Flogger wrote:

“As you can see Capedani either Western or Russian sources confirmed the news”

Flogger,
Where did they confirm the news on that particular Apache being shot down by an SA-7?

Two of those links are from 2006!

The apache crashed on 31 Mar 2003.

“84-24201 of C Company/1-3rd Avn crashes on landing in Iraq, injuring the two pilots.”

From this and the spin that the Russian website puts on it you have it shot down by an SA-7. No consideration that the Apache might have come down in a sand storm in brown out conditions due to actions other than ‘enemy’.

The JP233 has long gone from the RAF fleet. No GR.4 carried the munition. The JP233 went in 1998 from RAF service.

Flogger wrote:

“So we have one AV-8B accident , two AH-64 accidents uhmmm sounds like too many accidents in Wartime, do not you think so?”

Absolutely not! Your naivety is simply stunning. Flogger do you actually read Air Forces Monthly? Are you aware that they have an attrition section? Flogger do a bit of research. Add up all those missions and sorties flown during Allied Force and by the nature of the beast you are going to get attrition through accidents. It is exactly the same during peacetime training missions. Aircraft crash in and out of combat zones. Military flying by the nature of the beast can be dangerous – resulting in attrition.

Flogger wrote:

[I]”You are very selective in your Harrier accidents,” [/I]

OK Flogger, you seem to have all the answers in regards to Harrier accidents. From your research please inform me the serials of those Harriers.
The Harrier fuel tank filmed in April is clearly an RAF Harrier example. Can you provide me with a list of RAF Harrier GR.7s lost post Allied Force? Will you now be claiming that Harrier T.10s were flying combat missions from Italy? Please explain yourself?

Flogger wrote:

“also Nato reported an F-16 knocked down by an “Engine accident” please your list is selective in order to avoid questions.You are avoiding an AV-8B harrier accident which claims no enemy fire was the cause of the lost, several Helicopters among them two AH-64, yes they were operating near Serbia but no Serbian fire shot them down yeah yeah, please those accidents are quit suspicious in War time. besides the Serbians claim several Tornadoes and F-16s, yes TEEJ your list is quit selective because including several suspicious “accidents”

So the Serbs claim several Tornadoes do they? Those Tornadoes that are not missing from the fleet perhaps? Tornadoes that simply combat-jettisoned external fuel tanks over Yugoslavia. The Serbs showed the RAF Tornado fuel tanks on video and claimed that the aircraft crashed within Serbia. Suprise, suprise they couldn’t come up with the wreckage of that RAF Tornado now isn’t it? No PWs, no repatriated bodies of aircrew etc.

Flogger wrote:

Here is an excerpt from an Interview to a NATO Colonel named Freytag from AV-8B accident :

-“As earlier mentioned, we lost 1 aircraft during yesterday’s operation. At 2.20 this morning, local Brussels time, an F16CJ experienced an engine failure 18 kilometres east of Kosluk whilst returning from a mission over Yugoslavia. The cause of the engine failure is under review. The pilot was recovered safely and is now at a NATO base. An AV8B Harrier aircraft was also lost in a training accident. This aircraft was not assigned to NATO but was supporting NATO’s operation”-

See it was an interview, ah but we always have to believe accidents eh?

See they claim an F-16 lost was an accident do you see that is the same F-16 later was acknowledged as the shot down because they said the wreckage is in Serbia

-” Yes, I repeat it was engine failure but as we of course are interested in what caused the engine failure, we are still reviewing this incident. It will be difficult because we don’t have the wreckage, it is on FRY soil. It is still under review.”-

Question for you why do not acknowledge from the begining it was shot down?

Do you think the F-16 pilot had amnesia?

So everything has to be black and white for you at a press conference? All the facts at the finger tips of the briefer and this is what you present as evidence? LOL!. Colonel Freytag even got the variant of the F-16 wrong. It wasn’t a CJ but a CG. Will that also be part of your conspiracy. Will it lead you to believe that an F-16CJ was also downed on the 2nd May 1999?

