GoldenDragonNowadays you won’t make strong strategic partners with F-7s. If I was in charge, in their position I would sell the J-10 to whoever commited to buy, only somewhat limiting the numbers for controversal customers in order to keep the US calm. My 0.02..
No, you make strong, strategic partners with economic deals. Military sales/exports are a side benefit.
China’s influence in Iran comes from its oil and economic deals not its weapons sales.
GoldenDragonThe ARJ-21 taking shape. From CFM:
GoldenDragonVery informative, Sean.
GoldenDragonWhether or not Singapore decides on the Hawk or T-50, the T-50 will be a pretty major seller. It is the only new trainer with American input on the market.
Practically every air force equipped with US aircraft will at least take a look at the T-50 when contracting for a new trainer. Not to say that the Hawk will not win its share of those decisions as an advance/lead-in trainer for American planes (the US Navy uses the Goshawk — a Hawk variant.)
GoldenDragonYou keep on referring back to 1996, it’s not 1996 anymore.
Again, you have no idea of what the term means but you still insist on using it. If you understand military exports and the history of Chinese aircraft, you would know that the F-8IIm was first offered in 1996. The F-8IIM offered was better than any known variant of J-8. The J-8F appeared years after the F-8IIM.
Again, it is pure idiocy to think in this way. It’s tantamount to saying that the F-15C is a “monkey” version of F-15E. They are two different variants from two different time periods.
The J-8F to Iran story is mentionned by numerous credible sources on Chinese bbs.
There are far more credible stories of Iranians disliking any Chinese aircraft (and who wouldn’t when you have the F-14) much less an old Soviet-style aircraft like the J-8II.
I absolutely doubt that the Iranians asked for the J-8 of any variants. I’m far more inclined to believe the rumors that they asked for the JH-7/A and were denied. The JH-7A would have caused a massive reaction from the US and the West because of the anti-shipping aspect.
The J-8? Highly unlikely. It makes absolutely no sense to anyone who followed the Iranian air force.
GoldenDragonHe has proven absolutely nothing. Why don’t you try to explain how he explained my F-8IIM and J-8F example? Rather than just being loud and stating your belief without any proof.
Tphuang, not only do you have no understanding of the term “monkey” version before throwing it around (it is associated with Soviet exports, NEVER Chinese ones,) you don’t even understand the history of the F-8IIM before repeatedly using it as “evidence.”
Again, the F-8IIM was first offered in 1996. It was superior to every other J-8II variant that we know of at the time. The J-8F is only reaching the PLAAF in numbers now.
The so-called J-8F “story” with Iran is just that — a story. But even if it were true, the F-8II came years before it. It is utter stupidity to call an earlier version a “monkey” of the later version. Monkey variants are deliberate downgraded versions of current models.
The F-8IIM cannot be a “monkey” version of something that came years later. The F-15C is not a “monkey” version of the F-15E. So understand your terminology.
China has systems it never offered for sale like SSNs — but it has never sold a “monkeyized” version of anything it offered.
Your blog is great but it is not the end all, be all. And it pales in comparison to the open discussion we have in the Chinese speculation/news threads (now in its 11th extension) in this very forum.
GoldenDragonMain landing gear and movable covers.
GoldenDragonFrom Bundeswehr99-00 at CMF. Moving parts for canards, canopy and all three wheels of the landing gear. Very nice.
GoldenDragonAs I stated many times, F-8IIM is a classical example of monkey version of the plaaf version. You clearly can’t refute it except keep on stating your stubborn opinions.
Again, you are incorrectly using a term applied to the USSR that can’t be applied to the track record of Chinese exports.
And again, the F-8IIM when it was first introduced in 1996 was better than any of the J-8II variants, the PLAAF had at the time. Aside from the few armed with PL-11, the vast majority of the J-8IIs, including the then new J-8D were armed with PL-8 as their “long range” missile. The F-8IIM was armed with the R-27.
You have no idea what the term means, TPhuang, so don’t use it and let this thread return Pakistani missiles.
GoldenDragonBesides, you do realize that a lot of the J-7Gs are flying with WP-14 right? Does that sound like inferior to F-7PG to you?
When the F-7PG first flew in Pakistan, the PLAAF was using the J-7E.
There were never a “monkey” version of the F-7 or the F-8II. When they were offfered, they were superior to the variants that China got.
The F-8II is a non starter, it was never sold. No one ever bought it. So if were a “monkey” version then it proves Asaracen’s comment that no one would ever buy a monkeyized version of a Chinese aircraft.
The items that China does sell are traditionally better than the variants that China’s own armed forces received.
Again, don’t mis-use the term “monkey variant.” A monkey version is a term for Soviet aircraft that were deliberately downgraded. There are no Chinese product that anyone bought which were deliberately downgraded. Nearly all are upgraded compared to the home system.
Tech that are not for export are simply not for export. You can’t use those and say the different systems that China sold were “monkeys.” At least use the term correctly.
When it does export it’s best platforms, they are in downgraded forms.
China was never able to sell a downgraded form of anything. This is the same in the civilian as well as the military sectors.
Stuff like JF-17, MBT-2000 and F-7 are not the top of line stuff in China, so pla can allow a non-downgraded version of these things exported. But they are not used as the front-line unit in China.
The MBT-2000 would have been better than any of the thousands of Type 59/69s still in Chinese service. The F-7PG was better than every one of the hundreds of J-7s in PLAAF when it came out.
Let’s not kid ourselves. There were no monkeyized forms in Chinese exports.
There were systems that were not sold because of security reasons. But the variants which were exported were nearly all the best form of that particular system.
Yet, according to you, China cannot come up with a radar that fits Pakistan’s requirement.
