GoldenDragonEh? :confused:
There is no reason to play coy, bro. Chacko already knows that you’re one of us.
GoldenDragonThe present lineup
Chengdu J-7G/PG: the PAF-influenced version of the venerable J-7 series. Sales fairly good with orders from Bangladesh and Nigeria (as well as the PLAAF itself – J-7G.) Long-tern prospects are limited by the FC-1.
Chengdu FC-1/JF-17: much discussed project involving Pakistan. The most openly reported Chinese aviation product in memory, therefore it had generated the most interest with reported inquiries and visits from Bangladesh, Iran and Egypt during prototyping. Reporting also showed the warts of the project on the engine and avionics issues which will affect buyers confidence.
Hongdu K-8: the best selling Chinese aircraft currently with 120 sold to Egypt as the K-8E. Sri Lanka, Burma, Zimbabwe and Namibia among other customers. An advance version with glass cockpit was supposedly flight-tested late last year.
Hongdu L-15: the followon to the K-8. Well-publicized, could be another breakthrough hit for Hongdu. Performance-wise, according to specs anyways, it is a superlative trainer.
Guizhou FTC2000: supersonic trainer based on the JJ-7. A reworked nose and cheek intakes allow for a larger radar and better pilot view. Double delta wings of the J-7E/G series for better maneuverability. Still, mainly a J-7. Sales, therefore, is dependent on countries needing an austere trainer for Mig-21s and J-7s.
Harbin Y-12: Light utility plane sold both to military and civilian. Operators in over 20 countries from Kenya to Peru to Fiji. It is also being sold in Canada with PW engines as a replacement for the Twin Otter.
Harbin Z-9: localized version of Eurocopter’s Dauphin. Exports sales of the Z-9A variant were made to Malawi and Mauritania.
Shenyang F-8IIM: export version of the J-8II. No sales and will probably remain that way for this overly heavy interceptor.
Shaanxi Y-8: medium transport based on the An-12 Cub. Sold to Iran, Sri Lanka and Burma.
Xi’an FBC-1/FB-7: export name of the JH-7/JH-7A. No sales but the WS-9 Qinling engine could give this design a new life. Overweight like the F-8II but it does have range and is the key platform firing China’s latest AShMs.
Xian Y-7/MA-60: light transport based on the An-24. Sold in civilian form to Laos and Zimbabwe.
GoldenDragonPresenting the ninth thread in an ever-increasing series on Chinese military aviation developments.
BTW, thanks brother Sean.
It seems some have apparently caught on to the well-kept secret that O’Brien is one of the baijiaxing (the old 100 surnames of the Han Chinese.)
GoldenDragonFlight simulator for the FB-7 (export name for the JH-7)
GoldenDragonAn item from last month.
http://english.people.com.cn/200601/12/eng20060112_234830.html
Sales rise rapidly for China Aviation Industry Corp II
China Aviation Industry Corp II (AVIC II), parent of the Hong Kong-listed mini-car and helicopter maker AviChina Industry & Technology Co Ltd, said yesterday its 2005 sales income rose 10.8 per cent year-on-year.
…
AVIC II is the country’s only mass producer of helicopters and small aircraft or regional jets.
The company delivered 144 helicopters and small aircraft to its customers last year, Liang said.
GoldenDragon[COLOR=Red]
Your racist post about “skin color” has been archived. That’s all that needs to be said. The people who need to see it, can see it. No point leaving such comments for public view, which will show the forum in the wrong light. Your previous double id under which you also made the choiciest posts, has also been noted.
One, I have no “double id” besides the BearCat login I had years ago and which I have pointed out.
Name which one it is that you are implying or is it another of your pathetic attempt at abusing your position to win some nationalistic argument with a Chinese person :rolleyes:
My “racist” post that you selectively edited out so you can imply racism was where I said the “Chinese officials didn’t use skin color as an automatic assumption that Indians are less well-trained.”
Which is exactly what the Indians here who are implying about the Chinese.
Nice try at flamebait by trying to compare Vietnamese and Indians.
