficult to work with. Thats two reasons why the Russian’s avoided it. The 70’s era Sukhoi T-4 was largely titanium, and never actually made it to service. When MiG were designing a Mach 4 bomber/recce (Izdeliye 301/321) in the late 80s, they were still going to use steel as the primary material.
Titanium is expensive and hard to work with but the Soviets certainly didn’t avoid it.
They used it, in an alloy, to build the hulls of submarines (Alphas and Sierras)!
The US did avoid titanium though. Partly because most of it came from Russia 😀
But you’re right, they never used it for large scale production such as for hundreds of planes. They went back to steel hulls for the Akulas.
Too late now to develop an indigenous F-4 replacement fighter, they now have two choices.
1. Procure another fighter in the interim while developing a new indigenous fighter.
2. With no immediate threat, and the US always looking after them, there is no rush to procure an interim fighter, just go ahead and develop the new indigenous fighter.
The article did point out a “rapid decision” on a F-4 replacements.
“Based on these conclusions, the agency has decided to discontinue procurement of the F-2, but to make a rapid start on selecting an aircraft to succeed the F-4 fighter, which will reach the end of its service life in the near future, the source said.”
So you’re right, probably too late for a homegrown aircraft. Now what is it the Germans replacing their F-4 with?
Japanese F-15Js carry 4 BVR AAMs and 4 WVR AAMs. The F-2 can carry 4 AAM-3 and 4 AIM-7. Where’s the disparity?
Range and performance at those loads?
Too lazy to look up the warload of a F-15 and that of a F-2 and check the TWR as way of comparision.
But I would imagine the performance of a F-16-like craft with a single F110 armed in that particular configuration would be far less than that of the F-15. There is little question of who would have better range carrying that load.
Doubtful the Japanese would make up excuses to stop production of a plane that is still a home project, inspite of the earlier acrimony over its design.
Of course, money is a big issue. They’re paying alot more for a plane that doesn’t quite match the F-15.
FTC2000
A babelfished article on the FTC2000 advance trainer. It’s older article, clearly before the appearance of the J-10B which probably would act as a trainer for the J-10.
A nice long detailed critique of the FTC2000, very balanced.
Main points are:
1) fast development and turn around based on a true and tried FT-7 design,
2) high performance for a trainer and would be a good lead-in for the FC-1 which was mentioned repeated in the article,
3) J-7E-type wings which offering high maneuverability,
4) side inlets allow a large radar and the new nose allows a better view for the pilots than the old FT-7, including for the instructor seated in the rear,
5) the author believes the project would have trouble with home sales if the FC-1 is not adopted by the PLAAF, he thinks that L-15 would have a leg up in competition since it would be a better trainer for new planes like the J-10 (he was writing before the J-10B)
6) foreign sales could be found with countries flying J-7s, MiG-21s and. later, FC-1s
On December 13, 2003, a new Chinese domestic product supersonic speed military airplane has carried on the initial test flight, this is the FTC- 2,000 supersonic speeds advanced trainer aircrafts which produces by the China aviation industry company first group subordinate Guizhou aviation industry company.
After continues 4 months the FC-1 fight nose flies, this test flight had further proven China improves its military equipment quality the determination. The Guizhou aviation industry company has the rich experience in the production trainer aircraft aspect, before once produced has annihilated teaches -7, namely annihilated -7 fighter aircraft the advanced pilot training version.
In fact, the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft is annihilates teaches -7 advanced version, its goal possibly is for maintain the Guizhou aviation industry company to provide the advanced trainer aircraft for the Chinese air force the status.
At present this machine model decides as FTC-2000 to indicate the Chinese air force did not plan officially uses this type, obviously produces the main goal is for the exportation. If the Chinese air force equips this molding machine, its code number should for annihilate teaches -9.
Technical performance
The FTC-2000 trainer aircraft 前机身 was out of the ordinary, has installed two off-axiss inlet, and had the separtor inserter to guard against the inspiration foreign matter.
This new design replaced the traditional Mig -21 fighter aircraft nose to let in air the design, the old style design had may install function and so on radar in machine the nose cone place.
The new style nose design has two advantage: On the one hand is may for aerospace system and so on the radar provide a bigger space, also is advantageous for the service; On the other hand is for enable the back seat pilot to have a better field of vision.
