GoldenDragonOh I am sure you will get some more ukranaians to give you insights to maintain the AL-31FN,
They most probably do since China has hundreds of Flankers. A scale of operations that only Ukrainians and Russians have had with the Su-27 series.
Indians have nothing to do with maintainance of that type of engines, they do know quite a bit about the F and FP right now they have OEM taking care of them…
:rolleyes: After taking care of only 19 Su-30Ks and in only a year of operating a 20 odd MKIs. It’s like the kid who bought a new car and had driven it for three weeks trying to tell company operating a fleet of cars how he knows maintenance better.
Puhlease :rolleyes:
when the FP becomes stable then Indians will take care of it…but I dont think the topic of Indian vs CHinese Al-31 was ever raised by me but somehow you like to draw the flanker fleet comparison (possible to ground and cannibalize BOTH fleets again)
I never said India had to cannibalize anything. (If you cannibalizing your little fleet of MKIs after one year of service, it would be pretty pathetic.) I simply said India is no-where near China in scale of operations and your bragging of the IAF being of a higher level is nothing more than a new — and very limited — user still infatuated with his new toys.
So in the future WHEN and IF Salyut stops sending the -FN and more J-10 are actually powered by a “just certified” engine does it make sense to talk about this issue.
Sure. It would make sense to talk about the WS-10A in a new thread called “The WS-10A in the J-10” then.
But this thread is simply about the WS-10A being tested and certified.
Why does it make you so angry and envious that you’re trying to stop us from discussing a newly certified engine, George?
You have a whole thread on the Kaveri and I haven’t bothered saying it shouldn’t be discussed until it is flying. Who cares? If people are interested in the WS-10A and Kaveri they can go to the appropriate threads.
Be more of an aviation fan instead of internet warrior who thinks he has to further his nation cause by insulting Chinese people as “drones.”
GoldenDragonWhy FC-1 AND J-10? Why not just have one or the other?
One is less expensive than the other. And most importantly, one is intended for export and is well-publicized from day one while the other is for internal use that it isn’t even acknowledged to exist today.
So to the maker of both CAC (Chengdu Aircraft Corp), since it can’t sell the J-10, the FC-1 becomes a major project as a follow-on to the J-7 as a product for world’s market.
GoldenDragonGoldenDragon, you shouldn’t really deliberately insult the Indians if you feel one of them happened to be obssessed. There are a lot of reasonable Indians on AFM.
I don’t think I’ve insulted any normal Indians. The ones who are in this thread are most definitely full of envy and anger since they start off with terms like “drones.”
They are so envious that they are angry over a thread that is simply labelled “Chinese exports.” I made no attempt to say that Chinese aircraft is of “great” quality since it was acknowledged in the first post that the world market is dominated by the West and Russia.
I also said the price is cheap and affordable so no one is pretending that Chinese aircraft is expensive and top of the line. (I can’t believe we have to bend over backwards to denigrate Chinese products so Indian nationalists won’t feel so jealous :rolleyes:)
Yet, we get all these accusatory insults about “propaganda” because of jealousy and envy and misplaced national pride.
China’ helicopter industry is not necessarily that far behind.
I don’t think it is behind at all. Because there is nothing to show that the Indian helo industry has even sold a single craft. China has. The Dhruv is one product compared to a wide range of Chinese ones (again, Z-8, Z-9, Z-10, Z-11, HN425, the CMH, etc.)
Just that you know, the recent Z-8, Z-9 and Z-11 are all domestic designs, that’s why they are allowed to be exported.
It is obvious that China owns the rights if they could export it. But if they think they are ahead then good for them. I politely disagree. We shouldn’t be talking about India anyways. It simply doesn’t have much of aviation industry. It can’t even sell in own neighborhood.
As for J-10 and FC-1, the engine issue will be sorted out soon. I don’t for a minute think that China will have any export issues with them. If K-8, something that uses an engine that China can’t even get, can be exported as much as it does, I don’t see a problem with J-10 and FC-1.
