Willingness to sell to anyone doesnt have a logical
link to the quality of products.

It’s the ability to sell an aircraft, however “low tech,” to any market. There are very few countries that can build a plane from beginning to end and sell it. In Asia, only China has that ability – though there is a growing capability from South Korea.

Compare systems for their specs and known merits and demerits.

You can’t beat the market place for actual comparision. Everything else is simply good debate material to pass time.

Most of the countries you state cannot afford to buy anything more expensive or better not even from russia because russia has long stopped making mig21 style planes and the western utility a/c are not cheap.

Again, China fills a niche. Russia sells better equipment to better off nations. The US and Europe sell the best equipment to the nations with the largest budgets.

The world’s markets, military and civilian, are filled by an extremely small circle of countries. China is one within that circle.

If you try to compare a country that couldn’t even sell to the third world niche market to China, there is simply no comparision.

By 2001, AVIC II’s sub units had exported “717 aircraft to 24 countries.” (1) And AVIC II doesn’t even include the big fighter makers Chengdu or Shenyang who sold hundreds of F-7s and F-6s.

In fact, most of the countries where AVIC II products like the Y12 are sold have varied inventories. Peru has both Russian and Western equipment.

There is simply no other country outside of the West and Russia, with the exception of Brazil and Embraer, in either the military or civilian markets with this track record or ability.

China has a whole series of radar types – ground, naval and airborne – that have been exported too. It also has two BVRAAMs, the SD-10 and FD-60, that are up for export.

That said, if there is one country that can challenge China for its niche in the aviation market, it would be South Korea. Anything out of Japan is simply too pricey and would have to go head to head with Europeans and Americans in their niche.

The KT-1, which had already been sold to Indonesia, and the T/A-50 would be the second major aviation maker in Asia after China. The Korean technical base is immensely strong and it is a first rate economic powerhouse. Taiwan had a chance in the 1980s but has given up the aviation game to pursue more profitable industries so the will isn’t there.

None of this changes the fact that the FC-1 is currently the only fighter from Asia attracting actual export interest. The reason for this is China’s track record and the fact it has a worldwide market.

————————————————————————
Notes:
http://www.beijingaviation.com/aviation/2001/report/oavicii.htm
Opening Speech of AVIC II in the 9th Aviation Expo: (presented by Dr. Zhang Yanzhong )

A few interesting things from an old text file I found in me cluttered HD.

In 1997, the Thai navy sent an task force to escort the sea and air trials of the new Chakri Nareubet. The Thai force included the Naresuan (621) and the Taksin (622) which are F25Ts and the Kraburi (457) an 053HT (this model differs from the first two Thai Jianghu frigates by having a helopad instead of a second gun turret.)

I don’t have the pennant numbers for the support/replenishment ship(s) but I would imagine that to support the journey of three frigates there would be one – unless the made port calls along the way to replenish fuel and supplies.

At any rate, the Thai navy had traditionally been a competent one, especially in SE Asia. Sending a good sized force from Thai to European waters is no mean feat for a small Asian navy.

The Chakri Nareubet has turned into a bit of financial nightmare. Not only was the initial purchase of the hull huge, but there are still huge expenses left to be laid out for completing the weapons and search/aquisition on the ship. Not to mention that the operating costs are considered prohibitive by the Thai navy.

And not to mention the training of the air crew. As of 2003, the Harrier wing operates entirely from land. The carrier only leaves port a few times a year but only with the Seahawks helos.

What’s more, the carrier is highly criticized by the politicans as being impractical and a white elephant – the Chakri Nareubet has special accomodations for the Royal family and was lambasted as a royal yacht.

The financial fallout of the carrier – which very unluckily arrived in Thailand during the Asian financial crisis in 1998 – has affected the Thai navy’s other programs, including the submarine program, which was cancelled, and the re-equipping of the fleet’s other ships (which probably includes the installation program of the Naresuans’ western systems.)

So the question on the MK 41 VLS that is seemingly missing from the pictures is very valid. In fact, now that I’ve looked into it, I don’t think they were installed since the Sea Sparrow for the launchers are supposed to be controlled by the STIR FC from Thales and according to SIPRI, even these systems (ordered in 1994), were not confirmed as being installed yet.

I’m beginning to wonder about another issue. Can smaller navies really operate carriers without throwing the rest of the fleet into disarray?

It seems that the cost of operating a carrier and airwing, even for a small carrier like the Chakri Nareubet, is way out of proportion to the budget a smaller navy normally operates on. Though Brazil and Argentina (1) had operated theirs for years.

I wonder if small carriers are cost effective for even Spain or Italy, though these are richer nations with larger budgets.

Notes
(1)The Veinticinco De Mayo might be anothr case in point. It was laid up through most of its career and was a no show in the Falklands conflict.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/argent.htm
“Operational: Initially operated combined ASW and strike air wing. The ship was in deteriorated condition by the 1980’s, and played no major role in the Falklands war.

Departure from Service/Disposal: Inoperable due to poor condition by 1985. She was scheduled for re-engining and modernization, and the her old engines were removed in preparation for reconstruction, but the work was never carried out. Her hulk remained in nominal reserve until 1997, when it was announced that she would be scrapped.”

India can build good enough avionics indegenously, expect Chinese to be on par or better.

Egads!

Seriously, Phrozen, there is absolutely no comparision between the aviation industries of the two countries (avionics being but one part of the vast sprawling set of disciplines needed to build aircraft, no matter how low tech the plane.)

There are multiple firms in China dealings with each step in the building aircraft from radar to engine to final assembly.

Open up Janes and you’ll see under the China entry that the Chinese aviation industry has built over 14,000 aircraft with 10,000 of them being military.

China exports aircraft every year. It has a list – a growing list – of countries buying its aircraft and that includes Western nations such as US, Canada and Australia. It also has a list of customers from a long series of models sold through the decades.

AVIC II had sold Y8F200s to Tanzania, Z-9s to Mauritania, Ma60s to Laos and Y-12s to Canada. And CJ6As all over the Western world, including the US.

There are those who ridicule the list of customers as mainly third world nations but that is China’s main niche market. A market is a market and very few countries in the world has the ability to sell to any market.

Certainly, the country which is supposedly equal to China in avionics couldn’t even crack the third world market.

There is absolutely no comparision between the two. List one aircraft this other country has exported and I can list hundreds upon hundreds sold by the Chinese industry. I could do it even without listing the Pakistani sales.

The FC-1 will sell, as many analysts Chinese or otherwise have predicted, because Chengdu already has a list of countries that had bought its models before.

There is simply no comparision between the FC-1’s export potential and any other fighter built elsewhere Asia. Absolutely none.

AFM, Air International, JDW and others have reported interests in the FC-1 from multiple nations. Zimbabwe and Bangladesh even had government officials quoted on the FC-1. Iran and Egypt had officials evaluating it.

Of all the other Asian fighters, only the export interest I’ve come across is Vietnam looking at the possibilty of the T-50.

So the idea that somehow a country which has no external customers for its planes could be equal in avionics or anything else to a country that had sold hundreds and will sell many hundreds more with the incoming new models and variants of the FC-1, FTC-2000, MA60, Y-12IV, K8 and Y8(200, 400, 600 and Y8X) is unrealistic to say the least, my friend 🙂

Mass assault!