wilhelmWhat can I say, just as in the Jimmy Saville case, there ain’t nothing you can do about bringing him to justice now and to be honest the sentence he recieved and actually served far out weighed anything they would give today for murder. You need to remember that, no point getting wound up after the guy is brown bread..
True.
And indeed, he himself alludes to the fact, as I mentioned earlier, that prison made him try and understand the reasons and motives of the Afrikaner people.
Was watching a discussion the other day that included FW de Klerk and Thabo Mbeki.
De Klerk alluded to the trauma of the Boer War, where the Afrikaners had a huge percentage of their women and children taken from them in truly awful, and indeed evil circumstances.
This trauma directly influenced many of the leaders who were involved in the setting up of apartheid, or seperate development to them. They had had mothers, siblings, and relatives who died in the camps.
It is imperitive this is understood, as nothing happens in a vacuum.
They were so transfixed with securing a safe destiny for their nation, after the recent trauma, that they ignored the bad they were doing to others.
They ignored black political needs.
It became a monster.
It is within this context, that Nelson Mandela studied, that he began to understand their fears and aspirations.
Prison changed him.
wilhelmWhat can I say, just as in the Jimmy Saville case, there ain’t nothing you can do about bringing him to justice now and to be honest the sentence he recieved and actually served far out weighed anything they would give today for murder. You need to remember that, no point getting wound up after the guy is brown bread..
True.
And indeed, he himself alludes to the fact, as I mentioned earlier, that prison made him try and understand the reasons and motives of the Afrikaner people.
Was watching a discussion the other day that included FW de Klerk and Thabo Mbeki.
De Klerk alluded to the trauma of the Boer War, where the Afrikaners had a huge percentage of their women and children taken from them in truly awful, and indeed evil circumstances.
This trauma directly influenced many of the leaders who were involved in the setting up of apartheid, or seperate development to them. They had had mothers, siblings, and relatives who died in the camps.
It is imperitive this is understood, as nothing happens in a vacuum.
They were so transfixed with securing a safe destiny for their nation, after the recent trauma, that they ignored the bad they were doing to others.
They ignored black political needs.
It became a monster.
It is within this context, that Nelson Mandela studied, that he began to understand their fears and aspirations.
Prison changed him.
wilhelm…blah…blah…blah…
To paraphrase you: “OK. I’ll ask one more time.”
Give us the “identities” of the pipeline worker victims.
Give us the “identities” of the Church Street car bomb victims.
For good measure, give us the “identities” of the workers, civilians, and families in the north of the country killed and maimed by landmines.
I’m calling you on your own “logic” here, and using exactly the same criteria you did originally.
I suppose none of this happened, even though Mr Mandela himself has acknowledged it.
Nothing personal, but your way of asking for “identities” of victims by way of a 2 minute google search is deeply flawed.
This does not mean, as the evidence of the Church Street car bomb proves, that it did not happen.
Hundreds of thousands of handgrenades and anti-personnel mines smuggled in under his auspices should also be a little clue.
Anybody here amongst us who has also served in the infantry can tell you these devices are unsuitable for sabotage due to the nature of their construction and explosive content.
They have only one use.
wilhelm…blah…blah…blah…
To paraphrase you: “OK. I’ll ask one more time.”
Give us the “identities” of the pipeline worker victims.
Give us the “identities” of the Church Street car bomb victims.
For good measure, give us the “identities” of the workers, civilians, and families in the north of the country killed and maimed by landmines.
I’m calling you on your own “logic” here, and using exactly the same criteria you did originally.
I suppose none of this happened, even though Mr Mandela himself has acknowledged it.
Nothing personal, but your way of asking for “identities” of victims by way of a 2 minute google search is deeply flawed.
This does not mean, as the evidence of the Church Street car bomb proves, that it did not happen.
Hundreds of thousands of handgrenades and anti-personnel mines smuggled in under his auspices should also be a little clue.
Anybody here amongst us who has also served in the infantry can tell you these devices are unsuitable for sabotage due to the nature of their construction and explosive content.
They have only one use.
wilhelmOK, I’ll ask one more time. When and where did Nelson Mandela plant bombs that killed people prior to his jailing in 1964? How many people did he personally kill and what were their identities? As you say there is plenty of evidence so it must be easy to find.
Right.
In his book “Long Walk to Freedom”, Nelson Mandela states that he personally approved and signed off on the Church Street bombings in Pretoria in 1983.
You know, the one that killed 19 and maimed over 200 more from a car bomb detonated in rush hour pedestrain traffic.
Using your pathetic strawman argument, why don’t you provide us with a list of the identities of those victims?
If you can’t find them on the internet, by your vacuous logic, the bombing didn’t happen, and Nelson Mandela is himself telling fairy tales of an incident that didn’t happen.
I could provide gruesome footage of this event that “didn’t happen”, but I won’t, to spare the other forum members, plus we all know it won’t change your addled outlook.
The same way that the 6 pipeline workers (black btw) who were killed doing their job when he wasn’t jailed didn’t happen either, eh?
Because the internet doesn’t spit out their identities.
Can you see how pathetic your argument is?