New annihilates the teaching machine 前机身 design to cause the cockpit back seat pilot the seat to be possible slightly to be higher than the forward-seat pilot, remarkably enhanced the back seat pilot’s field of vision. Annihilates teaches -7 two driver’s seats to be at the horizontal position in fact, the back seat pilot field of vision is not good.
Moreover, the integral type windshield has substituted for the traditional design, improved forward-seat pilot’s field of vision.
The FTC-2000 trainer aircraft with annihilates teaches -7 trainer aircraft to compare, another important improvement is the wing air operated contour. The standard Mig -21/ annihilates -7 fighter aircraft 三角翼 to replace by the new pair of 三角翼 design (does not have flap), in annihilated on the -7E fighter aircraft to apply this kind of technology.
This kind of wing because reduced the outboard wing leading edge swept back angle (by 57 reductions to 42) and lengthened the wingspan, made the wing area to increase 8.17%, the aspect ratio increased 27%, by 2.2 increased to 2.8. This first is advantageous to enhancing the mobility, meanwhile may enhance takes off and descends the performance.
The flight control system was still a mechanical type, very obviously is stems from the structure to be simple and the reduced construction cost goal. The production configuration FTC-2000 trainer aircraft will have a very important function (not yet to install on first frame experiment molding machine), namely in 前机身 right flank installs a stationary air refueling to poke head in.
This speaking of the Chinese domestic product airplane also is a new matter, and indirectly reflected the China military thought the change, namely changes more self-confident and the preparation to the Chinese tradition scope of interest outside local delivery strength.
Soon enters the active duty new fighter aircraft because the range is longer also may air refueling, definitely needs to receive the good training pilot in this aspect. Interesting is, the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft only will install false to refuel pokes head in, and not true flight refuelding capability, because certainly will not need to have this ability in the training.
About cockpit and its aerospace system disposition at present and not credible view. May see according to 全尺寸 the molding machine, FTC-2000 will install some kind of form “the glass type cockpit” and two to three multi-purpose display monitors, will only have the part of functional need 手动杆 operation to complete. In view of the fact that this machine will take the new generation of fighter aircraft (not only will be the FC-1 fighter aircraft moreover also includes large-scale, more advanced annihilates -10 fighter aircraft) pilot’s advanced trainer aircraft, on this trainer aircraft will possibly install the radar installation, just like nose contour intense suggestion such.
The advanced aeronautical equipment and the supersonic performance will cause the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft not only to be possible to take the advanced trainer aircraft and to will fly the fighter aircraft transition trainer aircraft, but also might cause the pilot after to accept the training directly to fly a fighter aircraft, shared the combat to transform the duty which the army 双座型 fighter aircraft shouldered. The FTC-2000 trainer aircraft has five 外挂点 (under each wing respectively to have two 外挂点, under fuselage has 外挂点), but annihilates teaches -7 to have three 外挂点.
This enhanced this molding machine to carry on the weapon launch training the ability, meanwhile had other operational aspects the advantage. Among them, 3 外挂点 may hang carries 500 litres to assist the fuel tank, but two wing tips hang the spot to be allowed to hang carry short-range air-to-air missile. When in November, 2000 the new trainer aircraft plan for the first time announces, is it provides the power the engine not yet to determine.
Annihilated teaches -7 equipment the WP7B engine and more modernized, the power stronger WP13 two axle 涡eruption motive all once is selected. At present most has the possibility to select is the WP13F engine, the thrust force is 44.2000 cows (4,500 kilograms), after opens the thrust augmentation the thrust force to be possible to increase to 64.8000 cows (6,699 kilograms).
This kind of engine approaches to western and Russia’s style, the thrust ratio reaches 5.6, two overhauls time interval for 500 flying hours, which aspect regardless of in all indicated the Chinese has made the considerable progress. Specially its good overall performance and under each kind of active status reliability.
Although on the surface looked has the obvious improvement, in fact the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft has still continued to use 20th century 50’s later periods traditional design, although this kind of design still is possibly practical.
Should plan the biggest superiority possibly to lie in very few and even does not have the technical risk, the development and the production cost all very low (this molding machine majority of components already airplane which produced quite same not less than with other).
