GoldenDragon…
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GoldenDragonSince we’re on speculations, the latest on the mythical 051C!
It is still mythical 😀 😀 😀
Someone posted this on the Chinese boards :p
A picture of Dalian shipyard the great mythical is supposedly being built (babelfished caption):
Fierce chart: Dalian’s 051C progress is slow!
GoldenDragonMore speculation fresh off from the Chinese BBS!
They are saying that Yantar Shipyard have agian resumed the construction of 2 Ivan Rogovs, idle on the stock from the soviet days for a certain east asian country… Any one have anything on that?
Not much more. Highly uncomfirmed and speculative. Babelfished. Probably the same article you read.
[ Transfers placard ] the Russian Iraq 10000. The Rogov level large-scale landing craft allies China
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2004-06-06 14:48:56 clicks:1291
[ Transfers placard ] the Russian Iraq 10000. The Rogov level large-scale landing craft allies China
It is reported, Russia raises 塔尔 the shipyard to step up
The Rogov level large-scale landing craft allies China
It is reported, Russia raises 塔尔 the shipyard to step up Iraq which constructs 2 Soviet time not to finish 10000. Rogov level greatly good landing craft. The fixed purchase country is China!
Fully loaded displacement: 14060t.
Standard displacement: 8260t.
Captain: 157.5m.
Ship wide: 24.5m.
Drinking water: 6.5m, 8.5m (dock pours water).
Speed: 19kn.
Endurance: 7500n mile/14kn.
Personnel organization: 239 people (military officer 37 people).
Military transport ability: 522 soldiers (1 camp). 20 tanks or equipollent small coastal transport and truck. Shipyard cabin 内载 3 “swan” level hovercraft or 6 mechanized forces landing craft.
Power unit: 2 M8K gas turbine, the power is 29.4MW (48,000 horsepower), two axle.
Missile: 1 pair of association installs SA-N-4 “the gecko” the ship ground-to-air missile launching device, semi-active radar homing, firing distance 15km, flying speed 2.5Ma, warhead heavy 50kg, flight altitude 9.1 ~ 3048m, altogether 20 missiles. 2 four-rack SA-N-5 “cup plate” ship ground-to-air missile launching device, manual aiming, infrared homing, firing distance 6km, flying speed 1.5Ma, warhead heavy 1.5kg.
Naval gun: 1 pair of association installs the 76mm/60 artillery, the elevation angle 80°, rate of fire 60 round /min, firing distance 15km, bullet weight 6.8kg. 1 122mm the BM-22 artillery (海军型), 2 20 install the rocket mount, firing distance 20km. 4 30mm/65 AK 630 artillery, each 6, rate of fire 3,000 round /min, firing distance 2km.
Countermeasure: 16 PK 10 and 4 PK 16 baits launching device. 2 “cover the clock” the electronic reconnaissance equipment and 2 “the desk clock” the electronic countermeasure equipment.
Fire control system: 2 “sign box” optical director.
Radar: “The roof” A ground-to-air/searches three coordinates radars to the sea, the E wave band.
Navigation – 2 “Don River” or “palm leaf” radar, I wave band.
Fire control – “the owlet cry” the radar, the G wave band (accuses the 76mm artillery). 2 “the crooked basswood” the radar, the H/I wave band (accuses the 30mm artillery). “Appears suddenly the group” the radar, the F/H/I wave band (guides the SA-N-4 missile).
The carrier-borne air craft approach control – “flies the screen” and “flies the nail” the radar, I wave band.
“塔康” – 2 “圆屋” radio tactic guidance system.
Foe identification – “salty pot” B system.
Sound: “Mouse tail” invariable depth sound, initiative search, high frequency.
Helicopter: 4 cards 29- “snail” B helicopter.
Explained: “Rice 特罗 every not 斯卡伦科” the ship is this level of ships third, in July, 1989 launched in the Kalinin Geleg, in March, 1991 completed the cruise. This level of ships fourth has not finished. This level of ships are equipped with 舌门, leads to the tank deck, has flushes the beach ability, the tank deck size is long 61m, extends 14m. Freight capacity 2500t. The tail gate opens enters the shipyard cabin, shipyard cabin long 76m, extends 14m. The first helicopter was falling the spot to have the flight control station, the rear part has equipped the similar helicopter deck and the hangar. The helicopter may enter the storehouse from the hangar. The fuel and the solid military supplies military supplies position is located in the host overtop structure. This level of ships belong to the North Sea fleet. 2 belonged to the Pacific fleet this level of ships and in 1997 retired in 1996. It is reported, in these 2 ships possibly has 1 reassignment for Indonesia, but this news not after confirmation.