You brought up the Vietnamese, not I. The Vietnamese are respected in Asia as warriors. Your kind are highly respected internet warriors I’m sure.
Again, don’t imply accusations about double id or racist posts. Post them in the open. It’s pathetic that you need to abuse your position to win an argument.
And have fun trying to get me banned, I rarely come here anymore and it would give you and your kind a great “victory” of sorts, Harry :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonGD, your racist post has been deleted but I will reply to certain comments,
There was absolutely nothing racist about that post. You deleted it because of your own bias and your own inability to reply to the obvious.
Why would a country create these elaborate and successful systems to win Olympic gold but wouldn’t do the same for its Air Force? Especially since its military have access to far more resources than India.
– No one cares about your Olympic performance. It has as much as to do with Defence as pingpong has to do with Cricket. You are simply desperate for credibility and to bring that up, says quite unflattering things about what you think of this forum.
Please :rolleyes: You have credibility? How? By deleting my posts?
Every nation that is viewed as a major power is represented in the Olympics chart. But the Olympics are really besides the point. The point is ability, resources and organization.
Sure, China puts a lot of effort into training for the Olympics but when it comes to defence, *all* nations put maximum effort into it.
Sure, the US, Japan, Korea, Russia, Germany and China put alot of effort into training organizations that can compete. You could see them on the top of every list in every endeavor where wins and losses are actually tabulated.
– Nowhere have I ever talked about communism in negative light. You are free to search and Xpost any comment I’ve made in that regard, and prove yourself not to be a filthy liar. If communism gives people a good life, well and good.
As “filthy” a liar such as yourself who uses his position to remove my posts and then attempt to call me a racist?
– As for who is better trained, I’ll leave that judgement to others.
You leave your judgement to opinions where actual results are conveniently non-existent. The actual Indian track record in any form of competition with China, whether on the battlefield or economics, is a series of one-sided routs.
– I’m no big fan of Indian civilian life but the armed forces are quite different and have different standards. Both internal and external threats are also quite extensive and concern homeland defence. Certainly China is much richer and the average Chinese is probably better off but that does’nt say anything about your defence standards. Vietnam should have taught you something.
Vietnam had taught the US itself. Ask the French too. Losing to the Vietnamese is akin to losing to perhaps the best warriors post WWII. But the fact of the matter is China went into Vietnam and took four provincial capitals before leaving bloodied. Indians are nowhere near the level of Vietnamese as fighters. Their track record proves competence, yours doesn’t.
Being good in one field does’nt mean that you’ll automatically become good in others. Any Indian could point to the academic performance and financial status of the average Indian in the USA and make all sorts of claims but they are not desperate like you and know the difference between one area and another.
You could also point out that the Chinese in the US does just as well and most of us immigrated with far less money because our ancestors had to build railroads and not white collar HB1 cards.
But it doesn’t change the fact that China has a resource advantage across the board over India. Whether in battle record, the economy, sports, whatever field of human competition.
– 1962 war saw soldiers with .404 rifles go up against AK-47s and its not that your casualties were low.
1962 saw a China increasingly isolated from the USSR and under embargo from the US against an Indian Army trained and equipped by the West. That war was fought because India was allowing the CIA to send infiltrators into Tibet since the 1950s and because Nehru decided that the IN was sufficiently powerful enough to forced a solution to the disputed territories.
The PLA in Tibet were cut off from fresh supplies and reinforcements (only recently has there been a railroad built onto the plateau) while the Indian Army had every advantage of supply lines and communications. The only difference today from 1962 is the Chinese supply lines are better and the Chinese economy and the resources available to the PLA compared to the IA has widen into a gaping chasm.
BTW, if you’re going to accuse me of being a racist, point the racist parts out in the post and not delete the post and then attempt to accuse me of racism. What the Indian members here said and repeatedly imply about the Chinese is far more “racist” though we rarely complain about it.
GoldenDragonYou are rigth in this matter but as I said, the idea is to determ why did the orginal immigrants and susbequent qonquers of australia came from west not from China, why is Queen of Uk the head of the state in Autrailia, not the chairman of CCP. That was what i meant that you didnt get it.