China had always been able to export in spite foreign embargoes. Something that Sweden and Brazil never had to worry about. The reason that China could export under this circumstance is that aircraft like the J-6, J-7 and Q-5 are made entirely in China.
The K-8 is exported to Egypt, Burma, Sir Lanka, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Namibia, etc. even though its original engine was under embargo. It would have been a greater success if there wasn’t an embargo.
Are you going to belittle Sweden, just because Gripen uses American engine? Either way, WS-10 J-10s and WS-13 FC-1 will be available in time for exports.
China will always be able to export because:
1) it has a tradition of exporting aircraft, even during embargoes and self-inflicted chaos like the Cultural Revolution; so a brand tradition is created,
2) it has major political weight, especially in South Asia, and Africa where Chinese aircraft and other arms are sought after by local states to cement ties with China,
3) its products are cheap and affordable so that the vast majority of the developing world could afford them.
Now, the JH-7 and J-8II might not have exported but that is because the J-7 is still on the sales list. Once the FC-1 comes out, it will replace the J-7 and is pretty much guaranteed a traditional list of buyers. The same with the L-15 once it replaces the K-8.
But the fact remains, China has a very wide range of aircraft for sales. Who said the JH-7A won’t sold in the future? Or the F-8II for that matter? It all comes down to price and needs. But as long as it is available, there is a chance that it might be bought.
GoldenDragonIndia is the most advanced power in Helicopter technology in the third world now, it is an exporting nation in the helicopter field and has a domestic helicopter the Dhruv.
Good for them. But China had already exported the Z-9. I never heard of an Indian helicopter being exported. In fact, even Nepal had looked at the Z-9.
At any rate, I can’t see the same range of projects on their end but if they are then good for them.
China`s great lead over Brazil in the field of jet military aircraft is because Embraer is a profit based company not a Government supported and financed company like Xian, Shengyang or Chengdu which supply the PLAAF.
No doubt that if Dassault decides to provide Embraer with military technology, it could. Like I said, Embraer is a First World organization. But Brazil supports Embraer completely now. The problem is with the Europeans and whether they are willing to give up the required technology.
China`s military industry is very similar to Embraer`s because are a mosaic of different suppliers from different countries under the leadership of Chinese or Brazilian bureaux of design[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Chinese industry is very different from Embraer because China has very few outside suppliers because of the embargo. The main suppliers are the Russians with the Europeans playing a role in helos.
The reason it is able to export a fairly good number of military jets is those are made in China (airframe, engine and the basic radar and avionics suites.)
GoldenDragonBut most countries in the world recognise someone with a Taiwanese passport and usually treat them more favourably than someone from the PRC.
I would say that is hearsay or just wishful thinking on your part. From my experience, most non-Asians wouldn’t know where Taiwan actually is. Many couldn’t even tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese even if you show them the passports, let alone a Chinese from Taiwanese.
A Chinese-American, Vincent Chin, was murdered in Detroit because two white auto workers, who kept calling him a “Jap”, thought he a Japanese who took their jobs. Those two didn’t really listen when he tried to explain he was a Chinese not a “jap.”
GoldenDragonWhat it is interesting to see is that China sells fighter aircraft while Brazil sells AEW, utility aircraft, trainers and patrol aircraft.
Actually, China sells the whole range except for AEW. It had been most successful with light fighters, light transports and trainers.
The F-7 are mentioned but the K-8 and Y-12 have done just as well. In years, past, the Q-5 have done pretty well.
India has a Helicopter industry that China or Brazil lack.
Extremely doubtful. China’s has the world’s largest numbers of ongoing helicopter projects, most of which are based on European designs (Z-8, Z-9, Z-10, Z-11, HC-120, CMH, etc, not to mention the incorporation of Russian types like the Ka-28 and Mi-17.)
