GoldenDragonFrom Pakistani television.
Musharraf was shown the J-10 and in Chengdu, at least in poster form. These are the background images during a conference at CAC that the leader of Pakistan attended.
Amazing that a plane whose existence is officially denied by the Chinese government is out in plane sight (pun intended) to honor the President of Pakistan.
And yes, that plane that Musharraf sat in is the 04 prototype of the FC-1.
GoldenDragonnot true….A-5, F-6, F-7P/PG are chinese jets which all carry US weapons…sidewinders, snake-eye series iron bombz, cluster bombz
True. The AIM-9 had been on PAF Chinese aircraft since the venerable F-6. That’s why I put in the (!!!).
Perhaps Jane’s could have rephrased it better by saying the FC-1 was the first Chinese plane to integrate American weaponry from the start (design phase.)
Though, the F-7PG most likely had US weapons in mind with the PAF ordered it.
One of the most interesting piece of news last year was the Chinese offer of the FD-60 bvr weapon “specifically” for US aircraft of Pakistan and Iran. In order for a semi-active radar homer to be incorporated, the Chinese must work with the American radars of those US aircraft. There is no way of getting around that with a missile that depends on the radar painting the target!
GoldenDragonI understand that one small asian (I believe it was Bangladesh) country recently sighned a deal for a new F-7 variant, Nigeria did the same not so long ago. It goes without saying that the F-7 is still a viable fighter against airforces still operating Mig-21’s and 23’s but what level has the F-7 reached.
The F-7 is viable because it’s tailored to a niche market. For a developing country, aircraft in general provide much less bang for the buck than weapons for ground forces. Fighters for countries like Bangladesh and Nigeria is more for air space patrol and interception during peacetime than a full scale war where the army would be the main instrument of force.
Having a cheap supersonic aircraft like the F-7 allows for more numbers and more coverage of air space. People don’t realize how often air space is violated. It happens even in Europe. Austria, for example, is repeatedly violated by US aircraft taking a shortcuts. The RAF does the same over Ireland.
There is a new J-7 variant called the J-7G, with the double delta wing, and two peice windshield, it has been seen carrying 2 PL-9Cs and reports say that it can carry 4 of said missiles.
The G is the PLAAF version of the PAF-inspired PG variant. Generally, F-7s carry two of the lighter two PL-5s and two of the heavier PL-8/9.
If I remember correctly there were two radars proposed for this variant, the KLJ-6E and the SY-80, the latter appears to be getting a lot of publicity (showing up at various exhibitions), this may be a hint that this is the radar used. Either way this development makes the J-7 a formidable low cost fighter, for those facing a limited air threat.
Are the new Nigerian and Bangladeshi aircraft to be equiped upto J-7G standards?
It is quite possible that the Nigerian and Bangladeshi F-7s might end up with the SY-80 since it is not certain they would have the same arrangement with Grifo of Italy that supplied the radar set for the PG.
Which radar does the J-7G use?
According to most sources, the J-7G uses the KLJ-6.
GoldenDragonI admire your courage and resilent GD. Hope this thread will not end up like the others. 😀 No more flame. :rolleyes:
Why, thank you. Aircraft is just a fun subject.
This would be a much sadder place if people truly interested in airplanes are driven away from posting pictures and discussing a favorite past-time just because some people with misplaced priorities take it too seriously 😀
GoldenDragonA small country with a strict budget can bring together a whole air force by buying from a fellow third world member of the UNSC who offers not only robust aircraft at an affordable price but weapons with remarkably few strings attached.
From the shopping list:
Primary trainer: CJ6A
Basic jet trainer: K-8
Advance jet trainer: FT-7
Jet Fighter: F-7PG (and related variants)
High speed Interceptor w/BVR: F-8IIM
Liason craft: Y-12
Light transport: MA-60
Medium transport: Y-8
Strike aircraft w/ AShM (bound to get a 3rd world country in trouble with the US though): JH-7A
Bomber: H-6 (various variants)
GoldenDragonNo, it was initially denied in order to not escalate anything, at the time China had no active BVR AAM. Then China bought the Su-30MKK and got the R-77, so the AIM-120 sale was approved. The idea was to sell weapons that retain a degree of parity on both sides, not to give the island of Formosa a distinct advantage.
No, the sale was approved. The missiles themselves were not “released” to Taiwan. To many Chinese, it made absolutely no sense since the pot was already stirred by selling the AMRAAMs in the first place.
Therefore the US kept the missiles away from the Taiwanese for another reason. At least that is how the reasoning goes.
So yeah, Sean, everyone knew the official answer. But that answer made as little sense just as the explanation of the CIA goofing up the Belgrade Embassy bombing.
GoldenDragonI agree with tphuang.
The elite production line is with the J-10 and the crappy lines are with the J-7/F-7MG and FC-1.
There is no such thing as an “elite” line. Lines are put into production as they become available. Tphuang is right in that J-7 lines are ahead of the SAC lines even though the premiere fighter line has ALWAYS been Shenyang not Chengdu.
The CAC lines were simply improved before the SAC ones because Shenyang was first tasked with the J-8II and then the J-11 both more important projects than the J-7. A live production line doesn’t usually have new machine tools put into place while it is in the midst of a production run.
The PAC JF-17 line WILL be newer than even the Chengdu ones because it will be put into place in a brand new state. The experience level of the work crew will be different.
