Das KardinalFull member status.. seems to me that Euro-consortium do put effort in this tender..
My cynical being sees this more like “happy customer gets to fund the full cost of upgrades we’re too cheap to fund ourselves”.
Like the “80 %” thing for India. Sure, India would get 80 % influence on future EF developments… because they’d be the only ones interested and paying for. :diablo:
Das KardinalWhy did you drop the “below 30 ft” part ? :rolleyes:
It wasn’t clear whether the “not possible” part applied only to the “below 30 ft” condition or to Aspis’ larger paragraph.
Besides, we all saw those videos of crazy french pilots flying lower than 30 ft above ground or sea (during the day and fair weather over flat terrain, granted…) 😎
Das KardinalIt may sound like a pedantry difference, but it does mean different goals. It’s like saying a square is a rectangle and vice versa, which is not true.
Indeed but it’s less about individual aircraft than the global force disparity between the opposing sides.
As someone mentioned Iraq, air dominance over Iraq, Libya or name-some-other-third-world-craphole can be, and is achieved right now without Raptors or so-called 5th gen aircraft.
OTOH, against the mythical super tough Not-Chinese Air Force equipped with hundreds of J-20s and legions of previous-gen designs, supported by the equally mythical mega-hardcore IADS consisting in layer upon layer of S-400s and Tors and Pantsirs and Lazors… in short, the kind of Space Unicorn Opfor every F-22/F-35 supporter is fapping about, well, air dominance and even mere air superiority might be a tiny bit more difficult to achieve.
Das KardinalNot possible in darkness or any kind of inclement weather and, as you say, expect debilitating losses.
Where are you getting that from? The 400km missile for the S-400 might well be delayed, but even that isn’t completely certain.ASMP is too large really, it’s another 40% heavier than the Kh-31P and that’s a very big weapon to begin with. The launch aircraft can only carry it in small numbers and to achieve its best range the missile needs to fly at altitude – where, thanks to its size, it will be vulnerable to interception by the S-300.
Nitpicking a bit (because I agree more or less with the rest of your post) :
_ low alt penetration not possible in darkness or inclement weather ? I suspect M2KN or Rafale drivers might disagree (doesn’t mean it’s not risky, but possible and trained for routinely)
_ data on the ASMP-A is mostly classified, but basic logic and inference would have me believe that it’s probably the stealthiest missile in France’s arsenal, and if MBDA wasn’t lying about using active cancellation on some of their products… the ASMP would be the prime candidate for that.
Of course that’s theoretical anyway because the ASMP doesn’t exist in a conventional version… as far as we know !
Das KardinalI would yet like to see any source seriously dealing with that issue.
It would be extremely challenging, especially for the mapping part. How will you do this at long range? Terrain following might be possible at least in combination with current terrain following systems (passive like TERPROM) it’s quite possible. The Rafale doesn’t rely on its radar to conduct low level flying, though as I understand it the radar is more accurate and lowers the min alt clearance. An optical system may help and compensate (didn’t thought about it in the first place).
In the end I doubt that we’ll see the radar being replaced by an optical system anytime soon.
Indeed, that would seem extremely premature and… unwise.
What may be happening is that the radar appears no longer as THE only/primary/above all else sensor but as ONE of the sensors.
Das KardinalIn 2006 , the Europeans said that stealthy UAC/UCAVs with an RCS of 0.0001m2 (-40dB) will enter service by 2020-2025 . When one check the look of the UAV/UCAVs and the technologies involved , one will understand that this kind of ultra low RCS was not possible in the early 90s and certainly not for a fighter with a F-22 size . That would mean that the USA have a 30-35 years lead ! 😀 Soon , we ‘ll learn that they landed on Pluto …
Well, maybe they do (have a 30 year advantage in deploying operational VLO platforms, I mean).
OTOH, I’m inclined to believe that there’s not a huge lot of improvement margin left in the passive stealth field. We’re probably reaching a plateau – look at the different stealthy fighters and UAV/UCAV designs out there : they do tend to look the same (faceted-blended stuff à la Raptor or B2)
Das KardinalWith regards to the Libya air defences, The French might have been confident SPECTRA could do the job with only a small treat to the aircraft. But that doesn’t mean that the RAF wouldn’t have been just as confidant with regards to DASS being able to protect the aircraft, but the fact of the matter is it is not a mature A2G platform so there was no advantage to sending it in that early.
Besides whenever you send in an aircraft in a SEAD role there is a risk to the aircraft no matter how advanced the systems, tomahawks and storm shadow remove the risk entirely. after all if i gave you a M16/body armour and said there’s a guy over there in that house with a hand gun and he wants to shoot you but don’t worry your guns bigger and better than his! So you can walk over there and shoot him with the m16 or you can use this cannon and blow up his house from here…….. I know which option id choose, but not because i couldn’t use the M16. Maybe the French are truly brave i could believe that after watching some of the crazy low level flying films on you tube.
The kind of technological disparity is more in line with the other dude having a Kalach and a steel helmet, and you having a Nanosuit and a Gauss rifle/minigun combo (Crysis reference in case you didn’t get it)…
Das KardinalVivaldi arrays ? What’s that ? Enemy radars are put on hold while listening to the Four Seasons ?
