GoldenDragon:))
Man, that Mig-21 in US markings look nice!
GoldenDragonYou idotically said russia hasnt devoloped a advanced radar like that for destroyers and i provided proof of some very capable radars that were devoloped by russia for the russian navy and export so i rest may case.
Idiotic. I said nothing about Russia’s ability to make good radars or not. I said there is nothing like the 052C’s system on any Russian destroyer so there is no evidence that it’s a “knock off” as you stupidly said.
Whether the 052C’s system is as good as current conventional Russian systems like the Tombstone is besides the point. The point is there is no evidence of connection with the Kvant or whatever make-believe secret unimplemented Russian R&D project you idiotically throw up for discussion.
GoldenDragonLet me repeat myself. That was the dumbest response possible when you attempt to say that because Russia has plenty of unknown, unimplemented R&D projects then it is somehow related to something from a former Soviet republic.
And even you should understand the Russians have a funding problem which means less R&D not more. :rolleyes:
GoldenDragoneven thou i am not the one saying its ukrainian i think its some decent chinese phased array knock off. You cant say that its not soviet based simply because they didnt have such system installed on destroyer as i said before a lot of soviet systems were R&D and were never implemented due to lack of funding.
The dumbest response I could imagine. You are trying to use as “proof” that a system (which is unlike any Russian/former Soviet we see) is Russian/FSU by saying that it is based a “secret” Soviet project. How convenient, now you don’t have to prove your assertions because it’s secret. :rolleyes:
There is no way to prove or disprove make believe assertions. If there isn’t any similar Russian system on a destroyer then there’s no connection until you find one.
But I’ll grant you that lack of funding in Russia s real. It also means a lack of funding for practical R&D too. Systems are not implemented because they are not practical or they don’t work or they simply failed.
GoldenDragonAs i said from the begining i doubt those phased array radar are very capable.
Capable or not is besides the point. The Russian/former Soviet Republic systems are nothing like the 052C’s so it is idiocy to claim any connections between the two. We don’t see anything similar on Russian destroyers.
GoldenDragonBF…..India appear to have “missed the bus” in this copying game 🙁 by trying to be the “good boy” because of our patethic honour abiding congress govt. leaders 😡
It “missed the bus” because it never had the technical ability to ride the bus in the first place.
This is more about India’s inability to replicate military equipment without full technical transfer and massive foreign help on the scene, not that it is more “honorable.” :rolleyes: It was certainly not very honorable in using a civilian nuclear reactor given by Canadian as aid for India’s poor to develop its nuclear program.
India has no qualms about copying things that it can copy and is the world’s largest violator of pharmaceutical copyright.
Now, the difference between China and India is that even under the worst period of isolation when China was at odds with BOTH Russia and the US in the 1960s and early 70s, the Chinese were able to develop and build equipment from small transport planes (Y-11) all the way up to nuclear submarines on their own.
The Han SSN and especially the Xia SSBN was far more complicated than anything attempted by even the Japanese never mind the Indians.
GoldenDragonNow, the history of US-China colloboration in the 1980s is worth a look. It’s a fascinating period.
We are talking about a time when a communist (though rapidly becoming capitalist) country put absolute faith in the United States.
The Y-10 episode was a perfect example of China’s thinking in that period. China deliberate killed a project that was technically a massive success. In the 1980s, China had built a 707 size aircraft that didn’t just fly 15 minutes around a test base but made 130 full flights with passengers and cargo from Shanghai to Harbin, Beijing and seven other cities. It even went to Lhasa in Tibet, a very taxing route, seven times.
China was willing to kill this project because it believed it would get Western aircraft and Western technology.
GoldenDragonIncorrect. The Kvant radar is a pure search radar only and lacks fire control and missile guidance functions seen in the radar of the 052C.
Not only that, the Kvant has only been on carrier sized ships. There is absolutely NO Russian destroyer with a system anywhere near the 052C’s.
As far as the other stuff about Chinese “stealing” technology. Well, the entire Russian a/c industry in the jet age was dependent on Russian “stealing” German research and “stealing” the Nene engine from Great Britain so are we to say that Russia’s aircraft is based on stolen tech :rolleyes: (Actually many Americans and Westerners have said that.)
Hell, the Russian nuclear arsenal was built due to the Rosenbergs passing on American nuclear secrets to Russia. Rosenbergs were executed for that treachery.
