SpudmanWPIs this still the $85mill WITHOUT engine figure?
Per the FY2018 USAF Budget doc, $87 mil F-35A Rec Flyaway WITH engine.
SpudmanWPincluding AESA radar and 20%VAT For M (carrier version) Of course you try to compare F35A to Rafale M, well no it should be compared to Rafale C. FY2018 F-35A cost 87 mil according to latest SAR? So no, less expensive. Not to talk about CPFH…
Actually, I used the Rafale B, not the M, converted the euro to $ and added the inflation to adjust it to FY2018 so that they would be apples to apples.
Where in that Senate doc does it mention CPFH?
SpudmanWPI’m not the one that claimed something.
So, $88 in FY2018 dollars without the latest AESA, IR IRST, wing tanks, or LTP.
Even if it had all of those, it’s still more expensive than an FY2018 F-35A at $87 mil.
SpudmanWPShow the source with numbers, from what year the Euro is set, and exactly what’s included.
SpudmanWPConsidering most of them use the same messaging protocol evolved from AIM-9, probably not so much. And MICA feasibility was already studied. MBDA once had ideas to push them out on non-French fighters. The high price made it untenable.
They, along with every other weapon & fighter manufacturer needs to read the writing on the wall. It spells “UAI”. NATO has their own version called NUAI.
SpudmanWPThe F-35 seems quite expensive according to this study.
Take a look at the source of that $206.
He added together the long lead & production contracts. This is wrong because the production contract includes the LL items, it’s not in addition to.
He also added a ton of contracts that had no mention of Lot 9 in them at all like a concurrency contract that covered every F-35 flying today (220+ of them), developmental contracts, support contracts, etc.
SpudmanWPSince they will both have F-35s, it could be a F-22 type fighter geared mainly for A2A. In other words a replacement for the Eurofighter/F-15J & a jobs program.
SpudmanWPUPDATES
WASHINGTON — F-35 flight operations at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, will continue to be suspended as analysts investigate five incidents where pilots suffered hypoxia-like symptoms, a spokeswoman for the base said Monday.
Since May 2, five 56th Fighter Wing pilots have reported symptoms of oxygen deprivation while flying the U.S. Air Force version of the joint strike fighter, including two incidents that occurred last week. In all cases, the backup oxygen systems kicked in and pilots were able to safely land the plane, but training has ground to a halt to allow a team from the F-35 Joint Program Office, or JPO, to study the events.
Maj. Rebecca Heyse, spokeswoman for the 56th Fighter Wing, said a JPO team of engineers, maintainers and aeromedical specialists arrived on base Sunday and are currently narrowing down potential causes for the incidents. The hope is to identify the root cause over the next couple days, but no date has been set as this time for a tentative resumption of operations, she told Defense News.
“The 56th Fighter Wing will continue their pause in local F-35A flying to coordinate analysis and communication between pilots, maintainers, medical professionals and a team of military and industry experts,” she said in a statement. “This coordination will include technical analysis of the physiological incidents to date and discussions on possible risk mitigation options to enable a return to flying operations.
“Updates will be provided as our teams work together toward safely returning to building the future of airpower through trained F-35A pilots. The safety of our airmen is paramount and we will take as much time as necessary to ensure their safety.”
In the meantime, Heyse said the 56th Fighter Wing is continuing a variety of pilot education measures, including an all-call meeting with the JPO team to discuss the events. Cancellation of flight operations affects 49 pilots and 55 aircraft total.
At this point, little is known about the incidents themselves, including whether the On-Board Oxygen Generating System failed in any of the cases. All five events occurred with different jets from multiple squadrons and production batches, Heyse confirmed. However, because only pilots from Luke AFB have developed hypoxia-like symptoms, the service continues to believe it remains a localized problem.
Brig. Gen. Brook Leonard, commander of the 56th Fighter Wing, will make the final call on when to resume flight operations.
SpudmanWPI put Senate in brackets because I, not being up on French politics, did not know the English word for whatever French word they used for it. I did not mean anything by it.
How can the Rafale, in a whole package deal, is still more expensive than the F-35 (see the the Korean deal)?
The reason why I doubt when someone says “check the Senate numbers” is that to make an apples to apples comparison they need to:
1. State the year that the Euro is based on for inflation adjusting purposes ($75mil in 1990 is not the same as $75 mil in 2020). There are still those that claim that the F-35 was “promised” to cost $50 mil without saying that the $50 mil estimate was a 1996 dollar.
2. What exactly is included in the cost (airframe, avionics, radar, engines, pods, LTPs, etc)?
See a US Budget doc for an example if detailed cost breakdowns.
SpudmanWPlol.. explain to me why French “Senate” costs are so cheap yet every one of the Export Rafale deals is so expensive. I’ll give you a hint.. they are hiding (ie subsidizing) the costs of the Rafale. They can do that for French sales but cannot hide them for Export sales.
