^^^^
Oh man, here we go again…Apparently, its far too much effort to realize that this frees the private sector to participate on their own in defence & is in fact, a well considered step, with vital significance especially for land systems such as tube artillery in which India is lagging behind.
And is being done in conjunction with keeping strategic & core programs within the hands of the DRDO & other agencies, programs such as the BMD & various other tactical EW & weapons programs.
See, the objective is to indigenize, and NOT to “free the private sector”. However, this scheme by the government will achieve the exact opposite of indigenization i.e. licence production will be freely carried out by private players now — only a shift from public sector players.
So, merely changing the players doesn’t change the scenario. I don’t have any concern about private sector; my concern is indigenization, which this policy doesn’t achieve.
Private sector is good at mass production. Efficient mass production rather : one which is timebound and without resource wastage. This is already happening with ISRO that has contracts with hundreds of small and medium private firms, that manufacture components for it’s rockets and satellites. ISRO of course, can’t be a factory line !
Now research on the other hand, has to have the government as a patron. Even Lockheed and Raytheon are funded by the Pentagon to do high-end research, and to hire consultants from academia to do research. This is what India’s Defence Ministry must emulate. For example, if a Tata or L&T work in partnership with DRDO, much more can be achieved.
Instead, what we have is the below :-
“Hold up your hands and repeat, “I promise not to bribe …. I promise not to take bribe …… ” “
Defence Procurement Procedure Amended to Encourage Indigenous Defence industry
(Source: Press Information Bureau India; issued October 29, 2009)
A new category of “Buy and Make (Indian)”
Under the existing procedure, if an item is categorized as ‘Buy and Make’, a production agency is identified by the government for transfer of technology. The process requires negotiations by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) with the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). Negotiations are carried out both for the “Buy” component as well as the “ToT” component. Past experience has shown that this has not helped in building up higher technical capabilities. The technology transfer has been essentially transfer of engineering skills for production of some of the non critical components. The critical items are invariably obtained from the foreign OEM. This method has also not encouraged formation of Joint Ventures (JVs) or alliances for co-production with Indian companies.
In my view, the above strikes the “nail on the head”. The so-called ToT is merely a euphemism for “Technician training on how to assemble the imported kits and how to operate the assembly machinery”.
The amendment in DPP-2008 introduces a new category named, ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ to overcome the above situation. If a project is selected by the Defence Acquisition Council to be categorized as ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’, Indian firms, both public and private, will play a lead role in negotiating and obtaining technology and co-production arrangements with the foreign OEMs. As such, the RFP will be issued to the Indian firms and not to the foreign OEM.
Indian firms identified to have requisite technical and financial capabilities would be required to submit project proposals indicating detailed roadmap for development and production of the items over its life cycle. They will also be required to spell out the proposed production arrangement with the foreign OEM along with the content of the T0T. The product so manufactured and supplied by the Indian company must have 50% indigenous content.
See, the definition or rather interpretation of “indigenous content” is very wrong. For example, newspapers report about the “indigenously manufactured” Su-30 MKIs. Arey, simply because the Russian manufacturing equipment is on Indian soil, using only labor and raw materials locally, it doesn’t make the Su-30 any indigenous. This is the same mistake committed by calling Nokia handsets or Hyundai cars assembled in Chennai, as “indigenous”. No doubt they are exported also, but people across the world buy them because its a Nokia or a Hyundai — and not by looking at the Made-in-India label. And the major chunk of the revenue goes back to Finnish and S. Korean shores, and very rightly so.
So, coming back to defence, private companies will do no more than setup assembly lines of foreign products in India, and tell the government, “Look all these components were manufactured locally. So, they’re indigenous”. When the fact is, they’re NOT.
Now even if the manufacturing equipment, of say, the various components of the Su-30 are designed & manufactured in India, the aircraft still remains Russian, because it is a Russian design. This argument can easily be extended to radars, avionics, engines, helicopters that are licence-produced by various public-sector firms in India.
The approach under this category is more akin to ‘Make’ procedure; albeit, the development and production would not be through indigenous R&D but through transfer of technology from the foreign OEM. This change in DPP-08 would enable pro-active participation of Indian industry in manufacturing defence products through co-production arrangements, such as JV, with foreign manufacturers and through transfer of technology.
The fallacy with the above statement is that it naively assumes that foreign companies will readily disclose or divulge their closest technological secrets merely by handing them a sum of money. The fact is, that be it single blisk technology for engines, or the “intricate” material science of AESA radars, or technology of seeker heads of missiles, NO foreign company in it’s right mind will ever share this technology with India, no matter what sum they’re given.
An ‘Integrity Pact’ is presently required to be signed between government and the vendors for all procurement schemes over Rs. 100 crores. This is a binding agreement between the government department and bidders for specific contracts in which the government promises that it will not accept bribes during the procurement process and bidders promise that they will not offer bribes. The existing provision provides for appointment of Independent Monitors (IM) in consultation with the Central Vigilance Commission. The role of Independent Monitors was, however, very limited and undefined.
“Promise they will not offer and accept bribes”. I think nothing could’ve been more childish and banal than this.
Besides, the language used is so forgiving and even “sanguine”, that it seems as though the offenders will get away with just a rap on their knucles. The language should’ve been more stringent like “…any attempt to bribe or subvert the normal acquisition process to gain undue favours would invite cancellation of the licence for a period of 15 years…”
All in all, this procedure merely shifts the licence production regime from the public sector to the private sector. There is no provision in it to foster or nurture our own Lockheeds or Thales in the making. The emphasis is on the same old “raga” of foreign JV and little else.