The original conquerors of Australia came from Africa through Asia. They were aborigines. The murderers of the original Australians and the destroyer of their culture came from Europe.
The same with the Americas. The original people there were from Asia. The murderers came from Europe.
Most places in the world were not first founded by Europeans but by Asians. Australia, Oceana and all of North and South America.
Again, the murderers of the original peoples who populated those places came from Europe.
Chairman of the CCP? Communism is a debilitating “western” philosophy. It is not Chinese.
Can you wage some serious discussion which could eventually end up getting to the most deepest of the questions, in this case “why is west dominator of the world?”.
The reason that the West dominate this current phase of world’s history is because of 1) the industrial revolution and 2) the periodic downturn that China goes through every so many centuries.
Europe dominated for the past 500 years. China was the most populous and richest nation on earth for the previous 2000. China endures as powerful state today when its contemporaries, Rome and Egypt, are no longer major powers.
The current state of demographics in the world guarantees an Asia in ascendency with the Western nationalities becoming an increasingly old and smaller part of the world’s population.
There is no doubt that China will be here in year 3000 pretty much occupied by the same people and culture as the one that invented the compass, paper, silk and gunpowder. There is no guarantee that the UK, US, Germany or Russia will still be around or be inhabited by the same white race of today.
In fact, the demographic trends predict a muslim majority in Europe and a black and hispanic dominated US in the future.
GoldenDragonYou are rigth in this matter but as I said, the idea is to determ why did the orginal immigrants and susbequent qonquers of australia came from west not from China, why is Queen of Uk the head of the state in Autrailia, not the chairman of CCP. That was what i meant that you didnt get it.
The original conquerors of Australia came from Africa through Asia. They were aborigines. The murderers of the original Australians and the destroyer of their culture came from Europe.
The same with the Americas. The original people there were from Asia. The murderers came from Europe.
Most places in the world were not first founded by Europeans but by Asians. Australia, Oceana and all of North and South America.
Again, the murderers of the original peoples who populated those places came from Europe.
Chairman of the CCP? Communism is a debilitating “western” philosophy. It is not Chinese.
Can you wage some serious discussion which could eventually end up getting to the most deepest of the questions, in this case “why is west dominator of the world?”.
The reason that the West dominate this current phase of world’s history is because of 1) the industrial revolution and 2) the periodic downturn that China goes through every so many centuries.
Europe dominated for the past 500 years. China was the most populous and richest nation on earth for the previous 2000. China endures as powerful state today when its contemporaries, Rome and Egypt, are no longer major powers.
The current state of demographics in the world guarantees an Asia in ascendency with the Western nationalities becoming an increasingly old and smaller part of the world’s population.
There is no doubt that China will be here in year 3000 pretty much occupied by the same people and culture as the one that invented the compass, paper, silk and gunpowder. There is no guarantee that the UK, US, Germany or Russia will still be around or be inhabited by the same white race of today.
In fact, the demographic trends predict a muslim majority in Europe and a black and hispanic dominated US in the future.
GoldenDragonWho wont be paranoid living next door to a country which has been fighting wars with almost all its neighbours? And please dont say they were the agressors every time.
Every nation around India could say the same thing about her. In fact, the reason that Sri Lanka and Bangladesh use Chinese equipment is to offset what they think is Indian aggression.
Conversely, China is far more friendly with its neighbors in East Asia and that is evidenced by the amount of trade between them. Indian trade with its neighbors is more indicative of Africa than of booming Asia.
lemme get it right you did not even care about the pond and went right across it to US of A. hmmm and we indians paranoid?????
Rather the US came across the pond to establish themselves like an 800-lb gorilla on the eastward side of Asia. The west side of the Himalayas is, for no better word, irrelevant when you are in plain view of such a beast.
By the way cheers guys!! How well have you compared a democracy and an authoritarian rule. Now dont go into saying 10 years and you have changed your ways. India does not rule by stick, We cant and dont force anyone to do anything.