Therefore, if the Chinese air force decided orders this machine, the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft will enter the active duty process both to be easy and to be rapid. In fact, the airplane manufacture company suggested in 2005 the volume production this machine.
Moreover, the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft also possibly obtains some to export the order form, at least these equip China to produce annihilates -7 fighter aircraft, annihilates teaches -7 trainer aircraft and soon equips the new FC-1 fighter aircraft the country possibly to be able to order this airplane.
Competition between company’s
But, moreover a large-scale company is the China aviation industry company second group also intends for the Chinese air force to produce one kind of new advanced trainer aircraft. (Develops with the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft competition from Chengdu aviation industry group’s L-15 for the Chinese air force annihilates teaches -15 trainer aircraft).
This molding machine design thought and the FTC-2000 molding machine design thought is completely different. Annihilated teaches -15 trainer aircraft is one kind of brand-new advanced trainer aircraft, the fuselage designs has used the most advanced technology, meanwhile had the advanced control system, “the glass type” the cockpit and two augmented engines (possibly is WS11, AI-222K-25F or the DV-2F engine), maximum speed 1.4 Mach.
Moreover, annihilated teaches -15 trainer aircraft to install the swept back high wing, time the great angle flight performance also obtained strengthened. Under the wing has disposed two sides air inlets, in order to all can guarantee the engine under any posture to obtain the sufficient air.
The L-15 trainer aircraft is specially for trains, specially considered when great angle flight which the pilot designs makes the maneuver the need, tallies soon equips the army to annihilate -10 and annihilates -11 fighter aircraft the need.
Estimated in 2005 will carry on the initial test flight, if the test flight can as scheduled complete, effectively will counterbalance the FTC-2000 trainer aircraft in the simple fast aspect superiority.
This competition or accurately said is in the advanced trainer aircraft domain two kind of designs mentality, exactly had reflected the fighter aircraft domain faces similar question. If develops advanced annihilates -10 fighter aircraft, will face the technical risk and the fund is difficult; The development not that advanced but the extremely practical traditional model airplane like FC-1 fighter aircraft, in the technology mature moreover the expense is inexpensive.
In fact, whether does the related company really in carry on in the western significance the competition to be worth discussing, they possibly only are defer to the order basis different design thought to carry on the research and development work but the oneself.
May firmly be, the political goal is for guarantee the Chinese air force to be allowed to obtain its need the equipment (possibly by no means its to hope equipment), simultaneously rapidly enhances our country aviation industry the technical ability and the potential, catches up with the world aviation industry the newest tidal current.
The worth noting is, at present Asia will be developing two kinds (next year to have three kinds) the model supersonic advanced trainer aircraft, but Europe’s main airline still has not up to now been able to obtain the enough finance and the political support by is in it the design model stage the MAKO trainer aircraft plan to continue to work.
Only if above four kind of models airplane all “the height is finally matched” by the Chinese air force basis principle order, otherwise advanced trainer aircraft plan potential essential fighter aircraft model influence. Annihilates -7, the F-8 and the FC-1 fighter aircraft pilot aspect in the training, annihilates teaches -9 trainer aircraft is without doubt old style annihilates teaches -7 best substitute, but annihilates -10 fighter aircraft pilot aspect in the training to have the very big limitation, annihilates in the training -11 is the Soviet -30MKK fighter aircraft pilot aspect is so.
Therefore, if the Chinese air force does not equip the FC-1 fighter aircraft, then the FTC- 2,000 training have the possibility to fail to be elected, otherwise needs to adopt revises remedial treatment and so on its training program.
In on the other hand, annihilates teaches -15 trainer aircraft although was considered is the training annihilates -10, annihilates -11 fighter aircraft pilot’s ideal choice, but will want the large-scale equipment army to consume the large amount of money, moreover regarding will train the FC-1 fighter aircraft pilot to say too advanced, will be complex.
Well, seen from the Japanese standpoint and their experience with the F-15 (as well as the F-4), the F-2 DOES have a limited payload. Especially, for the price they’re paying.
Remember, it’s a larger and heavier airframe with the same GE F110 engine as the F-16.