Licence production has a new name today : Joint venture.
I think the IAF can excel at the following activity, and nothing else.
‘Air warriors are becoming businessman’
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has found that a large number of its men are moonlighting in their spare time and turning to trade and business. {And you only found out now ? } In fact, the IAF has sent out a strongly worded letter warning all its officers against such activities and warning them even of harshest steps like being sacked from service if its directive is not followed.
The letter comes from Air Vice Marshal R Sitaraman, in charge of administration who has said that the instances have particularly increased in the last one year to aid monitoring the situation, the Air Vice Marshal has asked for a list of those who have been warned earlier. TIMES NOW have accessed the document written to all the Air Force officers.
It is an internal directive from Air Vice Marshal R Sitaraman dated on 18th August and it notes that the persons subject to Air Force Act, 1950 are not allowed to engage in ‘trade and business activities’. It goes on to say that the IAF head quarters has received a number of reports in the last one year pointing to breach of this rule by officers and warns the officers that such instances will be taken very seriously and stringent disciplinary and administrative action will be taken against those guilty to the extent that personnel found involved in business or trade even after that will be expelled from the IAF. {But why ? Aren’t messrs IAI, Thales, Dassault,etc. the friends of the IAF ? Aren’t the reins of IAF in their able, corporate hands ? }
In fact even the Union Defence Minister AK Antony has not refused the existence of such an attempt to cleanse the Air Force. When asked by TIMES NOW , he stopped just short of accepting the fact that the IAF was aware of its men turning to moonlighting and said that the force is fast in stamping out aberrations, as and when they arise.{ Okaay. Then, um.. how about cancelling Barak NG, LG, II, LRSAM, MRSAM for a start ? And when will these IAF officers begin to liason with DRDO for a change ? }
Reference :-
http://www.timesnow.tv/Air-warriors-are-becoming-businessman/articleshow/4330820.cms
That report says that has been sent to Russia , to quote it once again
The above is accurate. It’s only that HAL will negotiate with Sukhoi on behalf of IAF, as it has been doing unsuccessfully since Jan 2006.
IAF is under an “illusion” that it’s ASRs or whatever are being “fought for” by HAL on it’s behalf. In actuality there is nothing left in the PAK-FA or FGFA that will be IAF-specific. The only difference between the Russian PAK-FA and so-called Indian FGFA will be a twin-seat for FGFA.
However, I have a suspicion that IAF is aware of this fact also. Import-centric that it always has been, it will end up importing the FGFA anyway. Basic ASRs to quite an extent sabhi fighters mein hote hi hain; one only has to look for them.
Sure DRDO can promise the moon and they end up with joint development of Brahmos for hypersonic vehical.
Sir, hypersonic Brahmos is a different project altogether.
Actually, the IAF wants the moon, and DRDO does deliver; but if the goalposts (or, moonposts rather) are “unscrupulously” changed, DRDO cannot help it.
According to the ToI article posted by Austin, India and Russia, after protracted negotiations and some glitches, are now going full steam ahead to finalise the joint project for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Since FGFA is a Russian concept and the joint project is yet to be finalised, isn’t it logical to assume that ADA/HAL etc. could not have had any INPUT (be it design or development) into this project so far?
The above is well known. India has not yet formally entered the project, and has not yet funded a single nut-bolt in the PAK-FA, that will make it’s debut flight a few months from now.
Finally, Antony, on his part, has already declared India wants the FGFA’s development to be completed by 2016 to ensure IAF can begin inducting it by 2017. Now I dont know if this is also a part of ASR or not, but what sort of contribution would Indian aviation industry be able to make to this 5th generation 50:50 project in 6-7 years times, be it the development of Radar, Engines, Stealth, Avionics etc.?
None. HAL’s chairman Mr. Nayak has admitted that the Indian and Russian versions will have little or no difference. He was responding to some very pointed questions about Sukhoi’s chief Mr. Pogosyan bluntly stating that other than minor software differences, there will be no difference in the Russian PAK-FA and FGFA (thus implying little or no IAF-specific changes and nil workshare for HAL).
Now regarding the Indian FGFA , Indian contribution there could be quite a bit..ala MKI even more than that.
The above is inaccurate. As per this interview of HAL chief, Mr. Nayak, admitted that there will be little difference between the Indian FGFA and Russian PAK-FA. He was responding to a question about Sukhoi’s chief saying that other than minor software differences, the Russian PAK-FA and Indian FGFA will be identical.
Its clear that India is paying 50% of the money atleast for the Indian version and also will get some of the workshare which is most probably productionizing some components for the Russian and Indian version and also more advanced work on the Indian version.About the Russian only version ..as I said there is very little India can contribute if at all.
Please note that “Productionizing some components” amounts to licence production, and NOT workshare.
But in HAL’s new lexicon, licence production is called Joint Venture. This amounts to clear lying on it’s part.
A joint venture is of the kind when Northrop/Lockheed consulted Russia’s Yakovlev to buid the STOVL variant of F-35 JSF, and contracted UK’s BAe for EW suite.
The so-called FGFA does not even remotely have this kind of partnership. All HAL will do is pay a fee to Sukhoi to licence produce the same in India; however, on paper it will be called a “joint venture”, instead of licence production.