Flogger I take it that you have actually listened to the audio tape of F-16CG, serial 88-0550? His callsign was Hammer 34. At the time the briefer had limited information, but to you that is a major conspiracy theory in itself. Do you think that the briefer went to the pilot and went through his flight step by step? The Colonel even stated in his brief that the cause of the engine failure is under review! The pilot himself later gave a brief in which he recounts coming under fire from Serb air defences and taking a hit.

F-16CG, serial 88-0550, took shrapnel damage from an SA-3 fired by a battery commanded by Lt. Col. Dani Zoltan. The F-16’s engine flamed out some time later due to the warhead damage and the pilot couldn’t restart it resulting in his ejection.

Audio from the events of 2nd May 1999:

http://www.1stguns.de/support/f_16_hit_serbia.mp3

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2000/n02172000_20002172.html

Flogger, if you had done some research on the subject then you would have found out that the pilot of F-16CG, serial 88-0550 – Callsign “Hammer 34” recounted his story to an audience during a DoD’s annual personnel recovery conference, sponsored by the Defense POW-Missing Personnel Office. Hammer 34 and his rescuers told their stories on the condition of anonymity. If you listen to the audio which was made in the clear and available to all radio enthusiasts with receivers in the region then you will note “Hammer, did you take a hit?”. This is right at the start of the recorded transmission.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2000/n02172000_20002172.html

“Hammer 34” told the audience here during DoD’s recent third annual personnel recovery conference, sponsored by the Defense POW-Missing Personnel Office. Hammer 34 and his rescuers told their stories on the condition of anonymity. In fact it was later revealed that he was the squadron commander.

“Hammer 34” had just finished a strike against Serb SAM missile sites near Novi Sad when an enemy missile exploded close to his jet and made his the second U.S. aircraft downed during Operation Allied Force. He punched out and watched the aircraft hit the ground in a ball of flames as he parachuted safely to the ground.”

Flogger if you had actually taken the time do some in-depth research then you would have found the above yourself. During Allied Force a huge percentage of the communications were in the clear. Radio enthusiasts tuned in daily to listen to the vast amount of non-secure comms. Many of those were recorded including “Hammer 34s”. Other communications listened into of note included the F-15/16 v MiG-29 engagements on the first night (24th March) and on the 26th March 1999.

Enthusiasts set up chat channels recounting the best bits that they were listening into. If you believe in the ’38’ then you must also believe that there must have been a huge number of incidents intercepted on radio. Strange that those Maydays, Combat search and rescue transmissions etc also went undetected by those keen and eager radio enthusiasts. The desicion to go mostly open comms was because that not all players in the NATO fleet had equipment compatability at that time.

The USMC AV-8B was Bureau Number 164568. This was lost off the USS Kearsarge due to pilot error. The Kearsarge was off the coast near Brindisi, Italy when the accident happened. In a transition phase he did the same as the RAF Harrier pilot at the Lowestoft airshow in 2002. It is a common cause of Harrier accidents and all it takes is a lapse in concentration to get yourself in trouble.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/3330045.stm

“An RAF board of inquiry has now established that Flight Lieutenant Cann had accidentally operated the controls for throttle and nozzle direction lever at the same time causing it to drop like a stone.”

So Flogger, just for your conspiracy we are to believe that a USMC pilot took a flight endorsement for pilot error in order to cover up a combat loss? The pilot successfully ejected.

Flogger, operating Harriers has never been easy. During June 1999 two USMC AV-8Bs were lost – one in Japan the other in the U.S. No doubt your conspiracy theory will stretch to the fact that these losses actually took place over Yugoslavia on combat operations LOL!

http://www.cnn.com/US/9906/18/marines.harriers/index.html

“Six of the grounded attack jets are currently aboard the amphibious assault ship U.S.S. Kearsarge now sailing in the Adriatic Sea in support of NATO operations in Yugoslavia.

The first Harrier crashed during take off June 4 at Kadena Airbase in Okinawa, Japan, and a second crashed June 14 during a training flight at the Barry Goldwater Bombing and Gunnery Range in Arizona. Both crashes are under investigation.”

