GoldenDragonHH, I heard on the news that India has 23 billionaires (highest in Asia) and China has only 8. I was quite pleasantly surprised to hear this.
Good for you! But nobody in China knows that or cares to know. I bet you that Brazil, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Phillipines, and half dozen other Third World countries have more tycoons than China which is a communist state after all.
But how come India as a whole is poorer than communist China and 60 times poorer than free Chinese societies like Taiwan and Singapore? How come those 23 billionaires can’t contribute to bring India to the level of a communist state?
BTW, the PRC posters think that if they stick their heads in the sand and keep repeating ‘China considers India irrelevant’ a million times, somehow it will become true.
It is true. India is only relevant on the internet. And mainly because of flaming.
Compare the size of US-China, Japan-China, or Taiwan-China trade/tourists/cultural exchanges and India is less than irrelevant, it’s invisible.
How can a $13 billion in trade between China and India out of China’s over $1.1 TRILLION worth of bilateral trade be anything but irrelevance? It’s about 1 percent!
They think they should be compared to extremely advanced nations like Japan, which look down upon chinese and treat them like s*it.
Exactly. If the Chinese people want to be free, it certainly wouldn’t want to be “free” like India where it is poorer than a communist state. China’s population wants to be free like Taiwan and Hong Kong. Why would you go from communism to India’s poverty?
Freedom in most of the world means wealth and better quality of life.
Only in India does freedom leads to squalor and short lives. So yes, Chinese in general would rather look towards their East for progress and “freedom.”
Everybody in the west and in Asia compares China and India, whether the chinese posters here like it or not.
Actually, only Indian ethnics living in the west and the rest of the world compare China and India.
Then again, please tell me where exactly is India’s sphere of influence?
It doesn’t even have controlling influence in South Asia as the militaries of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and Sr Lanka are heavily Chinese.
But stick your heads in the sand and keep mumbling away, if it makes you feel better.
Like insisting that a country like India who is only able to test its indigenous engine in another country and who can’t even export to own neighborhood has an aviation industry comparable to one that exports all over the world?
Try looking at the air forces in the countries to the east, west, north and south of India :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonI’m sick of listening to these righteous conservatives saying that China is bad and oppress its people.
At least in America, the righteous conservatives can say that oppression has made China poor but freedom has made the US rich.
But when Indians, who are far poorer than the “oppressed” Chinese, say these things then that only makes us question how the Indians become so poor even though they are “free.” Freedom has made Indians a third as wealthy as an “oppressed” China.
How come India is so much poorer than Hong Kong or the US when all three are “free” nations? Are Indians simply incapable even in the same system that made US and Hong Kong rich?
Or is India not really as “free” as Indians claim?
Why can’t an Indian answer these obvious questions?
If they can’t answer them then they would be better off not bringing up “dictatorship” every time when mentioning China. ESPECIALLY when a “free” India is so badly off that its babies die at birth twice as often as the “oppressed” Chinese and expect to live eight years less if they do survive birth.
GoldenDragonLet me ask you a question: while it is obvious that the chinese govt. has a clear edge in terms of riches made, where is their edge when it comes to humane values????
Did you hear what I was saying?
China is only 1/20th as wealthy as Taiwan or Hong Kong. The Chinese communist government obviously inhibits China’s full potential. But from wealth figures, it seems it inhibits freedom less than India but more than the US and Hong Kong.
Humane values guarantees wealth in the US and Europe. It does in Hong Kong and Korea.
So why does the economy in India not match up with those other free nations? After all, the richest nations on earth are democracies. Does it mean that Indians are already performing at their best and their best is about 60th of that of a free Chinese society like Taiwan and only one third of that of a communist Chinese society?
Or more likely, India is not as “free” as Indians like to think?
At any rate, all I can extrapolate is that as China advance in the future towards the standard of the free Chinese societies we see in HK, Singapore and Taiwan the gap will only grow.
GoldenDragonOTOH, while china still has a single party that makes all critical decisions for the individual (including how many kids to have), it is only natural that its citizens might find it a wee bit difficult to understand the democratic model that India has followed.
Yes, so why is China richer than India, a “free” nation? Communist countries are almost ALWAYS much poorer than “free” neighbors. Like China compared to Taiwan and East Germany compared to West Germany. Here India was free since 1949 and China was a communist dictatorship. But India is much poorer.
How come Indians are so much poorer than Chinese? That is what I’m trying to understand.
You guys are talking about China being a dictatorship. We know and we know we that the Chinese can better in the future as the country changes. But what can we hope for India? It is already a democracy but it is so poor that it is lapped three times over by a communist state.
In other words, democracy does not guarantee wealth, it does however, safeguard some semblance of human rights for its citizens.
Human rights do guarantee wealth and well being, friend. That is why the US, Europe, Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan are so wealthy. If human rights doesn’t guarantee wealth then half of Europe and half of the free nations of East Asia would be as poor as India.