This reminds us of the Chinese FC-1, which Pakistan insists is a Joint-Venture. It has even given it it’s own name :- Joint Fighter 17 (JF-17), whereas the Chinese are content calling it Fighter China 1 (FC-1). Other than funding it, and buying an assembly line at PAC Kamra, Pak has nil contribution in it.
Something similar with the FGFA :- local Indian name is different from the Russian one. No visible Indian scientific input, though the Indian side insists that it is a “joint venture”.
Is this a phenomenon pervading the sub-continent ?
Though the Indian FGFA will be based upon the single-seater Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA being currently developed by Russia, it will be built to IAF specifications. IAF, for instance, is also keen on a twin-seater version of the FGFA.
What “IAF specifications” ? Other than a twin-seater what else is IAF-specific in that ? Radar ? Engines ? Stealth ? Avionics ? Anyway, we’ve seen that Sukhoi will design and construct the twin-seater, and not HAL.
As per the latest interview by HAL chairman Mr. Nayak, there is no difference between the Indian FGFA and the Russian PAK-FA. He was responding to a question when asked that Mr. Pogosyan of Sukhoi has said that leave aside some software differences for weapons integration, the Indian and Russian versions are identical.
So, where is the question of “IAF’s specifications” ?
“FGFA discussions with Russia are progressing quite satisfactorily…they are on track. The Russian FGFA prototype should make its first flight sometime early next year,” said IAF vice-chief Air Marshal P K Barbora.
Barbora sir, we all know that the Russian PAK-FA’s flight is imminent. Can you
please tell us what is the IAF’s stand on the PAK-FA vis-a-vis IAF’s ASRs being met and HAL’s actual workshare ?
IAF, in fact, recently finalised the technical requirements for its FGFA, which will have long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, and submitted them to Russia.
IAF wants the FGFA to have “a very high degree of network centricity” as well as multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems — optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors. Stealth, with a “minimal” radar tracking signature, will be an important requirement.
Firstly, the IAF submitted these requirements to HAL first, which in turn submitted them to Sukhoi. HAL wants to licence produce the FGFA at any cost, and so is negotiating on behalf of IAF with Sukhoi.
Secondly, all of the above is standard fitment in any 4.5 gen. fighter jet also. The above can be found in well known promotional or brochure material of fighter jets.
Ofcourse if MCA can design from scratch by ADA they can propose a fighter that can travel in space fight and land back 😉
For that, DRDO’s AVATAR is already being developed.
Abhimanyu , we are saying the same thing , but the way you are trying to put it is , if IOC passes and FOC gets delayed blame it on the IAF
Let me repeat it , IOC and FOC will be jointly taken by ADA/IAF , IOC will get the basic flight paramaters , basic weapons testing done.
I think IoC itself is the rigorous validation of the ASRs in about 2000 flight-tests. It is given by the manufacturer.
FoC is the air-force specific certificate. Suppose if USAF decides to purchase Tejas as a training/enemy simulation platform; then it will have to pass USAF’s FoC equivalent certificate before being inducted. It can ask ADA for some minor modifications at that stage.
Even Dhruv has to undergo some European certification, before it can be sold to European and North American markets. This is pending. But it already has HAL’s IoC, and the Ecuador Air Force is satisfied with it’s own tests in the Andies mountains, and didn’t ask for the European or any third party certificate before purchasing 9 Dhruvs.
Sure you can nitpick it and make it look like its just a routine flirty affair with FGFA.
But the IAF , HAL and GOI interviews on this they have decided to go for FGFA as their 5th Gen Fighter.
IAF has only expressed hope that FGFA will be introduced in the IAF by 2017.
However, the talks between HAL and Sukhoi are almost stalled (Fakhruddin says there are differences between HAL & Sukhoi) . These negotiations have been going on for almost 4 years now, without success.
There is no need to do something from scratch , as there is nothing great ADA will come from scratch that FGFA will not be able to match.
There is no point duplicating , just because there is something to do from scratch , least of all a complicated project like 5th Gen fighter.
In the same way, there is nothing the FGFA will provide that MCA won’t have. Thus, FGFA will be a redundant addition in the IAF. So, why pursue it ?
The single biggest disadvantage of FGFA is that the IAF wanted to be on the design board from the very start. But Russia has gone alone and completed the PAK-FA, without any IAF or HAL inputs till date. So, will the IAF get all that it wants from FGFA ? Will all it’s ASRs be met, or will have to compromise ? Will a jet designed for the Russian Air Force’s ASRs, necessarily be suitable for the IAF too ?
Austin, the FoC is granted by the user Air Force after IoC is granted by the manufacturer. The IoC itself rigorously verifies and validates the ASRs laid by the Air Force. After that, the manufacturer’s job is done for the most part. The FoC is used to getting acquainted with the fighter and formulating tactics around it. It is true that the Air Force can ask for minor “tweaks” at this point, but these are not “defects” or shortcomings of any kind.
India has not yet formally entered the FGFA, and IAF has not specified any ASRs to Sukhoi. IAF has just communicated it’s ASRs to HAL, and HAL has been negotiating with Sukhoi (rather unsuccessfully) since Jan 2006.
It is a fact that IAF’s primary requirement was to be on board a 5th gen. project from scratch, or from drawing board. But now it is too late. The IAF has a chance in the MCA, which still exists as sketches on paper. This is a golden opportunity for IAF to mould a fighter from start, for the first time in it’s 77 year history.