Also, there is probably still a lot of local dissatisfaction with what many Japanese think is a compromised design.
do you have the original pic GD?? and excellent pic, and yeah nose looks kind of out of place, photo angle proly…
If I did I would post it 🙂 But it would be nice if someone have it.
The nose does look strange as well as all the straight edges. But that is evidence of cropping not necessarily tampering with the image of the plane itself.
Quite a few planes are above parity under certain configuration and fuel load conditions. The F-16 is one of them.
Conversely, very few planes are above 1:1 when on a full tank and on a strike mission. An air superiority mission and no droptanks is the best configuaration for high TWR.
The F-15C is most often pointed to as a fighter over unity. This is true on a full tank with two MRAAMs and two IRAAMs at a little over 1:1. Once fuel is burned off the TWR raises quickly.
The F-15C can carry 8 AAMs (including 6 AMRAAMs.) Under this load it would be under unity at takeoff and would need to burn off fuel to reach unity in that case.
The entire FC-1 in the above pict is cropped out of another photo. That’s why you see the jagged lines. The background is a diffferent photo. The FC-1 itself is whole and doesn’t seem to have much tampering.
The rule of thumb among modeling to do one side first so you do not have to duplicate your effort and kepp things in line.
But it is go to clone the other half and look at one’s handiwork from time to time 😀
Oh c’mon you big tease, just tell us already.
Crobs doesn’t want a flamewar and another locked FC1 thread 🙂
According to a post in the Chinese-languaged wforum:
There are several air-defense projects that had resulted from China’s acquisition of the S-300, the Tor-M and other Russian area defense systems since 1992.
The projects are
“Red Flag 15” or HQ-15: which is a Chinese version of the S-300PMU1.
HQ-16: a brand new system; defined as a low/medium altitude, medium range SAM; effective from 100 to 20,000 meters, the reaction time 6 to 8 seconds, a missile group may simultaneously attack 8 airborne targets, the single shot kill probability is 90%, vertical launch and a phase array radar,
HQ-17:Chinese version of the Tor-M1; slated to replace the HQ-61. Currently, this system is high-level research and development stage. Present progress is smooth and if it continues at this pace, estimated service entry would be about 2005.
Possible Chinese license production of the S-300V. If negotiations happens and ToT is given then this would be “the Red Flag 18” or HQ-18.
Will do, Phrozen, though there is work to be done before creating the different canopy materials.
Agree with Indian on this one. Besides, there isn’t all that much difference between the B412 and the new UH-1Y currently undergoing testing with the USMC, except of course that the B412s will be built as new airframes.
Well, it is rather obvious the 412 was ordered because it is a followon to the UH-1 (and the 212.) It is a type that Pakistan is used to, is operating in large numbers and have experience maintaining.
Was no where eolse to post it and thought best to consolidate all Pakistani news.
Pakistan Army should have a chopper fleet of about 300+ choppers very soon.
I think the strategy is to develop a single air assault brigade
After US and Russian deliveries fleet should look like this
100 MF-17s – Observation/liason/training
30 Pumas
30 MI-17s
40 Bell 206s
40 Bell 406
60 UH-1s
26 Bell 212
60 AH-1 Cobras
20 Alloutte 2
20 Alloute 3To be honest the problem may be far to many chopper types in service.
Surely they can standardize on 3 types?
I think all the allouttes may be disposed of soon though
Well, the Bell 206 and 406 are versions of one type (the Kiowa) and so are the UH-1s, Bell 212s and the new 412s (all Hueys, Huey followons.)
It’s not as messy as the listings might look. Most good sized air forces have multiple versions of choppers.
Also. many Western copters share components and engineering philosophies so the Pumas and Alouettes (though very old) won’t be entirely foreign to people maintaining US types.
The MI-17 is the one really different machine. But there are only 30 of those.
100 MF-17? MF(I)-17s are Mushaks/Super Mushaks right? Not Copters.
The initial radar on the prototype marked for systems integration, 04, will be a Chinese one according to publications. Though what they put in 01 and 03 when the time comes could be anything.
I would imagine at this early date in development those two are undergoing strictly flight related testing. So uncertain whether they will put anything in those in the near future.
Previous photos of 01’s during assembly show nose cone and mountings for a radar so I would imaagine that it’ll play a role in integration at some point.