Das KardinalAASM is the equivalent to JDAM-ER right ?
i.e -a guidance kit strapped on a dumb bomb with some extra range.From what i can gather, JDAM is integrated on EF, and a JDAM-ER was expected to cost $10.000. (yeah, i believe it when i see it :rolleyes: )
Being iron bombs, they will be subsonic and highly unlikely to get through a Tor M1
AASM brings more than a JDAM. The JDAM-ER will be launched from high altitude and sure, the Tor M1 and its buddies will have plenty of time to see it coming. OTOH, a spread of AASM could pop up from behind the nearest hill with seconds to spare, fired from a Rafale flying at tree-top level in the middle of the night.
Well said Mr Kardinal.
S82, you are getting a wee bit obsessed with the onmirole Rafale.
In fairness to those who are championing the title it does seem that the Rafale package allows the platform to do more at the same time than previous multirole platfroms could. For example the Tornado is multirole right? You wouldn’t claim a Tornado has the same capabilities as a Rafale would you? How about an F15E? The point i think people are trying to make is that those aircraft could (ish) do all the missions that the Rafale can (to a greater or lesser degree) but they certainly could not do all of them competently, to the same level, at the same time as the Rafale apparently can.
Well, those other planes belong to the previous generation (conceptually), so it’s quite normal. And they’re still effective in their roles.
It’s more… dare I say… okay, i’ll take some flak, but for the sake of debating : the Rafale is delivering today what the F-35 is promising for tomorrow. 😎
Das KardinalI’m not aware about the details of the Libyan AD, other than that its individual elements were dated. The systems employed are largely similar to those encountered in Iraq and the Balkans. You certainly expect a top notch EW system like SPECTRA to perform reasonably well. The French and NATO in general were already spying the Libyan AD a few weeks before the first missions were actually flown. So yes the French were confident and that’s fine, others were possibly not. We nonetheless know little details about the ongoing missions.
Fair points and I agree with them.
Old systems can still be dangerous – especially when manned by smart people (Serbia), and plain luck/Murphy can strike anytime.
The US still went in with B2s and Tomahawks first (…and were the only ones to lose a plane…). Arguably, they can afford to be overcautious. Doesn’t mean their way is the only way, as much as hype might make it seems so in the mainstream.
Das KardinalSales reps gotta love em eh? Or boil them slowly in oil.
I always feel Anybody quoting sales literature and taking every statement as gospel ie “the worlds greatest A2A/multirole/etc” is only deluding themselves after all dassault, Eurofighter, Boeing are hardly likely to state ” We have the 2nd best”
Actually, the Typhoon was touted as “second best” after the F-22 :diablo:
Das KardinalThe Thales guy said this:
Yes, i find a bit “odd” someone that claims that THALES is five years ahead of Northrop and Raytheon in AESA technology for airborne radars.
Then I remembered wrong. Yes, it does sound overinflated to say the least. The “too much champagne” explanation would fit best :rolleyes:
Das KardinalBW, what do i know? Not much, that i will admit it, but in this particular case (by reading a bit for the last three decades) i am aware that the likes of Raytheon and Northrop are ahead of the entire world in developing/testing and fielding AESA chips in almost every conceivable military aplication by virtue off massive budgets and orders from the Pentagon, so yes, i find a bit ridiculous that in this particular case someone claiming that THALES is ahead of the development curve FIVE years in relation to the americans.
IIRC the Thales guy said “five years ahead in Europe”. He didn’t say Thales was ahead of those American firms.
Das KardinalOk gotja…. but do you know TMor intimately so i can take your word for it ?,
or is it just more unsubstantiated wishful mumble like your french EW pixie dust ?FYI it is blatant fanboi’s like yourself that makes reasonable french like TMor Kovy etc embarrassed & fed up, and the rest of us just fed up with Rafale fanboi’sm at all, you’re worse than Scooter, by a large margin.
Look, -I, as everyone else, think Rafale is a sound design, low/high speed maneuverability (with the exception of the undersized nose), but keep the EW junk to yourself.
Lets just say it’s an EW suite of 1990’s vintage that none besides fanboi’s like yourself over-rate.
And about the equally, if not more, over-promoted data-link 16 that France finally got when the rest of the world had already moved on to more sophisticated links:
It has been standard for 20-30 years now, and surpassed by far over 10 years ago.
As you blatantly want to promote Rafale at all cost, i suggest you concentrate on range with bomb load, that’s where it shine.
So the current F3 standard Spectra is 90s vintage ?
Link 16 has been superseded by better datalinks that everyone else has had in the past decade ?
I hope you’re not alluding to the Raptor’s IFDL which… can’t communicate with anything else,which is too bad because raptors are the only ones equipped ? Or the Swedish datalinks, which are reportedly very nice, but far from standard ?
Or the Link >16 that are only found on warships AFAIK ?
While BW’s oft-unsubstantiated claims are annoying, sometimes it’s easy to understand where a guy like him comes from, having witnessed a decade of Freedom Fries powered Rafale-bashing and JOUST-based comparisons :dev2:
Das KardinalI’m sure the Selex etc teams have all the competences needed to put out a Captor E tomorrow if the powers that be asked them (with a sizable lump of money).
Except the PTB haven’t. The Typhoon could be so much better if it had better backers, IMHO.
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