Tejas completes test flight in Saurashtra region
The Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), ‘Tejas’ continued its quest for achieving Initial Operational Capability (IOC) by the end of 2010. To achieve this goal, a pair of Tejas single seat fighters supported by a multi-disciplinary trial team, operated from an Indian Air Force airbase in the South Western Air Command area of responsibility for five weeks.
This was the first time that the Tejas aircraft have operated away from home base of Bangalore for so long.{The first squadron must be based in a frontline base along with Pak border, or Tibet border, instead of Tamil Nadu}
Two prototypes took part in the trials, the Prototype Vehicle-3 (PV3) and Limited Series Production-2 (LSP-2). The trials entailed flight envelope expansion in various configurations, as well as Air to Ground weapon delivery trials in different modes of weapon delivery.
The aircraft successfully demonstrated its ability to tackle targets which are designated visually by the pilot. After this phase, the Tejas will be able to take on targets whose parameters in terms of location and altitude are fed to the on-board navigation and attack computer. The target does not even have to be visible to the pilot at the point of delivery, according to the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO).
The flight trials were conducted by the flight test crew of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), who deployed test pilots, flight test engineers and instrumentation specialists for the task.
The support provided by the personnel of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)- the manufacturers of the aircraft, ensured that this indigenous fighter aircraft was able to take to the skies regularly, said DRDO.{Finally, the problem of a lack of test pilots has been addressed.}
The above is “heartening” news. It’s flight envelop with various weapons configs. is being expanded (nay, exploded). It is finally turning into a war machine. As guaranteed by Dr. Subramanyam in Feb. 2009, the Tejas is all set to achieve IoC by 2010, and squadron service soon thereafter.
This, along with the news that IAF will indeed excercise it’s option of deploying many more squadrons of Akash SAMs indicates that IAF is indeed moving towards greater indigenization. However, the decision to deploy more Akash squads. may well have been motivated by a recent “spurt” in efforts to re-equip the north-eastern sector, which in-turn has been motivated by “sabre-rattling” from China of late.
Let me focus in one part only.
What exactly did Hal or DRDO or India learn from LCA?
-Avionics (besides RWR and some FBW software)
-Radar (Israeli)
-Composites (Italian)
-Engine (US- assistance from rest of the world that turned Kaveri into maybe ship thrust)
-Weapons (Russians sofar)
-Ejection seat (UK)
-Cockpit (Probably Israel or France)
See, in avionics Tejas has the indigenous core avionics mission computer, radar processors, RWR, and radar jammers to name a few. These avionics are also used on Su-30 MKI. Software for FBW is indigenous; Lockheed’s consultancy was taken to test it and integrate it on an F-16 Vista simulator in 1990s (these facilities were absent in India then). This was completed indigenously after sanctions following the nuclear tests.
Composite layout software (Autolay) that was developed for Tejas, has been exported to Airbus Industrie for their A-380 airliner. It beat other global majors in a tender process. Tejas today reportedly has the highest percentage of composites amongst 4.5 gen. fighters.
Kaveri till date has been developed entirely indigenously. To achieve further thrust, a JV with France’s Snecma company has been sought.
An indigenous canopy severance system has been developed by ARDE and certified by Martin Baker (news report). This is unique globally.
Cockpit is an all-glass system, for which Samtel company of India will develop the panels, though for the TD and PV stages, Thales of France was the contractor.
Reference :-
1) http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3298353
Now IAF is looking for new AJT ,this is an opportunity for ADA and a low risk project , instead of Importing yet another AJT . ADA should develop one inhouse , compared to the flight of fancy MCA , the new gen AJT is more of doable in 5 – 8 years schedule.
Note that even though we have NAL’s Hansa ab-initio trainer and HAL’s Sitara IJT, the IAF for reasons unknown, prefers the import route.
Regarding Mirage upgrade , both sides will come to some final agreement , IAF badly needs mirage and needs to get it upgraded . Dassult needs business and M2K is good money.
As ante_climax posted above, the deal is nearly off because the price quoted by Dassault is very high.
Not really, IAF is mature and does not buy flight of fancy from R&D and scientist.
In my view, the ADA has delivered and the IAF is squarely responsible in dereliction of it’s responsibility in co-operating with ADA and taking over the project management of Tejas. By this, it has jeopardized the security of the country to an extent.
ADA has to prove the Tejas Mk1 is good as a operational fighter by passing FOC and then get the definative Mk2 off the drawing board and get the trials and induction done asap.
The above is inaccurate. FoC is always given by the Air Force. ADA has proven it can construct a fighter jet as per the specifications of IAF. Even Kaveri meets specifications laid out in 1989. However, the ADA/DRDO are always running on a “steepening treadmill” because the IAF demands a “picture perfect” fighter jet from start and so keeps demanding new inputs midway.
The only impediment in Tejas currently is top speed, which is in turn a result of increased weight over the years. This will be handled in Mk.2.
snecma was not willing to give in key technologies and I believe a team of DRDO rejected the offer , Snecma wants to make good money out of royalty and not willing to share key technologies.
The above is inaccurate. DRDO has decided to go ahead with the Snecma-JV despite IAF’s objections, because it disagrees with the IAF’s contention that there will be no ToT (but it has agreed to install a GE or Eurojet in Tejas).
Both ADA and IAF should/will work in co-ordination to get IOC and then FOC , FOC is the key benchmark for Tejas mk1 and ADA/IAF will be working jointly.