But that isn’t even remotely the case. India is the worst performing “free” nation in the world. It’s an anomaly.
Every time you talk about the Chinese government running over people with tanks, you are accepting the fact that the Chinese people have done better even though they are burdened by a dictatorship.
So as China progress towards a commonality with free Chinese societies like Hong Kong, India is left even further behind. India is only a third the size of a commie dictatorship.
GoldenDragonThe Astra, the double seater LCA , the MKI ?
Good for you. But why should India be compared with China? The TC-2, the F-CK-1 single seater and the F-CK-1 two-seater program are already in production.
The PL-11 had been carried for years on J-8IIs. The double-seater J-10 flies and is production. There are over 100 J-11s. There first MKI was assembled only months ago.
So why compared these new Indian programs that has almost no physical impact on the IAF with the PL-11, PL-12, J-10B and the J-11 that are in PLAAF regular units.
There is no reason for China and India to be compared. It would make far more for China to be compared with its neighbors to the east.
Unfortunately or fortunately in India , you cannot increase the defence budget in India easily, the government/people/me have concerns other than defence spending.
For an economy that is only two and a half times the size of China’s, India’s defense budget is only 30 percent size of China’s $20 billion to 35 billion.
In 2005, India imported more arms than China. But China consumed 10 times more refrigerators and air conditioners. That pretty much tells you who is putting more emphasis on arms.
Long term threats ? We’ll have to wait and see, but I can already see who that will be (look for one proliferating missiles to one and all) 🙂
India has no long-term threats. Pakistan is strictly in defensive mode and so is the rest of South Asia. China ignores India and is focused almost exclusively in its east.
For all it’s faults no one in India would want to live in a regime where people are run over by tanks or forced to move at a moments notice in the name of advancement.
Exactly. It behooves me to understand how India could end up being only a third as rich as a country held back by such a government.
What happens if China no longer runs over its people with tanks and evolves into a giant Hong Kong? It is already three times larger economically.
The gap will grow ever wider.
GoldenDragonI don’t think aviaton industry has anything to do with free country or not, please no need to mention it here.
Thanks.
Perhaps.
But the amount of resources that goes into creating an aviation industry is important. Free societies create wealth at a tremendous pace. We know that Western-style free-market nations tend to be extremely rich. It doesn’t matter if they are in East Asia or Western Europe. We also know that communism tend to make countries extremely poor compared to its neighbors whether in North Korea or Eastern Europe.
China has expanded economically (and militarily as a side effect) because of the freedoms put into place since Deng Xiaopeng in the 1980s but it still trails other East Asian states like Korea and Japan as well as other Chinese societies. There is no doubt about this.
China itself sees that change must take place which is why there is a convergence among Chinese, especially urbanites, towards Hong Kong and Taiwan standards. They are beginning to watch the same TV shows, listen to the same music and use the same business practices in Hong Kong, Shanghai or Taipei.
India is economically almost three times smaller than China inspite of being a democratic and free country. China could aspire to be like Hong Kong and Taiwan as a model and widen it great lead even further. There is NOTHING that India could change to advance beyond the system it has now since democracy is the optimal system (as evidenced by the immense wealth of Europe and the US.)
India was accorded a great advantage for 50 years by being a “free” nation while China was held back by communism and its disasters like the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward. But that advantage left India only one third as wealthy as China. Maybe that is the best India could do with the optimal system.
On the other hand, once China reaches the level of other Chinese societies, the gulf between the two will widen into an insurmountable chasm (if it is not so already) and so will the military budget, as Flogger pointed out.
GoldenDragonJust found at the CDF (posted by xinhui !) … a profile of the EC-175 alias “Z-15” in Chinese Army and Naval Aviation schemes … !!
Besides that there are some ongoing rumours about another helicopter project in the 10 t class …. does anyone have some more information on that ??
Cheers, Deino 😀
Deino, your 10-ton helo might end up to be based on the Super Puma. The way things are looking, Eurocopter is licensing every weight class to China.
Picture: First images of new Eurocopter / AVIC II EC175 Chinese co-production
EADS subsidiary Eurocopter has issued the first image (an artist’s impression of which is pictured below) of the EC175 6t-class helicopter, which it is co-producing with China’s AVIC II as part of a €600 million ($720 million) deal.
The EC175 is designed to fill a niche in Eurocopter’s civil helicopter portfolio between the 5t Dauphin and the 10t Super Puma.
[url=””http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/03/10/Navigation/177/205375/P…]
GoldenDragonFlogger, for all his meanderings, does have a point about wealth and resources. The wide gap in resource was something we talked about before and is evident in every comparison between the two nations.
The PRC as a communist state is expected to do less well than the free Chinese societies like Taiwan and Hong Kong (both of which are around 20-30 times Chinese per capita income in real dollars terms.)