On the two AH-64 losses. Flogger the AH-64 did not take part in combat operations. It was never put into combat. Did you really think that they were involved in combat operations? Do you not think that the individual who you believe shot down the two Apaches would be somewhat of a national hero? Strange that no Serb unit has claimed any of those AH-64s don’t you think?

Flogger you are aware that the first AH-64 to crash was filmed? Strange that you believe that it must have been due to enemy action? An area swarming with troops and media and no one notices units of the Serb Army firing or shooting at the helo? Not one Serb unit has made any claim for any AH-64. The crew survived and the cause was investigated as pilot error. Here we have an AH-64 filmed in trouble resulting in a crash and we are led to believe that the crew would take an error endorsement to hide a loss to enemy fire.?

I take it that you have seen the video footage Flogger?

The second AH-64 crash in May resulted in the deaths of the crew. Again in Albania. The U.S. Army investigation concluded that the cause will be listed as unknown “due to the degree of damage sustained during the crash sequence,” Army spokesman Col. Edwin Veiga said. In what he described as a highly unusual outcome, Veiga said investigators could find no definitive answer to what caused the crash.

The AH-64 had been on a training mission in a formation of five. Chief Warrant Officer David Gibbs and Chief Warrant Officer Kevin Reichert were killed. Now Flogger are we to believe that the other Apache crews are all covering up that they came under enemy fire while in Albania? The deaths of their colleagues are officially down as a training accident and not in combat. Do you not think they would have noticed enemy fire such as a missile launch resulting in crash? Again no Serb unit, or individual makes any claim for any of those AH-64s. Or do you believe that they were destroyed along with several others in the Serbian air raids on Rinas? I take it that you have read the fantasy stories of both the Tuzla and Rinas air raids?

Going back to the first AH-64 the Serb media couldn’t help themselves. A video was hown on Serb TV and claimed to be from the actual shooting down of the AH-64. Footage was made from three segments, first firing of SA-7 (Grail), second firing showed an SA-13 (Gopher). Those clips were taken from a VJ military documentary made long before Allied Force. The third footage was taken from the western camera crew who was filming the Apache. It was a very poor attempt to pass it off as authentic combat footage for the benefit of the Serb population. Again no Serb unit made any claims of any AH-64s apart from the one’s you will see on Venik’s website such as the claims that they captured an Apache deep inside Kosovo etc.Please Flogger tell me that you don’t actually believe those stories?

Flogger, you are still not coming up with the goods. If you believe in the ’38’ then where are the announcements of training accidents to cover them up? Why hasn’t NATO announced the fact that a Tornado or F-16 etc crashed in Italy in order to cover up a combat loss? Flogger where are the missing RAF Harriers? I take it that you believe that because an RAF Tornado left its externals behind then it must have been shot down? Do the Serbs actually claim that they shot down Tornadoes?

I feel that you are scouring through Venik’s and other ‘NATO down tables’ and attributing stories and tales. Flogger you are aware that the Serbs themselves admitted after the conflict to the propaganda campaign aimed at the Serb population. A campaign that completely got out of control and resulted in the likes of yourself hanging onto every story and tale that it produced.

This disinformation campaign was revealed in “INAT: Images of Serbia and the Kosovo Conflict” by Scott Taylor He describes an interview with Bojan Bugarcic on 25th November 1999 (Bugarcic, was the Senior Advisor on International Affairs to Yugoslav President Milosevic)

“He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. “Using the state broadcaster, unofficial ‘Russian intelligence’ web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting ‘pure lies,’ his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft.”He was devestated when he learned the truth.”

It was the disinformation campaign that resulted in ‘Gvozden Djukic’. The name ‘Gvozden Djukic’ originally appeared as air defence ground unit commander. An example of the disinformation campaign getting out of hand such as B-2s being shot down etc was your belief that a MiG-29 pilot named ‘Gvozden Djukic’ shot down an F-117 and was awarded a medal by Milosevic.