Its better ADA focus on getting FOC of Tejas Mk1 done and get the definative Mk2 off drawing board to production and Naval Teas from development to IAC.
Please note that FoC is granted by the user Air Force. ADA’s job ends at IoC.
Yes they can get all that small team and start work , once PAK-FA gets going , two years down the line the small team will dissapear and IAF will rightly put its fund and effort on FGFA and what ever that small team manages to do ( if it ever does ) that would get reflected on FGFA
Arey, what is “right” about FGFA ? It’s main USP that it is a “joint development” between India and Russia is absolutely false. It is a fighter made as per the needs and requirements of the Russian Air Force. IAF will tweak it’s ASRs and tactics to accomodate this fighter — as it has always done.
IAF wanted to be on board the FGFA from the drawing board. Instead, the PAK-FA is ready, and will take flight in the coming months—without an “iota” of IAF’s QSRs. This can be undone if it joins the MCA, which it can mould from “scratch”.
Well you never know what could be the sticking point in the negotiation for a ubber new project.
Compare that to the more than one half decade to negotiate the AJT Hawk , 5 years for M2K upgrade and going , 8 years for Groshkov and still negotiating …….the list here is endless.
It must be noted that all of the above projects are now regretted by the armed forces. A Hawk crashed, and IAF has sent a new RFP to other manufacturers (curiously including Hawk also); Gorshkov has already been “slammed” by the CAG. As per this news report, the Mirage upgrade offer is on the verge of being cancelled because of pricing.
I think ADA/DRDO should give up the idea to build MCA and stop conning IAF with yet another Flight of Fancy , and keep its focus to make Tejas Mk1 , MK2 and Naval Tejas a success in the IAF and work with IAF as they are doing rightly and deliver it on schedule and under budget.
In my view, the IAF itself has “shot itself in the foot” by being intransigent, and stubborn on the Tejas. Leaving aside setting the project back by 4-5 years, it has not even come forward to support the Tejas Mk.1, which even in it’s current form is replacement enough for the MiG-21.
IAF also stalled a JV between GTRE and Snecma to enhance the Kaveri — an engine built exclusively for Tejas’ fuselage — to call an international bid for engines, that would invariably result in going back to the drawing board to redesign the fuselage. The fact that Eurojet claims that it’s engine would require minimal redesign of fuselage is another matter (and we hope it is true).
As mentioned in Mr. Chengappa’s paper as far back as 2005, the DRDO’s work is mostly done and the IAF must now be the project manager of the Tejas, for it’s own benefit.
It is billion times better to opt for a 5th Gen project on a 50-50 risk sharing basis.
The IAF has very wisely deputed a small team to start work on the conceptual MCA with the DRDO. It is hoped that the IAF stops chasing a “pie in the sky” with the PAK-FA, in which there is nil Indian input and a risk of Russian arm-twisting, going by their past record.
MOSCOW: India and Russia will launch the joint fifth generation fighters by year end…[/quote]
We may observe what is exactly mentioned in the news report below.
The protocol provides for completion of formalities by the year end to launch the joint designing, development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft project.
The “completion of formalities” is the ongoing negotiations between the HAL and Sukhoi. These have been going on since 2006 and some past “euphoria” has already passed.
Indo-Russian Agreement soon on PAK-FA .. 8 Feb, 2007
India’s role in Sukhoi project questioned.. June, 2006
The 2009 deadline is also similar to these past deadlines of 2007 and 2008. It is clear that the negotiations are reaching nowhere, as there are very serious questions on what exactly will India contribute to the PAK-FA, other than finance. Entering a project so late, when it’s first prototype is about to debut, makes any talk of Indian scientific contribution meaningless.
I think IAF must abandon this PAK-FA, and commit fully to the indigenous MCA only.
I think ADA/HAL should focus on Tejas right now and focus on scheduled induction of Tejas Mk1 and R&D/Testing/Production of Tejas Mk2/Naval Tejas these two project itself will keep ADA busy for a decade and then they can further develop Tejas Mk3 or unmanned version
There is no point doing too many things and diverting resources on other project like MCA , when Tejas is the need of hour and will be the need of IAF/IN for the next 2 decades
See, I’ve already posted a research paper by Mr. Chengappa in which he’s suggested that ADA’s work on Tejas is nearly done. Now, the project management towards final completion must be taken over by the IAF.
ADA can get involved in FGFA along with HAL and work on developing 5th Gen Aircraft with Sukhoi as risk sharing partner and contribute where it can.
The above is inaccurate. It is a contract between HAL and Sukhoi (if at all that contract fructifies). ADA, NAL, DRDO etc. are not involved in FGFA modalities.
The MCA in the present form should be cancelled , there is no need to reinvent the wheel when FGFA is something IAF has made a decision to go for with a established risk sharing partner.
Sir ji, IAF has decided to commit with MCA (news report posted earlier) — the FGFA agreement has not yet been signed. HAL and Sukhoi are still arguing over how much miniscule work HAL could receive.
There is no guarantee that this contract will fructify. And even if it does, the CAG will “maul” the MoD, HAL and IAF to shreds, because it is very clear that it is anything but a “joint development”. It is a licence purchase agreement only.
I am more inclined to believe the HAL chairman who has stated that we will be equal partner in FGFA not more not less.