That’s neither here nor there. There are millions of Chinese who would say they have a better life than millions of Indians. It is proven by life expectancy and consumption rates. Do you know that Yum! which is the American company that owns KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell, made more money in China than the US last year? And the trend is going up.
Indians here tend to use “democracy” as a reason why the IAF would somehow be better trained. We could say China is more capitalistic than India and capitalism is far more ideal for efficiency than democracy.
Besides which, Chinese democracies like Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong are far richer than China. But democratic India is poorer than communist China. So whether one is a democracy doesn’t work in comparing Chinese and Indians.
We could take it for a granted that a Chinese in a democratic society would do better than a Chinese in a communist state since the evidence shows it. But we can’t say that a democractic India does better than a communist China since by all rights India should be much richer for being a democracy.
But it is not. Instead, it is several times poorer. So I can’t see how democracy would make the IAF perform any better vis a vis the PLAAF then the rest of Indian society versus China.
We train our jocks the way we see fit, and trust me we are trained well. how well does PLAAF trains? You must be knowing better, and i wont coment on that.
I make no comment on whether the IAF is trained well or not but I could guarantee you it is not automatically trained as well as a country with more wealth and resources just because its from a “democratic” country.
As far as china consuming more, well yes china does cause it has a stronger manufacturing base. India is going the other way, towards service specific industries.
Consumption is a matter of wealth. Hong Kong is 95% service and it has some of the highest consumption rates in the world. India simply buys less because its people are poorer.
The tiger and the dragon will one day rule the world. together or seperate lets leave that question for our kids to decide. what say?
The dragon simply wants to be left alone to develop 🙂 China historically has never concerned itself with anything outside East and Central Asia. This Indian paranoia of China is entirely misplaced. Especially considering the overwhelming and probably unattainable amount of force that China needs to pour into its eastern front to match up with the US and its allies.
GoldenDragonWhen China was taking on superpowers and “standing its ground”, what were its consumption numbers versus the superpowers? No where near, I’d imagine. But China was still formidable. What makes the comparison between India and China any less relevant?
Victor, at least that is a better logical response than the oft-spoken lunacy that the PLAAF would have lower flight hours than the IAF when the Chinese have at least 3 times more resources.
Nowhere do I said that India is not a formidable nation. By the shear virtue of size it is formidable.
But in comparison to the US, it pales into insignificance. And China prepares for the United States, Japan and Taiwan. Each one of which is more powerful than anything India could bring to China’s field of vision.
So no, there cannot be anything like a MKK to spare for the Indian Ocean.
The other question is whether a MiG-29K can take on a MKK and the ludicrous assumption is that while the MKK is the better plane, the Indian pilots are better trained — even when the Chinese have more resources and have historically to created teams that can compete with superpowers whether in the hills on Korea or in the fields of competition and contention in Athens.
It’s downright silly wishfull thinking to assume that the Chinese would simply not train its pilots even with a massive resources advantage as compared to Indians. It makes no sense. Why would the Olympics team get more resources than the PLAAF?
The truth is the PLAAF gets the same margin of resource advantages over the IAF that every facet of China (except the cricket team) gets over its Indian counterpart.
GoldenDragonAlthough winning medals at the Olympics may not be a national priority, developing and maintaining a credible national defense is, even at the expense of other worthy causes.
Nepal has national defense as its priority too but it doesn’t mean it is able to take on any major power :rolleyes:
Developing an Olympics teams comes from a nation with a surplus in resources and abilities so that it is not spending its last cent on feeding and clothing its people. That’s why the US, Germany, Russia and all of the major states are clustered at the top. Hawk hit it on the button when he said that Indians need their resources to feed its population. It is still mainly at subsistence level.
We know from consumption rates that Indians on average consumes 1/3 to 1/5th of what the average Chinese consumes. China also allocates three to five times the resources to its military (and air force) than India could afford.
Those are hard numbers. Expecting China to simply train its pilots less even when it has at least 300% more resources than India is ludicrous wishful thinking. Nothing has changed since 1962 except that the gap between China and India had widen into a chasm.