This was the propaganda that subsequently made it into Russian military and civilian press: (Obviously someone spun it out for their own agenda!)

“Lt.Col. Gvozden Djukic: “Suddenly I saw a dot of light in the sky, and I headed by aircraft towards it. I realized that I was doing a head-on attack. The first missile I fired against it struck it in that head-on course.”

Few hours later Gvozden Djukic (and the whole world) knew due to the TV coverage that his victim had been one of the -until that time- considered invincible stealth fighters F-117A Nighthawks. After that it was clear that the stealth fighter was neither invisible nor immune to the helmet-mounted gunsight of the MiG-29 and their missiles R-73 Archer.”

Not one member of the 127 Lae made any such claim.

Over to you Flogger. Be good now until next weekend. Don’t be doing extensive research and breaking the ‘NATO losses’ conspiracy theory.

Will Flogger find the missing ’38’? Will he bring NATO to its knees with the revalations? Will governments fall due to the outcry? Tune in next week for Flogger’s solving of the cover-up!

The Serbian airforce should buy more Mig-29’s and Su-27 fighters. Scrap the rest and you’ll have 2 great fleets. Also they should hava a small Mig-25 fleet in reserve, as for the helicopters, get more Mi 24’s and Mi 8’s. 🙂

What age are you? The last thing the Serbs would ever consider is a fleet of MiG-25s. The cringe factor is probably very high within the Serb posters here? What were you proposing earlier Mi-6s? Give it a rest will you?

OK Flogger,
Firstly I think you are simply a Troll. Wasn’t it some time ago that you were claiming that you were thirteen years old? Looking back over your posts your naivety is still that of a thirteen year olds.

I see that you are now doing some research in regard to the links that I supplied you. Flogger can you tell me how many Harrier GR.7s have crashed since the end of Allied Force combat ops in 1999? Flogger your naivety is simply stunning. All you have to offer is smiley’s when you noted that Harriers have been lost in accidents. So we now have your opinion that aircraft accidents post Allied Force (1999) are figments to cover up a combat loss over Yugoslavia.

It’s taken me about 30 minutes to compile the following. Flogger study the links carefully. Note the vast conspiracy theory that would have to be put in force for your “there are even Harrier GR7 accident losses hehehehehe in that
list”

Harrier GR.7 losses since Allied Force (Remember that combat ops started on 24 March 1999):

ZD345 crashed 9 July 1999 5 miles south west of Boston, Lincolnshire, UK.

ZG532 crashed 14 July 1999 6 miles East of Coldstream, Northumberland, UK.

ZD464 crashed 2 August 2002 at Lowestoft airshow, Suffolk, UK.

Firstly here is ZD464’s demise filmed at the airshow:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2168921.stm

Here is ZD345:

http://photos.airliners.net/photos/photos/5/4/0/0821045.jpg

Imaged on 12 June 1999 at Woodford air show, UK. (I was at this airshow)

It was never noted at Gioia del Colle, Italy as part of Allied Force.

ZD345 was also noted at the RAF Waddington airshow on the 26 and 27 June 1999. (I was at this airshow.)

http://www.jhayles.demon.co.uk/pics/waddo/wad3.htm#p3r3

On the 9 July ZD345 crashed in Lincolnshire, UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/390324.stm

ZG532 crashed 14 July 1999

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/394738.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1999/07/15/nraf15.html

Both ZD345 and ZG532 are mentioned here along with their radio callsigns and aircraft in their respective

formations:

http://www.mar.co.uk/MAR_BRIT.HTM

zG532 mentioned in UK’s Parliament Minutes of Evidence. Now think Flogger. You live in Russia, or claim to do, how often would you see detailed minutes of evidence including serial number in Russia’s officialdom?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmselect/cmdfence/516/516ap05.htm

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo001220/halltext/01220h01.htm

From questions raised in reference to ZG532s demise:

“I also have the report into the Harrier crash near Coldstream. That incident involved five Harriers, nine Tornado jets, three of which were supporting the Harriers and six of which were acting as the “enemy”, and a Tucano aircraft

that was on a completely different navigation exercise, presumably without the knowledge of any of the authorities involved. In turn, they did not seem to have knowledge of the low-flying activity that was taking place. One Harrier was lost when departing violently from its course to avoid collision with the Tucano.”