Please note that Mr. Nayak also said that he doesn’t want to comment on Mr. Mikhail Pogosyan’s comments.
I would rather believe the chairman of the creator of PAK-FA (which is going to fly soon), than the chairman of a firm, which hasn’t even formally entered the project yet. Mr. Pogosyan has implicitly said, India will have ZERO input on PAK-FA i.e. except software differences to integrate western missiles, there is no difference between PAK-FA and FGFA. This is even lesser contrib than Su-30 MKI.
There is no point funding ADA on a promise trip to moon when they have yet to deliver a FOC Tejas Mk1 to IAF.
See, ADA’s job is nearly over. After the radar is integrated on LSP-3, and some avionics upgrades, it is upto HAL and IAF to take forward the completion of IoC. ADA is well poised to begin work on the MCA.
ADA/HAL would be kept busy and focus on delivering the Tejas Mk1 and then the definative Tejas MK2 and later a advanced variant of Tejas Mk3 , the work is enough to keep them busy for ~ 1 and half decade.
The above is inaccurate. As far back as 2005, it has been suggested that the management of Tejas must be taken over by the IAF, as ADA’s job is only to innovate and demonstrate the technology. This, the IAF has failed to do which is why the Tejas has been delayed.
IN PERSPECTIVE
(Problems of LCA Management)By Bidanda M Chengappa
The DRDO has completed its contribution to the LCA project and the IAF, as the user, should take it over. Speculation that Mr P S Subramanyam will take over as the new Programme Director (PD) of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and manage the 20-year-old Light Combat Aircraft Project makes one wonder about the absence of a full-time Director General (DG) for the ADA. Today the Scientific Adviser (SA) to the Defence Minister and the Director General of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Mr M Natarajan, is also the DG of the ADA in a part-time capacity. The SAs have always concurrently held the position of the DG- ADA and thereby denied the programme full attention, so necessary at this stage. Perhaps the perquisites available to the DG-ADA with foreign trips and financial control over a big budget have made the SAs reluctant to make it an independent appointment.
Mr Natarajan is a tank man who had earlier steered the Main Battle Tank 90 ‘Arjun’ programme as the Director, Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, Avadi. As an IIT qualified mechanical engineer, Mr Natarajan has all along been land-oriented in his outlook having dealt with tank technology. While scientists are good at design and development they need not necessarily make phenomenal project managers.Background Lacking
Unlike operational military pilots, the scientists tend to lack an operational aviation background, so necessary to comprehend the nuances of aircraft development. The only exceptions are Israeli defence scientists who by virtue of being ‘citizen soldiers’ have an element of military operational orientation that supplements their core competence in design and development of weapon systems.
The only DG-ADA full time so far was Dr S R Valluri briefly for under a year in 1985. Thereafter the dynamic and determined Dr Kota Harinarayana remained the Programme Director (PD) of the ADA for 15 years. The disadvantage between a part-time and a full-time DG-ADA for the LCA programme is evident. A case in point is that of Mr Ashok Baweja, the present Chairman of HAL, who was earlier the first full-time Director of Design and Development (D&D) of HAL. Till then for over a decade there was no full-time Director of D&D except for concurrent appointments. Mr Baweja, while in that appointment, managed to accomplish the certification of the Advanced Light Helicopter –– both civil and military versions and Intermediate Jet Trainer. He also accelerated the LCA programme. Similarly, a full-time DG-ADA for the LCA programme would remain focussed on the programme and push through obstacles better as the appointment is equivalent to the rank of a Secretary to the Government of India. A programme director in contrast is only of the rank of a joint secretary (now raised to additional secretary) and is at a disadvantage within the hierarchy conscious technocracy in New Delhi. In the mid-1990s, Air Marshal P M Ramachandran (Retd), was earmarked for appointment as the DG-ADA, but for inexplicable reasons it did not materialise. The Air Marshal as a competent test pilot may have successfully driven the programme to fruition. Instead the PD-ADA, Dr Kota Harinarayana, was elevated to the position of a Distinguished Scientist in January 1996 equivalent to a special secretary. In view of these considerations the IAF is not in the driver’s seat and lacks control which explains why it has not yet put its money into the LCA programme.
Clearly the DRDO has completed its contribution to the LCA project and at this stage, therefore the IAF, as the user, should assign one of its men to assume the role of a project manager to drive the project towards production. Unlike the IAF, the Indian Navy has always had a tight control over its R&D agencies with higher indigenisation levels compared to the air force or army. For instance, the prestigious Advanced Technology Vessel Project to develop a nuclear submarine is always headed by a three-star ranked Vice Admiral and not a DRDO scientist. Operational experience is critical to the project. The recent appointment of an Air Marshal as an Adviser to the DG-ADA is only notional in nature.
Project Management
In the Western industrialised countries, which have perfected the art of project management, the R&D agencies only design and develop armament technologies. And the military as the user agency has the highest stakes in such weapon development projects because it contributes directly to their operational capabilities. {IAF has never learnt this; all they know is to float global tenders and import.}
Hence the military assumes the role of a project manager and drives the industry towards production of the weapon system. However in the LCA project, the DRDO is the fund manager, project manager and monitoring authority and hence should not become a non-starter owing to the politics of military aeronautics between the DRDO, HAL and the IAF.[/COLOR] The LCA has spent Rs 4 crores of the tax-payers’ money and hence the project should be managed with care. The right man for the right job is important.