Edition: Long Xin
GoldenDragonVery Splendid!
From the Chinese language boards. A Chinese post on a recent Chinese aviation publication.
State Council Vice-Premier the Zeng Peiyan toured CAC and saw the FC-1 and a “key two-seater.” Obviously the J-10B.
Media still unable to officially spit out the word “J-10” 😀
Zeng Peiyan inspects flies the company to watch the owlet dragon and the J-10 双座 test flight
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2004-06-07 00:54:16 clicks:457
Chinese net news: Recently, the Chinese aviation newspaper had reported Zeng Peiyan inspects Cheng Fei the news, reported disclosed for the first time, Zeng Peiyan observed some key model double-seater air show, but this key model double-seater was very possibly the J-10 double-seater.
The aviation newspaper reports stated that, on May 26, Central Political Bureau committee members, State Council Vice-Premier the Zeng Peiyan and the party inspected the Chengdu airplane industry (group) the company, and watched the key model, the owlet dragon airplane report flight.
It is reported, 11 o’clock, the Zeng Peiyan and the party go by car to go to the overhead wire. 11 o’clock 08 minute, the owlet dragon 03 airplanes as soon as fly flush the day, “came up!” Zeng Peiyan takes the lead to blow up holds. “This is improves in the original airplane foundation?” Luo Ronghuai replies that, this airplane from the design idea to the craft, the manufacture, the management, all is the brand-new current aircraft. 11 o’clock 14 minute, after some key model double-seater short distance slides soars, in airborne departs a succession of stunner, Zeng Peiyan often applauds applauds. 11 o’clock 23 minute, two airplanes safe landing.
The aviation repays a kindness suitably, Zeng Peiyan 快步 walks to the key model airplane in front of, is gripping tightly the test flight expert, the chief pilot Lei Qiang hand, repeatedly praises: “Is extremely splendid! Extremely splendid!” And said affectionately that, “I have watched many times the test flight, but this is first time sees that many splendid movement – key or our airplane to be good!” Afterwards, he steps onto the staircase with a handrail, bends down carefully to observe and emulate in the cabin, simultaneously listens to Lei Qiang the introduction. “This airplane the cruise duration, the maximum speed, how many is the maximum range respectively?” “Which is prominent characteristics has compared to now the advanced airplane?” He asked while pondered, after obtains satisfaction reply, he happily said: “Good, wins for the motherland! .
Edition: Long Xin
GoldenDragonThe another pict of the Mountain Eagle, unclear if this is the first or second prototype 😀
GoldenDragoni could say that Chinese aircraft suck because the pavements i walked on in China were really, really bad.
Arthur, both you and I know that a lot of people DO say that concerning China 😀
Sutton, the Mig-15 pilot, had said as much until he came across a Chinese plane.
China is seen as having crappy aircraft by default because it is viewed as a third world nation (which she is.)
But in 17th Europe, when Chinoiserie was at its height, people had the opposite perception of Chinese goods.
I would say most people on the board believe that Chinese aircraft are subpar and it is not hard to understand since Western technology and craftmanship have been so dominant in the world for the past 200 years.
People always compare things to standards they know about.
There is little doubt that Western products are superior across the board on a wide scale. That fact is played out on the battlefields and the markets (which are the greatest battlefields.)
What changed goods from Japan (and Taiwan and S. Korea) from being considered garbage these days was a deliberate move towards western standards. This is exactly what is happening in China today.
Attempting to compare the J-6s of 1960s and 1970s is the same as comparing Chinese products from Tang and Ming dynasties with the rest of the world then. The Cultural Revolution Age in China is dead and gone just as the Tang and Ming.
Chinese planes and ships are made with machining tools from Japan and Europe. Designs are made by young people who are increasingly educated in the US and Europe.
The fit and finish of the J-11s are better than the Su-27SKs simply because there is more and more access to Western-style standards, ideals and machines that are perpetuated by China’s Westernized East Asian neighbors.