To think that just because a country doesn’t really put a priority on sports, it automatically doesn’t do it for its defenses is well… quite stupid.
Simple geo-political logic. It’s a matter of organization and resources. It’s nothing more than that.
A country that cannot AFFORD an Olympics squad like the ones created by the other great powers cannot AFFORD a military anywhere near one which has to contend with both the USSR and the US throughout its 50 years of history.
It is ridiculous to think a country that cannot organize simple teams would suddenly be able to organize a world-beating air force :rolleyes:
In fact, the only reason we could pretend otherwise is because the Indian air force is not put to real competition. Anyone could say their team is “better trained” if they don’t have to put it on a field of competition.
GoldenDragonThe link between Olympic medals and Pilot training is one of the most retarded I’ve heard in a while though.
It’s a matter of organization and training. Only people who live a fantasy land where a nation which is totally incompetent at nearly everything is suddenly great fighter pilots because it participated in a few “exercises” :rolleyes:
Every nation at the top of the Olympics are world powers or powers in its own region.
Pilot training is decided by the amount of flying hours + Real world Experience + Training with other forces so that an exchange of ideas occur.
Correct. The key being “real world experience” should be something tangible like war experience. Among nations not at the war, the most important is flying hours. Flying hours equal resources and $$$ for its pilots to fly.
China consumes at least several multiples more of everything than India. It consumes three times more oil than India for example.
http://www.geohive.com/charts/charts.php?xml=en_oilcons&xsl=en_res
rank country 1980 1990 2000 2003 2004 percent of total
1. USA 794.1 781.8 897.6 912.3 937.6 24.89%
2. China 88.0 110.3 230.1 266.4 308.6 8.19%
3. Japan 237.7 247.7 255.5 248.9 241.5 6.41%
4. Russian Federation na 249.7 123.5 124.7 128.5 3.41%
5. Germany 147.3 127.3 129.8 125.1 123.6 3.28%
6. India 31.6 57.9 106.1 113.1 119.3 3.17%
But according to you, for some daydreaming idiocy, the PLAAF would suddenly decides to give its pilots less flight hours than India who has access to less than one-third as much fuel :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonThe MiG-29s to Algeria story had been “confirmed” close to a year and half ago. It’s actually disconcerting that they are announcing this again and at “1.5 million” too.
GoldenDragonWhy should people in India care what those countries and its people do with their free time/money? If they find it fun, let them enjoy them. for example, most Indians don’t enjoy gymnastics and consequently don’t care who gets the gold in those games or if India has a gymnastics team. 😀 :dev2: :dev2:
The question is not whether you care but whether you have the ability to train people to compete against other nations.
The average American or Chinese doesn’t like to kill people either. But they train people to fight and kill because it is what major powers do to protect themselves and their status in the geo-political hierarchy. Training personel for international competition like the Olympics is no difference.
There is no reason to assume that a nation which can train personel capable of competing with the US and Russia across the board in major endeavors like the Olympics would not do the same for its pilots, especially since it has far more money and resources than its opponent in this particular scenario.
No one is disputing the Chinese record or the outcome of these wars. It only justifies India’s continued need for a modern armed force to prevent a repeat of this “minor” incident.
Like I said in my previous post, there is no evidence of any major modern systems like the MKK anywhere near India. Again, everything pales into insignificance for China when compared to Taiwan and the certainty of US involvement there. India is simply geo-politically insignificant — especially since the only important parts of the region, the sea lanes, are controlled by the United States.
With China, the regions of importance are:
1. East Asia: Taiwan, Japan, Russia, the Korean Peninsula and the US
2. Central Asia: Russia, Pakistan, the Shanghai 5 states
3. SouthEast Asia: ASEAN and Australia
Currently, even Africa and South America enjoys more press in China than India and the subcontinent.
China has good friends in the South Asia with Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. But it is not a particularly critical region, especially compared to East and Central Asia.
Again, when a nation faces the US and its allies, there is simply nothing to spare against anyone else. Especially not for a region that is absolutely irrelevant to its sense of survival.
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