Case to point is MCA project , since a decision to purchase MMRCA and to co-develop FGFA is taken , funding MCA will find little or no support with IAF atleast not in the present form as a stealthy manned twin engined fighter.
I think why can’t the reverse be done i.e. abandon the fruitless negotiations of FGFA and commit to the MCA ? It can be done since a decision to support the MCA has already been taken by IAF, and the FGFA agreement is nowhere in sight even after 3 years of “negotiations”.
Arey, how much do you negotiate for a plane that is entirely Russian ? Don’t we just sign a cheque and begin licence assembly ? So, why these “negotiations” between HAL and Sukhoi ? Because Mr. Pogosyan of Sukhoi has already stated — much to the “chagrin” of Mr. Nayak of HAL — that PAK-FA and FGFA are identical machines, save for a few bits of software. But HAL wants to make it look like a JV; make it seem as though had it not been for HAL, the FGFA would’ve been impossible. So these 3.5 years have been spent in trying to convince Sukhoi over what tid-bits can they actually tinker on, so that they can prepare a report-card to show the media/CAG/public on what is their “contribution” in FGFA.
In short, a licence production agreement is being disguised as a “Joint Development”. As per Sukhoi itself, there will be NO Indian inputs in the FGFA.
Since FGFA decision is already taken at political and military level , it is important to involve HAL and ADA into this so that they learn what they can and assimilate technologies and production know how in house to develop a 5th Gen fighter in the next 2 decade.
See, licence production rights are not equivalent to technology transfer. Assembling the FGFA in India with imported Russian parts and components does NOT amount to ToT or any learning curve.
I really see no need to develop yet another 5th gen minus manned fighter just to support ADA , when FGFA is something they should get involved with and UCAV is something they should look ahead for.
I think the FGFA must be abandoned, and full support must be given to ADA’s indigenous MCA. There is no necessity to be a “cash cow” for Sukhoi.
The M-MRCA Contest
Capability for the IAF, an opportunity for India
By Adm. Arun Prakash (retd)Moreover, the armed forces are now reasonably sure that neither the DRDO nor the defence PSUs are interested in working alongside them to achieve common goals. Therefore, forecasting operational imperatives, and seeking to develop timely capabilities is not a pursuit that the three Services have, so far, found productive; unlike others world-wide.
Sir, I may disagree with you here. The opposite can also be said to be true i.e. the armed forces have often found to be non-cooperative with DRDO. Examples abound primarily in some of the most strategic projects like Arjun and Tejas. If the armed forces think all they have to do is just give a list of requirements and sit back, they’re mistaken. Also, for the sake of long-term indigenization, even if the indigenously made equipment does not match equivalent western equipment in all ways, then too an effort can be made to induct.
There is a difference between dated equipment and obsolescent equipment.
but the MoD needs to guard against any attempts, by DRDO or other agencies, to circumvent the due processes.
I don’t know how DRDO “circumvents” the process, but I think it’s attempt to develop something for the first time involves R&D and none of the DPP processes — this may be percived by the armed forces as “circumvention”.
The indigenous Tejas LCA, which was to have been the MiG-21 replacement, has suffered huge slippages, further upsetting the IAF force-planning process.
Sir, please note that the IAF too is directly responsible for about half a decade of delays on the Tejas. From delaying the go-ahead for 3 years in 1993, to arguing with ADA over which firm to choose for the FBW consultancy, to suddenly demanding changes in the wing-loading in 2004 (thus forcing ADA to go back to drawing board), to an 11th hour demand in increasing the engine thrust — the IAF has not exactly been a hand-to-shoulder collaborator on the Tejas; more like an indifferent and aloof spectator.
The Pak Air Force is slated to receive 36 J-10s and aims to acquire 10-12 squadrons’ worth (200-250) of the lightweight multi-role JF-17 ‘Thunder’. The Thunder, a collaborative project of the Chengdu Aircraft Industries and the Pak Aeronautical Complex, will become the future mainstay of the PAF.
Sir, these acquisitions by Pak are long term and will take atleast 15 years to fructify fully. By that time, the IAF too would have increased it’s squadron strength.
For one, M/s Dassault Aviation were now producing the more advanced and definitive Mirage-2000-5 version, which was a substantially different machine. They were also on the verge of closing down the Mirage-2000 production line, unless some firm orders were forthcoming soon. Moreover, the MoD was aware of these factors and consistently refused to treat the IAF proposal as merely a ‘repeat order on a past supplier’ envisaged in the ‘Fast Track Procedure’ of DPP 2006. They insisted that since this was going to be a new aircraft, the IAF should follow the standard process of drawing up an ASR and then floating an RFP.
Displaying misplaced optimism in the face of steadfast MoD opposition, the IAF persevered and, possibly, lost a precious two-three years in its futile quest for additional Mirages. In hindsight, following due processes, in this time-frame the Service could have gone well down the M-MRCA acquisition route by now, and mitigated its problems.
I was under the impression earlier that the IAF infact delayed sending the RFP to Dassault. This is because SP Tyagi once “lamented” that, he regretted that the RFP was not sent in his tenure. From the above, it is clear that the Defence Ministry was solely responsible for the delay in the acquisition of Mirage-2000-V.
The recently retired Air Chief is quoted by a magazine as having summed up M-MRCA request for proposals in the following words: “Broadly speaking, we want a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease. We want the aircraft to have adequately long-range and endurance to meet our operational requirements with additional mid-air refuelling capability and ease of maintenance and low life-cycle costs.” Additionally, the IAF has indicated its preference for the active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar, in preference to the earlier less capable mechanically scanning sensors.