GoldenDragonTaken today
The Il-76 AWACs over Nanjing, picture taken on 06-04-04
GoldenDragonAs the Mig-15/17 pilot Dave Sutton said in Crobato’s post:
“Don’t ask me why, but their stuff is of much better fit and finish than the European stuff. I know it is weard and does not fit in with most peoples pre-conceived ideas but it is true.”
People have pre-conceived ideas until they actually come across the product.
Notions and ideas about people change over time.
The English in 1890 thought German products were crap. 1960 + 70s America thought “Made in Japan” was the mark of cheap, inferior electronics.
Perceptions changed when enough people used German and Japanese products.
In China’s case because of its long history, its reputation went from being famous in European consciousness as skilled makers of world-class luxuries like silk and porcelain in Roman and Medieval times to one today of being the supplier of Walmart cheapies. Another 10 years, who knows what happens?
GoldenDragonThe better production quality was repeated by Sukhoi in 2003.
http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2000_2003/reports/mair1.htm
This Sukhoi official was also willing to talk about the PLA’s desire to “indigenize” the J-11 with substantial new Chinese-made components, like radar, engines and avionics. He said that the PLA was capable of doing all these things but that it would take the PLA “ten years” to realize an indigenized J-11. But when they did so, he expected that the PLA would also sell this fighter. This new J-11 is expected to carry PLA-made weapons like the SD-10 active-guided AAM, precision attack weapons, radar and a new “glass” cockpit of digitized avionics. The main goal of the program is to make a fighter capable of both fighter and attack missions—something the baseline Su-27SK/J-11 cannot do. This individual also confirmed comments by a Sukhoi official at the 2002 Zhuhai show that Shenyang J-11s have a better production finish than those made at the KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk.
GoldenDragonCrobato beats me! His computer roladex is rather more efficiently arranged than mine (which is too cluttered up with pictures) :p
GoldenDragonThis is somewhat of an article of faith on keymags.
Seeing the article itself would be a refreshing change. 🙂
And you shall have it my friend.
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=static&page=zhuhai2002
Report on the Zhuhai Airshow
November 3-8, 2002
by Richard Fisher, Adjunct Fellow….
The same Sukhoi official expressed immense surprise in SAC’s ability to improve its production quality in the last three years. The official confirmed that Russian engineers had to be brought in to correct significant production flaws for the first two J-11s. But he also noted that SAC has procured modern production equipment from Russia, Japan, Sweden and the US. With visible embarrassment, he stated that the production finish for the SAC produced fighters is better than that for Russian-made fighters.
GoldenDragonYou’re right, Arthur, the J-5/Mig-17. There was one warbird circuit collector who bought a J-5 from Iran sometimes in the 1970s and I remember him commenting on it as a robust machine with fine finish.
At any rate, old commie system sucked and the PRC had horrible standards that varied from place to place. New system is better and the point we’re making is China is gaining, not necessarily better. Though in fit and finish, they are. And the Sukhoi officials themselves said so.
GoldenDragonAviation does als include civil and commercial aviation as well as all types of helicopters and in those areas Western Europe is surely ahead of Russia by a big margain.
If we would say military aviation, then I would have to agree with you.
There is no comparision in civil aviation. China switched entirely from its Russian fleet to Boeing and Airbus for a reason.
The Egyptian F-6s were built when? In the 1970s under commie doctrine. No one in his right mind would claim that China coming out from the Cultural Revolution was better than Russia then.
So it was rather irrelevent to the discussion. Why not take China’s aviation industry in 1949 if you do that? You’d have a even better case since they couldn’t build much of anything then 😀
The main point of the thread from Chinese posters’ standpoint is that the Chinese today are attempting to follow a western/commercial style path of development. And quality have improved markedly because of that.
They’re doing this because things did suck to hell almighty under old commie methods. Way back before Hong Kong money and ways of doing things began pouring into China.
OTOH, as bad as those 1970s F-6s were, there are more than a few Migs collectors who say the best Mig-19s are the Chinese ones 🙂
You’ll find the same among some SKS and AK-47 collectors. It also depends on year and which armory the types come from. The same with the 5,000 odd J-6s made.
GoldenDragonA larger version of the above J-10B posted by HK2000 in the Chinese boards.
GoldenDragonThat was indeed a good PS. The guy was brazen enough to describe the “accident.”
Huitong, you think the WZ-10 article is completely unreliable? Not a single kernel of truth at all concerning the 1st flight date, damaged 1st prototype, 6 prototypes and the dimensions?
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