GoldenDragonOne striking difference in the projects – the J-10 is PLA driven and the FC-1 is CAC/commercially driven. This may have an impact on the speed of development, especially considering the Pakistani involvement in the project.
One aspect of the J-10 project that has always puzzeled me was the unusually high number of prototypes that have been built. I find no reasonable explaination for this.
The “prototypes” seem more like limited batch production to work out kinks. If you look at modern Chinese warship construction, it’s batches of two.
I have not yet had time to research the J-10 engine order history. I seem to recall a reported order of a significant number of j-10 engines after completion of the order for 54. I don’t know if I just don’t remember correctly or if that order never happened. At a reported production rate of 2 per month there should be two more regiments out there. If there were, I think we would know about them. Their non-existance is also part of the equation.
From Russian sources we heard that 54 AL-31FN were delivered between 2002 and 2004 with 100 new engines ordered for delivery. The total amounts of engines for the J-10 is estimated at 250. This is from the Russian reports. (1)
So as far as the Russians are concernd there are 54 delivered and 100 on order.
————————————————
Notes:
(1)http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=589840
“Between 2002 and 2004, Salyut delivered 54 Al-31FPs to China for a test fleet of J-10s. Lat year, Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, negotiated the sale of the first lot of engines for mass production of the plane.
Salyut general director Yury Eliseev told Kommersant that “This is the latest of our contracts with China. It is for the delivery of 100 AL-31FN engines. It is worth more than $300 million. The engines will not be installed in Russian fighters, but in Chinese.”
GoldenDragonalso, if there is a problem with the J10, how can CAC progress so quickly with the FC1?
seeing how many key members of the FC1 team are also important members of the J10 team, their continued presence on the FC1 project could only be explained, in parellal with a problem with the J10, by the theory that CAC has effectively given up on the J10.
surely that is too big a development to not get noticed or hinted at.
The J-10 certainly isn’t failed project or one that is given up. I don’t think Rick had said that. He makes the point that it is delayed along much the same line as the JH-7.
You are quite right in mentioning the J-10’s team involvement in the FC-1. As posted in this thread before, many of the lead people involved in the FC-1 are from the J-10 project. In fact, we first found out about the first flight of the two-seat J-10B from an article on the FC-1’s lead designer. The test pilot for the J-10 is the lead test pilot for the FC-1. All this was reported with the repeated theme that these people had finished an earlier unnamed project, obviously the J-10.
The J-10B itself is an obvious sign that the J-10 will go on. The J-10 two-seater was not designed from the beginning of the project like the Eurofighter.
The single-seat version has to be successful at some level before the two-seater was built. Otherwise, resources for the two-seat version would never have been spent.
GoldenDragonI think Rick makes some good points. There are many signs of trouble almost identical to the JH-7’s development history. Trouble working with foreign engines that delayed things for a decade with nary a picture especially in the JH-7’s case. In fact, the J-10 would be just as cloistered as the JH-7 if it weren’t for the internet arriving in China during the late 1990s.
But on the flip side, the amount of engines being contracted over the several years (at 154 current count) is evidence that it is moving into mass production just as the JH-7/A is after the engine problem is sorted out. The problem “sorted out” could simply mean that the PLAAF is willing to accept large numbers of J-10 with foreign engines which it might have been unwilling before.
GoldenDragonPicts of former Chinese Pres. Jiang Zemin looking at the J-10 (supposedly in 1998!)
GoldenDragonSince this thread is brought back from the dead, let’s add some saucy rumours… I think it’s already in the China-thread, but this would be a better place for it.
http://www.ixarm.com/Nigeria-expresses-interest-in
Don’t you just hate African countries wasting their scarce resources on useless bling-bling stuff like supersonic fighters? Even though a Nigerian Finback would really look nice in my logs.
A Nigerian J-8II would indeed look nice 😀 But the chances are that the Nigerian writer confused the J-8 for the K-8.
I see no reason why Nigeria would need a Cold-War style Mach 2 interceptor. There is simply no need for one around its neighborhood.
The K-8 is the mostly likely the real item of interest. It had already sold in Africa (Egypt, Zimbabwe, Namibia) and it can be used as a inexpensive light attack craft.
GoldenDragonAccording to Qianlong, “Flight International” said the FC-1/K-8 combination is in the running (and probably the front runner) for Bangladesh’s contract of 16 new fighters and 12 trainers/light attack craft.
GoldenDragonAny pics????]
Not yet but China’s participation had been crappy in recent years. Nothing but models even at home in Zhuhai.
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