Intriguingly, and perhaps for geo-political reasons, the RFP seems to have cast its net too wide; including two distinctly different categories of aircraft in the same competition. Firstly, new 4th generation machines (MiG-35, Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale) have got mixed up with aircraft which first flew in the 1970s and now are in the ‘sunset phase’ of their service life (F-16 and F/A-18). Secondly, single-engined lightweight fighters in the USD 30-50 million cost range (F-16, Gripen and MiG-35) will be vying with larger twin-engined heavy-weight fighters in the USD 60-120 million range (F/A-18, Rafale and Eurofighter).
I agree with this view. Firstly, the term “medium weight” is quite subjective and given that the 16 ton Gripen is vying with the 31 ton F-18 Super Hornet, the IAF itself is undecided what it means by the so-called medium weight jet.
Ex-Chief SP Tyagi once said that the MRCA would “fill the gap” between the “light” Tejas and “heavy” Su-30 MKI. However, the Su-30 MKI is in reality a mini-bomber if we go by the weight standards of western fighter planes. This is because of a peculiarity of Russian designs, that tend to be much larger and heavier than their equivalent western counterparts. As an example, the Su-30 MKI’s American equivalent is the F-15E Strike Eagle, which is nearly 3 tons lighter than it, as also smaller in size.
Thus, the IAF can reconsider it’s light-medium-heavy doctrine.
Sunday, October 11, 2009
Indian Defence Minister Off To Russia, MTA JV Agreement On AnvilThe long-awaited agreement to incorporate a joint venture company to develop and build the Ilyushin-214 based Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA)
From the above, we have very subtly finally come to know that the MTA is actually an original design of Ilyushin i.e. Ilyushin-214. This never took off during the early 1990s, as the company like many other Russian aviation firms went nearly-bankrupt after the fall of the Soviet Union.
Actually this was the very same curve that a fledgling start-up called NAL (National Aeronautics Limited) took in the mid-1990s.
After the USSR collapsed, a number of Russian aerospace firms were given financial support by American and European firms. A little-known firm called Myasischev entered a JV with NAL to manufacture their Duet design. However, due to a chronic cash-crunch, Myasischev left in 1994 itself, after providing basic paper designs to NAL. This aircraft today is the Saras.
NAL’s composite technology developed for exclusively Tejas, is used in Saras also (as also in Airbus-A380).
After the initial steps of Hansa and Saras, NAL has embarked on a 90 seater Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA). NAL has very clearly stated, that it will go solo in this venture, with partnerships only when needed (as in Tejas’ GE engines). The preliminary design is ready, and studies have been conducted.
Thus, it is totally unclear why HAL is “haggling” with Ilyushin, when they can put somewhat more effort to collaborate with NAL on the RTA. It is amply clear that the MTA is nothing more than some near-abandoned design that Ilyushin is reviving at HAL’s insistence and funding.
Antony is also all set to put down a hard stipulation that that the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), being developed in cooperation with Russia, should complete its full development phase by 2016, and inductions into the Indian Air Force must begin by 2017. Going by Russia’s new penchant for delays and fantasy projections, it is not surprising that he will emphasise this point on at the commission meeting itself.[/B]
There is no guarantee that Russians will oblige. Russia has hiked the price of Gorshkov by 150%, delayed the MiG-29 upgrades, as well as T-90s.
On this highly experimental and debut project, they’ll have enough excuses to not honour the timeline of 2016.
It is because of these reasons that indigenous development needs a “fillip”. Even though studies on the indigenous 5th gen. MCA have been commenced, the IAF, MoD and HAL seem totally non-committal and even ignorant of it.
The argument that IAF-needs-it-now-and-inexperienced-DRDO-will-take-much-longer has been provided ad nauseum since the inception of DRDO. If this goes on, then IAF will perenially be dependent on foreign hardware only. At some stage this cycle has to be “broken”. The IAF can atleast this once, “hedge a bet” against time, and commit itself fully to the MCA instead. The manner in which the MRCA RFP was delayed for 7 years and sent shows how “urgent” these acquisitions really are; the IAF can definitely take a time-bound risk on the MCA, instead of yet another Russian import.
The co-development and co-production of the FGFA with Sukhoi Design Bureau Russia has been progressing, with several rounds of discussion already completed to finalize the technical requirements.
The above mentioned “technical requirements” are on paper only. Sukhoi has clarified that other than software, the PAK-FA and the so-called FGFA are identical (with nil Indian input). These protracted negotiations by HAL are just to “squeeze” whatever little tampering it can do on the PAK-FA, so that it can claim to Indian media/ public on how much “development work” it has done. They will throw some lengthy technical terms to make it sound as though really 50% work on the PAK-FA/FGFA was thanks to HAL.
The extension of the existing India-Russia Long Term Inter-Governmental Agreement on the programme for Military Technical Cooperation for a further 10 years, from 2011 to 2020, will be the main focus of discussions during the meeting of the commission. India and Russia had concluded an agreement in December 1988 which envisaged a programme for defence cooperation between the two countries up to the year 2010.
At this rate, Mr. Antony may easily seek extensions upto 2050, and Russia will be happy to “milch” the Indian defence “cow”. The Defence Ministry has thus clearly failed to meet the target of 70% indigenization as laid out in 1997.