“CPFH of F-35”, 20% more than the F-16 for US Usage & labor rates. These are still less than the Rafale’s.
SpudmanWPYou do realize that not only did you mix all three variants, but US purchases include large base construction costs (Flight sims, etc) in LRIPs.
Here is the FY2018 budget for the F-35A.
The green row is Full Flyaway cost, yellow is non-recurring. The quotes about the F-35’s cost have always been in reference to it’s annual “REC Flyaway”, ie what it costs to build every year. It’s the Green mins the Yellow (they screwed up the doc this year). I’ll do the math for you. Full Flyaway is $99 mil an REC flyaway is $87. This is only going to get cheaper every year as production ramps up. Program estimates are that the F-35A REC Flyaway will hit $75 to $80 mil in a few years. The Rafale is not getting any cheaper. So, take the “bare airframe” cost from the Indian order and compare it to even the Full Flyaway of the F-35A and the Rafale is more expensive.
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SpudmanWPif you want to compare, do, but for e.G. korean F-35, or compare with french senate numbers.
You want me to compare vague, subsidized internal French numbers with a full package export order??? Talk about apples to baseballs!
However, if you want to include Korean full export package ($195 mil per) with any Rafale export package, be my guest.
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SpudmanWPThe F-22 issue was a valve on the vest and not the OBOGS unit itself. No on the USN OBOGS issue, they are still having problems.
This just in:
The hypoxia incident appears to be isolated to Luke AFB and will not affect the F-35A’s appearance at the Paris air show, Lockheed spokesman says. The aircraft pair for the show will fly from Hill AFB, Utah and their test pilots have not experienced issues, says Lockheed.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-cancels-f-35a-flying-at-luke-afb-438124/
SpudmanWPThe F-35 already does.
From the press release:
The backup oxygen systems in the F-35As kicked in during each incident
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SpudmanWPcompare apples to apples please.
I did the best I could.
There were multiple reports that the “bare aircraft” price was around $101 mil and this did not include the ~$50 mil per “customization” fees, laser targeting pod, or likely wing fuel tanks.
That same “bare aircraft”, ie Flyaway cost, of the F-35A is already under $100 mil and getting cheaper every day.
At the end of negotiations, India has arrived at a cost of Euro 91 million for each of the fighter versions of the Rafale aircraft and Euro 94 million for each of the trainer versions. This figure is for the bare aircraft without any weapons or India specific components.
91 mil Euro = $101 mil US
https://defencenext.com/2016/09/23/indias-rafale-deal-with-france-restores-its-regional-air-superiority/
Senior ministry of defence (MoD) officials, speaking anonymously after the signing, said the average cost of each Rafale was fixed at euro 91.7 million (Rs 686 crore). This included 28 single-seat fighters, each costing euro 91.07 million (Rs 681 crore); and eight twin-seat fighters priced at euro 94 million (Rs 703 crore).
Surprisingly, the contract for 36 fighters has no “options clause”. This means the Indian Air Force (IAF) must operate just two squadrons of this new fighter — the seventh type in the IAF inventory — or negotiate afresh for additional Rafales.
With 36 bare-bones aircraft costing euro 3.3 billion, the remaining euro 4.5 billion is for spares, logistics and weaponry, say MoD officials.
Of the total reported amount, €3.42 billion is for the cost of the platform; another €1.8 billion is for support and infrastructure supplies; €1.7 billion will be spent to meet India-specific changes on the aircraft; €710 million is the additional weapons package; and €353 million is the cost of performance-based logistics support, the MoD official said.
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-inks-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighter-jets
Total cost of the deal is €7.87 billion (US$ 8.82 billion) or approximately Rs 56,000 crores. The basic aircraft is said to cost about €3.4 billion, the balance covering weapons, simulators, spares, and performance-linked maintenance over five years ensuring 75 percent serviceability (ie, at least 27 aircraft are available for active duty at any time). The final price is considerably less than the €12 billion at which the inter-governmental negotiations is believed to have started, but a lot more expensive than the estimated $12 billion price tag for 126 bare bones Rafale aircraft at which the procurement process began in 2007. Even acknowledging that these prices are not really comparable since they refer to the aircraft variously with or without weaponry and other special customisations that India has apparently been demanding and finally got, as well as different degrees of technology transfer or indigenous manufacture, the final price tag is heavy indeed. It may not be the “mother of all deals,” but Rs1,200 crores per fighter with maintenance and add-ons is steep indeed.
http://newsclick.in/rafale-planes-many-flip-flops-and-expensive-deal
What is the cost of the Rafale for the Indian Air Force?
Just the bare single-seat Rafale will cost Euro 91 million each. The twin-seat trainer version (that can also be flown by just one pilot) would cost Euro 94.7 million each. India has contracted 24 single-seaters and eight twin-seaters.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/1160924/jsp/nation/story_109993.jsp
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