BTW, Chengdu owes its current position to Pakistan because while SAC was tasked with government directives and the J-11 Russian project, CAC was allowed to export and interact with the PAF’s American-trained personnel.
Read the story that was posted last in the first Chinese news and pictures thread. The lead test pilot of the FC-1 (and widely acknowkledged as the lead test pilot of the J-10) was a former J-7 instructor for the PAF. He flew the F-16 and said it was the best man-machine interface around. That and other experience with the PAF helped change the Chinese aviation industry from a Soviet-based structure to a more Western one.
GoldenDragonThere were ads in local newspaper looking to recruit people for the project…
First one I saw was in mid of last year…
Nice. There is nothing more real than the hiring of people and the payment of salaries.
As far as the PAF involvement in the FC-1 project, it is no small thing. Again for the Dec. issues of Jane’s Defense Weekly, the Pakistani personnel was heavily involved at Chengdu:
1. “Pakistani test pilots are flying with the Chinese test team, with FCS development as a major focus,”
2. “the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plans to qualify the JF-17 with all current PAF weapons. This increases the possibility that the FC-1/JF-17 will become the first Chinese aircraft to be integrated with US weapons.” (!!!)
3. Half of the initial production contract for 16 aircraft is going to Pakistan. “These aircraft will be used for further test and development flying.” Basically, the PAF will be doing half the testflying of the initial production machines.
4. “The PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex) is establishing its own facility to build the aircraft and has been importing specialist machine tools from suppliers in Sweden, and elsewhere, to set up a better production line than the one already established at Chengdu. Work on the first PAC aircraft is expected to begin in 2006.”
Anyone interested in these items can look it up in the Dec. 2005 issues of JDW.
GoldenDragonA December, 2005 of Jane’s Defense Weekly said Pakistan is importing tooling equipment from Europe to set up their FC-1 production line.
That Jane’s article said that the Pakistani line would be newer and more advance than the ones allotted to the FC-1 in the Chengdu. Also there are already contract tenders for employees at the new line.
There is little doubt that FC-1 was planned from day one for the Pakistani aircraft industry. All this talk about lack of engine and radar and what not and the hard truth of the matter is that a new factory for the JF-17 is already being put into place in Pakistan.
GoldenDragonWith the gowing threat that the PLAAF
Not really. The average Taiwanese doesn’t really see China as a threat. Otherwise, the US wouldn’t be pushing them all the time to buy more weapons.
On the other hand, lots of Chinese are not only interested in the FCK-1 but proud of it too.
The fact is most of us don’t think Taiwanese and Chinese weapons will ever be used on Chinese on either side of the Strait. Not when there are like 1.5 million Taiwanese living at any given time in China.
Actually, there are lots of Chinese posters in the Chinese forum hoping for the Taiwanese to get some really cool stuff like Aegis or the F-22 so China could be passed information on them.
It is thought that US had always refused to fully release the AMRAAM to the Taiwan military because of this sense that it will go to China soon after release to Taiwanese hands.
GoldenDragonThe laboratory for the FC-1’s cockpit/pilot-machine interface designers. Note the large screen for the simulator shown above.
GoldenDragonThe flight simulator used to configure and test the FC-1 cockpit layout.
GoldenDragonI doubt anyone would dispute that the UK is one of the aviation majors, countries that can build aircraft from end to end. If trans-national shipments were suddenly stopped today, there are really just five countries that can complete an aircraft. And those five are the same five on the UN Security Council. Also the same five with nuclear submarines.
All the second tier aviation industries need some critical piece (usually the engine) from somewhere else.
Of course, if push comes to shove, countries like Germany and Japan can build all home-made parts but their infrastructure is not set up for it. But the P5 countries like the US, Russia, France, China and UK had built literally tens of thousands of aircraft frames and aero-engines. There are no other state that can do this.
GoldenDragonI think its unfair to bring in the Swedish industry and compare it to their Chinese equivelent simply because they have different markets.
It is unfair and I didn’t bring Sweden up, it was brought up earlier. Sweden is a first world state with full access to the US and European technology base, including engines, AAMs and radars — the whole works. China is under Western embargo. Yet China could still sell planes.
Nigeria, Iran and Zimbabwe are unlikely to purchase the Gripen either politically or on economical grounds.. but likewise its unlikely Chinese aircraft could compete in areas where the Gripens have fought in, such as Czech Republic, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. Although if the Erieye thing for Pakistan proves true, it might change that.
Exactly, China had a niche market in aviation and that market has been around since the 1960s. No one is claiming anything else.
GoldenDragonLovely, got nothing to do with what was said though. Musashi wasn’t talking about talking about anyone doing a visual inspection of a person and then racially classifying them.
:rolleyes: Musashi was talking about a make-believe statement that Taiwanese passports holders are somehow “treated” better than Chinese ones. It’s nothing but some silly opinion based on his belief that people can recognize the difference.
Since Taiwan is officially recognized only by 23 nations then how does that mean Taiwanese passport holders are treated better if not by Musashi assumption that there is a non-official better treatment of Taiwanese based on visual inspection?
truely off on a tangent that has bug*er all to do with aircraft carriers.
Daniel
Absolutely true. Musashi’s opinion that Taiwanese are somehow treated better than Chinese has ****** to do with Chinese carriers at all.
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