Both ZG532 and ZD345’s demise raised in questions here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansrd/vo000229/text/00229w07.htm

If you search in Google Groups alt.disasters.aviation you will find the following thread in relation to ZG532’s demise:

Harrier Crash 14 July 1999
Date: Thurs, Jul 15 1999 12:00 am
Email: “JimboC”
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Hi,

Does anyone have any info on this Harrier which crashed at Pallinsburn
near Coldstream, Northumberland, UK yesterday?

Jim

From: JimboC – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: “JimboC”
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

The crash involved a Harrier GR7 of 3sqn RAF, does anyone have the serial
number and pilots name?

Jim

From: Jeff Taylor – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: Jeff Taylor
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Hi Jim,

I saw a little bit about this on local news; one eyewitness reported
hearing a loud explosion, then saw the plane coming down in flames.
The pilot ejected and walked away with minor cuts and bruises, after
freeing himself from the tree in which he landed.
Hope this helps,

Best Wishes,

Jeff Taylor

From: JimboC – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: “JimboC”
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I missed the report on the local news and very
little was mentioned in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle. The location is 800
yards from Pallinsburn House.

My father saw the news report and said it showed the parachute up in a tree, I think the cuts to the pilot were caused by the branches of the trees!

Jim

From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Hi Jim,

I saw a little bit about this on local news; one eyewitness reported
hearing a loud explosion, then saw the plane coming down in flames.
Take that with a grain of salt for the moment. Apparently people tend to
see a crashing aircraft as being on fire whether it is or not. I even
saw a local newsreport about a plane crash last year where the newscaster
described the plane as being on fire even tho’ the crash footage showed
nothing of the sort.

tim gueguen 101867″

German aircraft enthusiast noted ZG532 at RAF Laarbruch, Germany during 1999:

http://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=23705&page=29

“22-04,Donnerstag

BASED

3 Sqn,Harrier GR.7 ZD378/26,ZD410/39,ZG532/86″

“26-04,Montag

BASED

3 Sqn,Harrier GR.7 ZD328/09,ZD378/26,ZG532/86″

“11-05,Dienstag

BASED

3 Sqn,Harrier GR.7 ZD328/09,ZD378/26,ZD379/27,ZD410/39,
ZG509/80,ZG532/86″

Flogger here is a defence journalist who I think you should be contacting. Sean Rayment believes that the RAF lost a GR.7 last year in Afghanistan:

“Harrier destroyed by Afghan rocket
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/16/nafg16.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/16/ixhome.html

Sean Rayment repeats the claim here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/30/nafg30.xml

Flogger,
Maybe you should be contacting Mr Rayment? Just imagine together you could split wide open the hidden losses during

Allied Force and beyond?

Over to you Flogger. No doubt you’ll have all the conspiracy theory answers? How are the ‘NATO’ doing it Flogger? I’m a taxpayer and need to know?

You looking at me?

Unusual shot.

I don’t think anybody’s mentioned this. Did you know that when the TU-22 and TU-128 were first seen at a Moscow parade flypast in 1961, NATO thought they were both Bombers and gave them the Codenames Blinder and Beauty. (The Tu128 had the Blinder Codename by the way). After the Tu-128 was found to be an Interceptor, it was renamed Fiddler and the Blinder codename was given to the Tu-22 (Rumour has it that the Tu-22 name change was done by NATO thanks to the yanks complaining that nothing communist could ever be called beautiful).

NATO names nothing. NATO is on the distribution list from the ASCC and always has been. It was ASCC (Air Standardization Coordinating Committee) that named Soviet/Russian and Chinese aircraft. ASCC was made up of US, Australia, UK, Canada and New Zealand. ASCC is now named ASIC
(Air and Space Ineroprability Council). Yes they still allocate codenames. It will be ASIC that codename the J-10 for example.