But as a free country India not only trails free Asian societies like Hong Kong and Singapore but it is trailing that of a horribly inefficient communist China. (Any “free” nation that can end up trailing an @ss-backwards commie state should itself be a case study in human incompetence and futility.)
This means that as we go forward, the disparity in wealth that Flogger is pointing out can only widen even more as China becomes more like Hong Kong and Taiwan (which is the overwhelming trend in China today from culture to business practices.)
GoldenDragonDont’ we just read Pakistan is building an assembly line importing from foreign that it is even more advance than Chendu’s?
Now they are offering this contract to China, isn’t it contradicting?
A little bit contradicting. But infrastructure could mean the more mundane items such as the lifts and winches and not the machine tools (which, BTW, China itself tends to buy from Japan and Germany.)
GoldenDragonStrevitel, you haven’t changed since you were banned from CDF. You’ve absolutely no idea what you are talking about and yet you pretend that you know.
Try traveling to China (or Taiwan for that matter.) India is never mentioned in media or among the people. It is a complete non-entity.
Korea, Japan and, of course, the United States dominate everyday Chinese discourse in culture, politics and business.
So stop pretending like you know anything about whom the Chinese see as their rivals. The Chinese focus is so entirely fixated to their east that it is unlikely that most Chinese even know India has nukes or care if they did.
This Chinese-Indian rivalry is an imaginary concept given life only on the internet.
Look at the miniscule contacts between the two: China had a $1.1 trillion dollar in total trade last year and only $13 billion was with India (or barely 1 percent.) There were 12 million Chinese tourists visiting the rest of Asia in 2005 (31 million if we include Hong Kong as a separate entity) and almost none of them went to India.
There is no interaction, no connection and no sense in making this comparison.
GoldenDragonDesigning an aircraft and manufacturing them en masse are two different things.
Belgium, Australia, Taiwan and any number of small developed states in Europe and East Asia can “designed” an aircraft.
But very few can build them in numbers because not only are the planes massively complex but the infrastructure needed to manufacture those designs is even more massively expensive and complex.
GoldenDragonEconomically and technologically speaking China is little bit ahead in the race.
What race? Who is in this imaginary race?
The only race China is in is the one with the other Chinese societies like Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore. The mainland Chinese see themselves far behind other people in their neighborhood, not ahead of anyone. That is why there is such a drive to grow in China. India is never mentioned in the Far East.
Both aircraft are their national attempts to achieve a domestic build and design national light weight fighter.
Korea is building and flying new lightweight fighter. It is FAR more relevant to discuss the possibilty that South Korea will be a bigger threat to low-price Chinese a/c sales in the future. The Chinese have already seen the Korean carmakers take a chunk from the Japanese in that industry.
Look at China’s exports in total and China’s exports in aircraft. Neither one warrants ANY discussion with India. India doesn’t even compete in the same industries. China exports manufactured goods, including ships and aircraft. India exports tech labor and services.
Korea on the other hand exports manufactured goods such as ships (ahead of Japan and China) and is starting to export aircraft.
GoldenDragonThis is in regards to the new JF-17 assembly line in Pakistan.
http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=136942
JF-17 (thunder) Aircraft infrastructure development contract awarded to a Chinese company
Friday March 10, 2006 (2311 PST)
ISLAMABAD, March 11(Online): The contract of infrastructure development of JF-17 (Thunder) aircraft has been awarded to M/S China State Construction Engineering Corporation.
In this regard, a contract signing ceremony was held at Air Headquarters on Friday. The contract has been awarded to M/S China State Construction Engineering Corporation, which is one of the leading Chinese construction companies. According to the co-development plan the contract was awarded by CATIC to CSCEC in the presence of the representatives from Aircraft Manufacturing Factory Kamra. The ceremony was attended by Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, Chief of the Air Staff (designate), Mr Mao Siwei Acting Chinese Ambassador, Air Marshal Aurangzeb Khan, Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Board Kamra, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif, Chief Project Director JF-17, Senior Colonel Li Mengyan Defence Attaché China and several other senior officials of both the sides.
GoldenDragonThe J7W1 Shinden. One of Japan’s X-weapons at the end of the war. Has some pretty impressibe stats too.
Basically an early canard-delta 😀
There was a plan for a J7W2 version that would have employed a turbojet instead of the massive prop engine.
GoldenDragonI was the project team lead engineer at Garrett (now Honeywell) for the growth engine. Two TFE1042 IPEs would have provided a combined thrust in excess of 24,000 pounts. This was achieved by more than just a tweak to the engine.
The growth engine never went beyond the proposal stage. ROCAF lost interest once they got permission to buy F-16s. There have been component improvements implemented on the 1042 over the years, but the engine performance is essentially the same. Nothing quite so dramatic as a >25% increase in thrust that the IPE would have provided.
Mark
Thanks VERY MUCH for sharing, Mark. Vortex wants a detailed graph because we long suspected that he is an Asian-American spy.
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