Only LOSERs worry about others’ possessions.

Well, jealous people do too 😀

Israel is out to betray the US and weaken the American position :rolleyes:

Israel would stupidly continue to deny the Lavi/J-10 connection in spite of irrefutably US intelligence evidence :rolleyes:

US intelligence is too stupid to make this irrefutable evidence public and force Israel to admit :rolleyes:

All evidence is hidden so we can have a handy conspiracy theory as proof :rolleyes:

If we had to solve a real dispute between persons, I would agree.

You would agree if we were both European. You would not agree only because the J-10 is Chinese.

Because it is Chinese, you ignore basic evidence and assume yourself to be an “expert” who can know more than the Israeli government 😀

I give-in I do not know very much about Chinese mentality.

It doesn’t matter if you know chinese mentality. That’s unimportant.

What does matter is that you know nothing of Chinese development nor do know the avenues of collecting Chinese information. Basically you have no information that is not Westernized conjecture or interpretation.

There are those westerners here who do know how to collect Chinese information and who do know the history of Chinese aviation development. You’re not one of those.

You are debating without any real information but at the same time you refuse to believe the Israeli goverment. You refuse to believe the obvious that the J-10 is in production China not Israel.

“Write or wrong, my country”, is not my motto.

Your motto is more like “Right or wrong, my stereotypes of the Chinese.” 😀

I am defending the evidence, not a country. The evidence begins with the Israeli denial, the dependence of Israel on the US and the dependence of the Lavi on American technology. Everything mitigates against the Lavi as the J-10.

You are defending your stereotypes of China with nothing but conspiracy theories.

The J-10 must be Israeli to you even though the Israelis categorically denies it, that’s a pretty stupid way to argue. Don’t let prejudice get in the way of evidence 😀

There are stories of a mock dogfight between an Su-27 and an F-15 out over the Atlantic when FLANKERs were visiting Langley. Suffice it to say that the FLANKER did not go away the loser. And as for the airshow demos, Sukhoi countered some of the claims that “the FLANKER can turn, but it’ll never do that at combat weight” by puttign a fully loaded Su-30MK #603 through the standard FLANKER display routine with a full load of weapons (and maybe fuel, but I’m not sure about that-either way combat rarely takes place at MTOW anyway).

Erh, Soc, you know that Langley Flanker story is one of the most pooh-poohed non-events in the USAF’s F-15 community 😀

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/flanker_combat.html

SU-27 v F-15 DACT urban legends
Tue May 21 16:32:21 2002
198.26.123.37

Okay, I can’t stand it anymore. Twice in the last month there have been threads here talking about Flankers fighting Eagles in Summer ’92 and having their lunch. After this last time I decided to check on it. I was surprised, first of all, that I had never heard about this before. I flew Eagles in the 94FS at Langley, which was the squadron that went to Russia then hosted them when they visited the U.S.

With my usual impeccable sense of timing I managed to leave the squadron shortly before all this happened, but I still personally knew and and had flown with 90% of the pilots assigned to the squadron at the time and 100% of the pilots that flew in these exchange visits.

Somehow in the 10 years that have passed they had failed to mention to me in numerous conversations about this very subject that any DACT occurred, I don’t think so!

In addition to still flying for the Air Force Reserve I work as an F-15 sim instructor at Langley; which means I’m current on the latest F-15 progams and performance, surely there would be some record (classified or unclassified) of this apochryphal event and the lessons learned if the Eagle had been beaten so badly.

There isn’t, period dot

Rather than relying on all this hearsay I contacted three pilots that I was stationed with at Langley, and who flew in Flanker backseats, gave Russian pilots Eagle rides and flew Eagles in formation with the SU-27’s and are still flying the F-15. I passed on the Air Forces Monthly “story” as quoted, and after they had stopped laughing hysterically the bottom line they told me was this: the amount of DACT that took place between Eagles and Flankers in Summer 1992 was…NONE, nada, zip, zero, nyet, a big doughnut.

DACT was not just frowned upon or discouraged; it was forbidden, mainly for two reasons. Nobody wanted the political heat/fallout that would result if one of the jets went out of control and crashed or, worse, if they had a mid-air in the hard maneuvering that DACT implies. Second, despite recent warm feelings toward the Russians nobody was going to allow anything remotely classified to be passed on, so the F-15’s were flown radar, TEWS, PACS panel, ICS off. When all your weapons systems are turned off it becomes pointless to fly DACT, unless you’re planning to recreate WWI, WWII, and Korea by fighting guns only.

In which case give me an A-10 that can turn up it’s own ass and has a big gun.

What actually did occur (and probably the loose basis for this “dramatic story”) was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides the F-15’s and SU-27’s went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 ‘o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation’s original heading.

During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves? Basically nothing.

In the fighter community nobody starts 3000 foot perch setups at the defender’s dead six, because staying behind somebody after that kind of start is on a par with clubbing baby seals in its level of difficulty. Instead the offender actually moves to the defender’s 4 or 8 ‘o clock for 3000 feet before starting the fight. Even then in this more difficult setup the offender still stays in an offensive position 95% of the time. The 5% he doesn’t is usually a result of him grossly porking up his BFM. It should be emphasized this was a single event, unplanned, unexpected, and half-heartedly done and not some series of “mock dogfights.”

As Paul Harvey says “that’s the rest of the story” straight from participants in the event not some second, third, or fourth hand magazine article or internet rumor which just repeats what somebody else wrote. In the future if you want to argue the merits of the two aircraft please spare us the repetition of this non-event as proof and stick to comparing them based on their airframe/weapons performance as published.

Regards,
Murph

This P-3 Orion was supposedly shot from a Y-8.

I think there’s two groups of people in here. One group thinks that the J-10 was a direct derivative of the Lavi design. Personally, I side with group two, which believes that the J-10 was developed with the assistance of Lavi engineers. The J-10 is obviously not a direct copy. Then again, it is rumored that a J-10 design first flew in like 1996 and crashed, leading to a redesign. Maybe that original platform, if it did in fact exist, bore more of a resemblance to the Lavi?

There is also a third group.

A third that believes that J-10 could have foreign influence but certainly not from a country that officially denies it and which has no history of designing a proper aircraft outside of ripping off the Mirage. Both facts weigh heavily against the Lavi.

If the US intelligence community has any solid proof, Israel would be forced to its eat its lies. It would be the biggest betrayal of the United States since the Rosenbergs sold the nuclear bomb to the USSR. (BTW, the Rosenbergs were executed for their treachery. Unlike Flogger’s stupid comment, treachery and betrayal is not “just politics.”)

Now it is possible that Israel sold American technology like radar and engine which is what China needed, not some paper blueprints like the Lavi.

We know the engine isn’t Israeli. But radar is possible. But an American radar is not the “Lavi” which could not be more than instructions on how to put American parts together. If it were more than that then Israel would have built the Lavi in numbers like China had built the JH-7.

If one is talking about captured aircraft . . . 😀

The infamous Zero with the US roundel: