DeinoErrrrrr… what? What European or US company do Russians cooperate with regarding their new projects like T-50? :confused:
What T-50 ??
As far as I saw Your statement it was posted in mind to the cooperation to develop that long-haul airliner together … and another post here that China can only contribute money to that project … so why do You mention the T-50 ?
Deino
Deino…
Thanks a lot ! 😉
DeinoI want to ask latenlazy or and other Chinese who share his view on Russia.
From what sources do you take information about Russia? Your opinion seems to be very common amongst Chinese comrades so I guess it was formed under influence of same sources.
Is it Chinese media? Or Russian/Western?
Interesting question even if I’m not from China nor a China-Fan-boy (maybe at best a very enthusiastic enthusiast:p), but overall I agree that these topics usually went down the drain after only a few posts as soon as one on each side get’s a bit too “emotional” … that counts the same to China-and Russia-supporters. As such I have a similar feeling in the other direction:
I want to ask xxxx or and other Russians who share this view on China.
From what sources do you take information about China? Your opinion seems to be very common amongst Russian comrades so I guess it was formed under influence of same sources.
Is it Russian media? Or Western?
I really don’t understand it.
Deino
DeinoIt is a good deal but it also clearly shows that despite of the nationalistic jingo we get to see from Asia lately the Chinese industrial base in aerospace cannot match the Russian one as we speak. The Chinese would not bother cooperating with anyone if they were able to pull that project by themselves.
Agreed … but You can also turn that sentence into another direction:
It is a good deal but it also clearly shows that despite of the nationalistic jingo we get to see from Russia lately that their industrial base in aerospace cannot match the US or European one as we speak. The Russians would not bother cooperating with anyone if they were able to pull that project by themselves.
Bingo ! 😉
DeinoMy favourite J-20 shot so far! You don’t happen to have “J-20 – 11.10.11 – 02 larger.jpg” lying around?
😉
Yeppp .. mine too ! … but as I saw, lateandlazy was faster than me. 😀
There are some more nice shouts, but this was surely the best:
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1110/612420.html
Besides that: Any info if they are from today ??? … and what’s the number of flights so far ?
Deino
DeinoCome on … let’s go back to topic since no Russian fan-boy will be persuaded by his belief that Russia has still a super-duper industrial base comparative for the future !
Here we go ….
Deino…. I would be more worried about Germany’s low birthrate.
Agreed … but at least I’ve done my best to reverse that trend ! :diablo:
DeinoAny idea, what’s behind this latest news ???
… I can’t think of a C919 & MS-21 merger !
Russia, China on home stretch in talks on long-range plane project
BEIJING, October 10 (Itar-Tass) — Russia and China have entered the final phase in the negotiations on the crationt of long-range plane project, RF Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Zhukov told journalists on the results of the 15th meeting of the Russian-Chinese commission for the preparation of regular meetings between the two countries’ governments.
“We’ve come to grips with discussing the project to create a long-haul wide-body plane,” said Zhukov. “Our Chinese partners have taken a long time to consider if they should engage in cooperation with us, and now we are closely dealing with this.”
The RF deputy prime minister also said that another project on the creations of a heavy helicopter is being actively discussed at present.
According to Zhukov, the issues of energy resources supply to China were not discussed on Monday. A special venue – the energy dialogue forum have been created to address these issues, he said.
“Today, we have not discussed these issues at the meeting of the commission for the preparation of the meetings of the prime ministers. They will be discussed within the prime ministers’ dialogue and at their meeting,” the RF deputy prime minister said.
RF Prime Minister Vladimir Putin will pay a working visit to Beijing on October 11-12 at the invitation of Premier of the Chinese State Council Wen Jiabao. During the visit, Putin will take part in the 16th regular meeting of the heads of government of Russia and China in Beijing and have a conversation with Chinese President Hu Jintao, the RF government’s press service reported earlier. “During Russian-Chinese talks, the sides plan to discuss a wide range of issues of economic, scientific, technical and humanitarian cooperation. Special attention will be paid to the improvement of the mutual trade infrastructure, expansion of investment interaction and cooperation in highly technological fields, and implementation of long-term projects in the field of energy. The sides will also exchange opinions on topical international and regional problems,” it said.
http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/243624.html
Deino
DeinoOMG … why on earth do the Russian fan boys only see what they want to see !!?? 🙁
Besides that if You want to read a good joke … :p
Chinese Engines Miss The Finish Line
by James Dunnigan
October 8, 2011Russia is not conceding defeat in its effort to halt Chinese theft of Russian military technology. This can be seen in China having more difficulty than it will admit in its battle to free itself from dependence on Russia for high-performance jet engines for its top-line jet fighters. This surfaced recently when China protested restrictions Russia was insisting on for the use of AL-31FN engines China ordered two months ago. Russia wants guarantees that the AL-31FNs will only be used to power Chinese warplanes, and that none of them will be disassembled to assist Chinese engineers in perfecting the illegal Chinese clone of the AL-31FN, the WS-10A. China is resisting these restrictions, which simply makes the Russians more insistent. China has been stealing Russian military tech for years, especially since the end of the Cold War. Back then, Russia could no longer to buy new military gear, and it was only orders from China and India that were keeping many Russian defense firms in business. This was, and still is, particularly true with Russian manufacturers of military jet engines. Thus Russia wants, and still needs, the sales, but does not want China to become a competitor by using stolen Russian technology.