GoldenDragonI think this thread is a good idea but tittle is not very fortunate…can we choose it for “second rank aircraft industries or something similar”…It is a question of production not economical power.
Correct. Change the title so we stop the “First/Third world” talk and you can have a good discussion on the second tier industries.
Germany and Japan are second tier industries only because they were under restraints from WWII. South Korea and Taiwan are top-notched industries and Taiwan could have (and probably should have) developed the leading military aviation sector in Asia. The TC-II ARH MRAAM is no mean feat.
But obviously, the top second tier industries, if we discount Sweden, are Ukraine, Italy and Spain with Brazil being tops in the civilian sector.
BTW, people tend to overlook CASA which had several major successes in the light transports area with the C212 and C235.
GoldenDragonGolden Dragon
You need to re-check what third world nations sell.
Brazil has been a supplier of military aircraft to Africa, Middle East and latin america since the 1970s.
Among the Aircraft that have been suplied are EMB-110, EMB-120, several air forces VIP ERJ-145/135, several AEW ERJ-145/R-99 and incredible to believe the EMBRAER Tucano has been a top seller even France and England have taken orders for them.
While Brazil has not sold MiG-21 or MiG-19 type aircraft like China it has taken several niches as supplier of utility aircraft and primary trainers and until very recently AEW and AWACS platforms.
technologically speaking the R-99 are quit advanced aircraft and secveral nations among India have bought the platform at least in the VIP military transport guise.
I actually wrote in another thread that Brazil has the most advance aircraft facilities in the third world because of Embraer and it’s working relation with Europe. It’s a First World company that happens to have plants in the Third World, and Brazil is among the richer third world countries to begin with.
But Embraer doesn’t challenge what I said. The world’s military market is dominated by the US, Europe and Russia and China is one of the few alternatives. Embraer is, for all intent and purposes, an extension of the Western aviation industry and its technology (mainly France and Europe.)
GoldenDragonHow can I bash a country that’s not even able to export a fixed wing to its own neighborhood? Merely stating that it has no ability to export because of its weak aircraft industry is not a bash.
Stop being so paranoid. You are here insulting me and calling Chinese people “drones” and you are paranoid about us bashing India.
:rolleyes:
Great reviews? There’s no reviews repository like “Rotten Tomatoes” for aircraft like there are for movies. So it is obvious that envy has made you irrational.
But let’s see: Egypt, Pakistan, Burma, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Peru, Fiji, Zambia, Tanzania, Iran have all given the thumbs up on Chinese aircraft. Now isn’t that a thumbs up from a good dozen countries?
And when have we argued at Chinese quality is “great?” We already said it’s cheap and affordable and bought by third world nations.
GoldenDragonAnd India has respected all the agreements which it entered into
Good for you. You can start a thread on India’s morals and ethics in the general discussion forum. Stop being so jealous and insecure and let us get back into the subject here which Chinese exports.
There are many threads in these forum, there is no reason for you and your whole clan to be here calling us names.
Ahh forget India dude, this is a Chinese thread, this will only give them an excuse for furthur India bashing
You pretty much bashed yourselves with this naked and silly aggression borne of envy.
GoldenDragon:rolleyes:
I’ve never seen more envious people in my life. So jealous that they are “asking questions” already answered.
:rolleyes:
Price:
“SN SECURITY WATCH (Friday, 24 February: 13.55 CET) – Bangladesh has signed a US$93.6 million deal with China to procure 16 fighter jets in a bid to modernize the country’s air force, news agencies reported.”
Quality:
“In a world dominated by US, Russian and European military aircraft, China is the only major non-Western (Russia being an European nation first and foremost) supplier of aircraft.
It supplies the Developing world and especially South Asia where it is accepted as the leading political and military entity in the region.
“
Cheap price and developing world quality. This was stated in the first post.
Instead we have all these silly accusations of “propaganda” like a Chinese poster is a country and all these insults about “drones” :rolleyes:
Now that you have your answer, you could stop being so jealous so we can go back to Chinese aircaft exports for people who actually like the subject.
GoldenDragonFirst off India does not export much nor does it boost of exporting on this forum, none of us start such propaganda threads.
India has no exports because it doesn’t have much of an aircraft industry.
Now what is a “propaganda” thread on an aircraft forum full of aviation enthusiasts? How does a thread on an internet forum become a propaganda thread?
Are you so much a nationalist driven by envy that you see any Chinese related thread as “propaganda”? :rolleyes:
If people like Chinese aircraft, then they are creating “propaganda” simply by posting Chinese aviation threads? What kind of retarded thinking is that?
Grow up and enjoy this forum as an aviation fan instead of some idiotic nationalist warrior who needs to treat Chinese threads as some kind of “propaganda” that you need to attack for your national “honor.”
GoldenDragonI don’t think India, with its handful of SU-30s, can give much insight on AL-31 maintenance. And certainly nothing on an F-110 class engine meant to power the J-11B and the J-10.
Anyone with the least sense could see that because the J-10 and the J-11 production lines are already up and running and the WS-10A is just certified, that they would need to continue importing the AL-31 or else the air frames would pile up.
This is especially true in the case of the J-10 where the WS-10A (which was designed and tested on a J-11) would need to be re-engineered.
Again, the size of the Chinese orders from Salyut is a reflection of the Chinese production lines and their ability to churn out aircraft in large numbers. There could be hundreds of J-10 airframes built before a WS-10A variant is ready for it.
GoldenDragonTo be fair, repeat business isn’t necessarily a foolproof gauge of product quality. If, for political reasons, you only have one source available to you, then you’re going to be stuck with it, regardless of quality.
It’s a measure of cost/value. If quality is the only criteria then there would be no planes bought in this world except for the F-22.
No one is even making the point that Chinese exports are of “better” quality vis-a-vis anyone. Again, the US, Europe and Russia dominate the world’s market and China has the largest niche after those nations. Why the aggression from a people who doesn’t even export and is not even competing with China in any of those markets.
Beyond that, George, why don’t you share with us your basis for obviously believing that the aforementioned Chinese products are of substandard quality?
You could read his basis from the terms he uses. Chinese people are inhuman “drones” under “dictators” so their products are substandard :rolleyes:
At the same time, he refuses to see that in aircraft (as well as everything else) China exports infinitely more than India. He could ignore this obvious fact by simply assuming a silly “superiority” attitude that India is a “free” but China is not :rolleyes:
Did HAL build the MiG-21s that keep having problems?
Who cares? It’s an irrelevant organization in the world’s market and in fact has no weight even in South Asia, it’s own neighborhood. No one is out to bash India. Whatever happens to India’s MiG-21s is India’s concern.
GoldenDragonNowadays, PRC sales success making an inroad to the third world market
is quite notable. But appears to be largely limited to many a developing
countires where getting equipped with much more sophiscated weaponry is virtually not possible due to a given limited burgetary constraint.
It’s not really nowadays 😀
And that is also one of the reasons for this (and the previous thread.) The history of Chinese military aircraft exports spans 40 years with F-6s and H-5s to Pakistan, Romania, Albania, Tanzania and Vietnam (and many more) in the 1960s.
This continued through the 1980s with F-7IIs and Q-5s to Iran, Iraq, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
Through the 1990s with the K-8s, Y-12s and Y-8s to Egypt, Peru, Fiji, Burma, etc.
And continuing that tradition in the new millenium with the F-7PGs, MA-60s, Z-9s and a whole slew of new products on the way (FC-1, L-15, FTC2000.)
China had always supplied the 3rd world. But then again, there are ultimately only 5 independent suppliers in the world: the US, France, UK, Russia and China. These are the countries that can build a plane end to end with all home-manufactured components.
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