I don’t think you do, as you would not have posted a reply such as …
A piece of good advice, especially when someone dies, is , if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.
…on a discussion forum.
By all means continue with your uncritical, slavish adulation, and ignore the wrongs.
Others, such as myself, acknowledge the good that he has done, but have grave reservations of the violence and killing he initiated, of which he himself acknowledges.
You clearly haven’t even read A long walk to Freedom, as you would have found the answers you obviously aren’t seeking in there.
You seem quite willing to try and debate from a position of profound ignorance on even the basics, based on uncritical hero worship.
wilhelmOK, I’ll ask one more time. When and where did Nelson Mandela plant bombs that killed people prior to his jailing in 1964? How many people did he personally kill and what were their identities? As you say there is plenty of evidence so it must be easy to find.
Right.
In his book “Long Walk to Freedom”, Nelson Mandela states that he personally approved and signed off on the Church Street bombings in Pretoria in 1983.
You know, the one that killed 19 and maimed over 200 more from a car bomb detonated in rush hour pedestrain traffic.
Using your pathetic strawman argument, why don’t you provide us with a list of the identities of those victims?
If you can’t find them on the internet, by your vacuous logic, the bombing didn’t happen, and Nelson Mandela is himself telling fairy tales of an incident that didn’t happen.
I could provide gruesome footage of this event that “didn’t happen”, but I won’t, to spare the other forum members, plus we all know it won’t change your addled outlook.
The same way that the 6 pipeline workers (black btw) who were killed doing their job when he wasn’t jailed didn’t happen either, eh?
Because the internet doesn’t spit out their identities.
Can you see how pathetic your argument is?
I don’t think you do, as you would not have posted a reply such as …
A piece of good advice, especially when someone dies, is , if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.
…on a discussion forum.
By all means continue with your uncritical, slavish adulation, and ignore the wrongs.
Others, such as myself, acknowledge the good that he has done, but have grave reservations of the violence and killing he initiated, of which he himself acknowledges.
You clearly haven’t even read A long walk to Freedom, as you would have found the answers you obviously aren’t seeking in there.
You seem quite willing to try and debate from a position of profound ignorance on even the basics, based on uncritical hero worship.
wilhelmNail on head -sums it all up for me 🙂
Pathetic.
The canonization has begun.
For all the undoubted good he has done, in 10 years time the violent beginnings will be airbrushed from history.
wilhelmNail on head -sums it all up for me 🙂
Pathetic.
The canonization has begun.
For all the undoubted good he has done, in 10 years time the violent beginnings will be airbrushed from history.
wilhelmMandela was no saint but neither was he an evil murdering terrorist.
What do you think happens when you plant bombs in public areas?
Do you think Umkhonto we Sizwe was a knitting club?
There is no excuse for ignorance when there is plenty of evidence before you.
wilhelmMandela was no saint but neither was he an evil murdering terrorist.
What do you think happens when you plant bombs in public areas?
Do you think Umkhonto we Sizwe was a knitting club?
There is no excuse for ignorance when there is plenty of evidence before you.
wilhelmA bit of both, in my opinion.
But, as John Green points out, you’ll hardly hear of the deeply unpleasant things Nelson Mandela orchestrated, of which he himself admits, in this orgy of beatification for sainthood.
A bit inconvenient too, is the video of Nelson Mandela singing this song after he was released from prison.
It’s hardly a song of reconciliation….
wilhelmA bit of both, in my opinion.
But, as John Green points out, you’ll hardly hear of the deeply unpleasant things Nelson Mandela orchestrated, of which he himself admits, in this orgy of beatification for sainthood.
A bit inconvenient too, is the video of Nelson Mandela singing this song after he was released from prison.
It’s hardly a song of reconciliation….
wilhelmMandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…
The purchase was a Thank You for various Swedish governments direct funding of the ANC.
Even though the criminality of a lot of the ANC’s actions were well known.
Bombing of innocent civilians in public spaces, and the Quatro Camp where ANC volunteers were themselves tortured and murdered.
One wonders why the Swedes chose to exclusively fund such a movement, to the extend of ignoring more moderate organisations who had the same goal of ending apartheid.
One would also wonder what any states reaction would be toward a government directly funding an organisation planting bombs in shopping centres, public streets, and pubs.
Perhaps what happened to Olaf Palme was hardly surprising….
wilhelmMandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…
The purchase was a Thank You for various Swedish governments direct funding of the ANC.
Even though the criminality of a lot of the ANC’s actions were well known.
Bombing of innocent civilians in public spaces, and the Quatro Camp where ANC volunteers were themselves tortured and murdered.
One wonders why the Swedes chose to exclusively fund such a movement, to the extend of ignoring more moderate organisations who had the same goal of ending apartheid.
One would also wonder what any states reaction would be toward a government directly funding an organisation planting bombs in shopping centres, public streets, and pubs.
Perhaps what happened to Olaf Palme was hardly surprising….
wilhelmAgain, I think Nelson Mandela acted very well once released, and played a large part in easing tensions.
It just should not be forgotten that Nelson Mandela was previously a man of violence, who’s actions caused great misery and loss to people, black and white.
This seems to have been forgotten in the orgy of eulogising.
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