And then there’s the problem with China not wanting to admit that its own engine development efforts have consistently come up short. For example, last year, China revealed that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. Then, two months ago, China ordered another 123 AL-31FNs, to be delivered over the next two years.
The Chinese claim the WS-10A is superior to the AL-31F, even though the WS-10A copied a lot of the Russian technology. The Chinese say they have improved on that. For example, as delivered from Russia, the original AL-31 was good for 900 hours of operation. Chinese engineers figured out how to tweak the design of the engine so that it would last for 1,500 hours. Russia has since improved their basic AL-31 lifetime to 1,500 hours, and, most recently, 2,000 hours. When pressed, the Chinese will claim that they cannot produce enough WS-10As for all the new airframes they are building. But the reality is that the WS-10As have some serious, and unpredictable, reliability problems.
China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five years, which implies that Chinese engine manufacturers still have a way to go. For years, China has imported two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31, and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29’s RD-33) for the JF-17 (a F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan.) But in the meantime, Chinese engineers have managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL-31 engine. This Chinese copy, the WS-10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS-13, to replace the RD-93 as well. While the Chinese have been able to build engines that are durable, they are still having problems with reliability.
China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did in the beginning. Developing the necessary engine design and construction skills is difficult. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades. The Chinese consider the J-10 and WS-10A part of the learning process, and they do learn from their mistakes.
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Chinese-Engines-Miss-The-Finish-Line-10-8-2011.asp
Deino 😉
Deino] finally a clearer shot of that bird !
I thought “clearer” shouldn’t mean hiding behind two trucks. 8b
] much ado about nothing.
To quote an ancient Chinese proverb:
“It’s too good to be true. Oh, it isn’t.”
Agreed but at least the best shot with final confirmation of 1034 … the best photo so far – at least that I had – shows it much too blurred.
Deino
DeinoThe PLAAF has officially come out to deny the rumor:
Yepp .. and here finally a clearer shot of that bird !
Deino
DeinoI keept hearing that for the last 5 years..
But it does not help Chineese AF, if its not the right kind of industry and know how..
But does it serve the RuAF to deliver engines ??? And regarding know how I would be carefully if You look at other civil powerplanes, their quality and numbers of delivered per year.
Honestly guys that discussion (and esp. that what is written by some between the lines !) leds to nothing.
It may be correct that at the moment the Chinese aviation Industry is way behing in the number of engines manufactured to the Russian one, …. but it still produced enough aircraft to be delivered to the PLAAF and PLANAF powered by imported (Russia) engines.
In contrast the Russian aviation industry produces surely enough aircraft engines ??? … but how many of them do power Russian aircrafts in the Russian AF ??
As such it seems to me that the current situation in Russia is still worse since the RuAF would be happy to acquire this number of aircraft instead to export the engines.
Deino
DeinoHmmm Yes that rumour is already out since two days but – at least at the SDF – the currently accepted opinion is that it was nothing but a rumour, since this photo below reportedly shows this prototype 1034 “after” its crash !
I have to admit that proves or disproves nothing but overall it’s strange.
Deino
DeinoNot really new, since we’ve heard about that AL-31FN-order already a few weks (months ?) ago, but new to me is the part regarding the J-11 with the AL-31F:
Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines
AIN Defense Perspective » October 3, 2011by Vladimir Karnozov
Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters.
October 3, 2011, 4:45 AMChina has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory.
The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.
Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October.
Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. “Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,” Masalov said.
Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.
Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News
Besides that, what’s wrong at the moment ?? 😮 :confused: … within the last two weeks not a single sensational unveiling ?? :diablo:
Deino
DeinoYes Draken was briefly looked at.
The Lin Biao-dominated PLAAF was looking for supersonic interceptors that had some rough field STOL capability in event that during conflict with either soviets or americans the airfields were going to go first. J-13 light fighter was also born under that vision.btw they were briefly looking at harriers too.
As for ironic part.
not really. two different time scale. 80s vs 90s. The versions PLAAF were looking at were much early and they didn’t have the $$$ to buy it anyways (incase of M2K) or politically impossible (surrender all sovereignty essentially) to pull those deal off.
But french made good by providing other stuff to China.Also, as an addendum:
early 90s Chinese deal with Soviet Union/Russians were intially evolved around Mig-29s, it was almost an accident of history that they were to buy su-27SK.
alot of early su-27SK were pretty primative by today’s standards but still much better overall than whatever chinese had in production and shenyang baulked at buying-producing Su-27s. instead want to push their own design… an evolution of J-8II.radar wise they (PLAAF) wanted APG-66 to integrate if possible (well-known story of peace pearl etc) but that was really a dual/counter/backup with the domestic JL-10 radar developement. the whole of chinese aerospace industry learned quite a bit from peace pearl on how to integrate avionics and radars, even if the deal didn’t go through.
JL-10 was a really interesting radar…almost all front line fighters in PLAN/PLAAF service had a version of that radar one time or the other.
more on that later.80s were a interesting and trying time for PLAAF and the whole chinese aerospace industry, alot of new projects were in conception, you are seeing the fruits of them today.
Actually one of my most favourite topics !! 😮
As You pointed out there were quite a few “considerations” – also including the Swiss P-16 as an attacker – like the Mirage III thru the 60s, the Harrier and all thses nice cooperations during “Peace Pearl”.
For that I would give a lot of my body to learn what was already delivered or considered beyong the known projects like the Super-7 and the avionics upgrade for the J-8B … some mention that Grumman was also “thinking” about a new clean-sheet design … Do You know anything about that ??
Deino
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