Nothing that China can export reaches Pakistan’s requirement. It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if China has far better systems that it’s not exporting.
China doesn’t have an exportable radar that can contend with the exportable radars of other nations so to Pakistan, China simply doesn’t have the technology.
That said, this in the past. There is no guarantee that Pakistan will find a better radar for the JF-17 or the J-10 when they get those aircraft.
GoldenDragonAnyone who has taken a look at the F-8IIM + J-8F situation would not make a comment like China does not offer monkey versions.
One, the F-8IIM was first offered in the Zhuhai airshow in 1996. The J-8F first entered service in 2003 and is just appearing in numbers now. Since the vast majority of J-8s (of any variants) weren’t even armed with a bvr missile in 1996, the F-8IIM was certainly not inferior at the time.
Two, there were never any news of Iran asking for the J-8F aside from forum rumors.
It is entirely erroneously to think the F-8IIM was a “monkey” or downgraded version of the J-8II.
Beyond that, no J-8II of any variant was ever sold to anyone. Claiming that it was “denied” to Iran is fallacious since we can’t tell whether China is keeping its best at home or simply nobody wanted the aircraft anywhere.
We do know that aircraft that people did want — F-7, K-8, etc. — definitely were NOT inferior in their export variants. The J-7G, for example, was derived from the PG and came into the PLAAF after type flew with the PAF.
GoldenDragonNot entirely military but an important step in China’s aviation industry. A private firm being involved in the design of the large commercial jet project.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2007-09/21/content_6124508.htm
Private company eyes key aircraft project
By Lu Haoting (China Daily)
Updated: 2007-09-21 10:09A private Chinese company is looking to take a share of the nation’s large commercial aircraft project being developed in a sector that’s usually monopolized by State-owned firms.
Guangdong Changsheng Aircraft Design Co Ltd, a private company backed by a real estate developer, plans to become a shareholder in a joint stock company that will take charge of China’s large commercial aircraft project. The private company wants to do the conceptual and aerodynamic design of the new aircraft.
The company brought six 1:50 aircraft models to the Aviation Expo/China 2007 that opened in Beijing on Wednesday. The models include three 150- to 200-seat single-aisle aircraft and three 200- to 300-seat twin-aisle airplanes.
It has completed the conceptual aircraft design process, said Zhou Jisheng, general manager of Guangdong Changsheng.
The government said in March that a joint stock company would be established to take charge of the development of China’s own large commercial airplane. The country plans to make large aircraft by 2020 and the design process will start during the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2006-10). The government has not released details of the design, including size, cruise speed or range.
Guangdong Changsheng Chairman Zou Xichang said he would like to invest “several hundred million yuan” in the new company. Zou was ranked 70th on Forbes’ list of the richest Chinese in 2005.
“We also hope to invest with the technologies we have,” Zou said.
Guangdong Changsheng has about 30 aircraft designers and engineers. Eight of them used to be major designers of China’s Y-10 passenger jet and the ARJ21 regional jet. The Y-10 was developed by China in the 1970s, but never entered commercial service. The ARJ21 is now in final assembly and will begin service in late 2009.
GoldenDragon“We are trying to catch up with the advanced countries. It’s a very complicated system, as it involves every military unit,” Xu Guangyu, a retired Chinese general, told AFP.
“I think we need at least ten years to catch up with the world’s most sophisticated nations,” he said……….
The most sophisticated nations are also China’s peers on the UN Security Council. There are only five nations in the world with their own nuclear subs and there are only five nations in the world who can build a fighter from scratch without a single screw from the outside world. China is one of them, one of the UNSC P5.
The J-8F might not be as good as the F-22 or Typhoon but no other fighter jet outside the P5 can match it without using an American, British, French or Russian engine, radar and a thousand and one other things that goes into a Gripen, Kfir, Alpha Jet or Cheetah.
GoldenDragonThe “parallel” systems from China — JL-8/K-8E, J-7E/F-7MG/PG are nearly always base Chinese systems where the exported ones are replaced with foreign parts.
They are never two variants of aircraft where one version has better Chinese components than the other. This pattern is directly opposite of the Soviet monkey versions where some systems were deliberately downgraded.
As for the JF-17/J-10 being the “turning points” in Chinese aviation exports, the J-10 wasn’t even official until Pakistan pushed for its export. The first official acknowledgment of the aircraft came from the Pakistani government not the Chinese when they tagged the J-10 as one of their choices.
The JF-17 as we all know was designed for Pakistan with little news of interest from the PLAAF.
The JF-17 is looking to be the modern day F-7 for China (even though the F-7 is still selling) as the key export to roughly the same set of customers China always had.
GoldenDragonI don’t believe China is still offering its best for export by the way, or else they would be selling their ZTZ-99Gs instead of MBT-2000s.
The ZTZ-99 is a completely different tank from the MBT-2000/Type-90. This is entirely different from the “monkey” variants being thrown around in this discussion.
A “monkey” variant is a deliberately degraded export version of an existing weapon system like the Mig-21PF.
This terminology was never used in conjunction with China because the variants it sold or attempted to sell — the F-7PG, F-8IIM, Type 85, etc. were all superior to the versions of the same systems (J-7E, J-8II, Type 80) that the PLA were getting at the time. There are no “monkey” versions of the K-8, Y-12, PLZ-45 or any of the Chinese systems being exported now.
Again, systems that China didn’t want to fall into Western hands were simply not sold — like the J-10 (until recently) or KJ-2000. Systems not for sale are simply that — systems not for sale. There are no degraded monkey variants for them.
Whatever China did sell or does sell today are definitely not “monkey” versions since they are almost universally better than the variants of the same systems that the PLA are getting.
We should at least get the terminology correct.
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