I think we’re straying into two separate themes here. Are we looking at torture as a punisment? (A means of providing televisual entertainment to Old Shape and Merlin.) Or are we looking at torture as a means of extracting information?

Old Shape and Merlin are advocating torture as a means of punishment and

The death sentence would gradually filter down their own personal scale of criminality. Would it be as far as bringing the death penalty for those guilty of, say, three convictions for burglary or assault?

After all, how productive is a child with profound and multiple learning disabilities going to be? They’re even more of a drain on the state than a criminal. Shall we dispose of those too?

I’m all for punishment of those guilty of criminality. But it has to be tempered, where possible, with an attempt at rehabilitation. That is not always possible or advisable and therefore even I can envisage situations in which the death penalty might be utilised.

It always makes me smile when you get people who say ‘I’d willingly hang/shoot/execute murderers and rapists.’ They won’t. And they never would. It’s just false bravado from behind the anonymity of a computer screen or over the top of a pint in a pub.

Kev firstly I dont think you have read my posts properly.

I didnt say I wanted to be entertained by torture/death on tv ( although we already have death on tv every disaster or terrorists bomb etc) Rather that I understood where Old Shape was coming from and understood the concept. This concept would be based on the fact that it would make money on tv and then that money could be put back into the system or to give to help victims. I dont think that I said that I would like to see it on tv.

Anyhow.

As for killing minority groups of people like the disabled etc etc. I dont believe that is what this discussion is about.

Kev have I every told you that my son is disabled. A little below the belt and rather hurtful.

Also smile away but some people would be willing to do a job which get rid of the most foul of criminals. If hanging was brought back I would apply for the job. I feel that strongly about this and I have the courage of my convictions. Its not the taking of a life that you can be proud of but rather the paying of a debt to society. Some of these people do not deserve to live.

Bravado I dont think so.

I think that we probably agree more than you think about who we think should suffer this fate (see quote in red) We are both quite realistic and I dont think any of this will happen in the uk in myt lifetime so this is all quite irrrelevant.

Person A tortures and kills person ( or animal ) B.Being civilised people,we recognise that this is morally wrong.So how can it be morally right for the state,society or whatever you call it to do the same thing to person A ?That just perpetuates a state of violence.

On personal opinion here. If person A tortures or kills person B then I dont really think it matters what the state does to them and whats more I dont really care. I think we dont go far enough in this country as it is.

I am with Old Shape on a lot of his views but some of his other ideas are not so workable. I totally get the concept of his thinking and understand where he is coming from regarding putting it on tv just dont know how it would work.

Anyway back to the point. Not being religious or anything I do rather like the eye for an eye way of thinking.

If you do something to said person the you should get an equal something done to you. Dont know how this works with regards robbery or anything though.

I have had this conversation many times and the rapists and murderers of anyone should be hung but especially if children were involved and I would gladly do it.

I believe in a lot of the old ways. I think why we have gone so soft is that for years all you would hear about was how crims were being convicted and hung while all along they were innocent of that crime and once its done you cant bring them back. But with advances in technology isnt it about time we looked at it again.

So then rightly convicted crims that were proven guilty beyond all doubt would spend X amount of time behind bars and then would be diposed of in an appropriate way and thenn our prisons would not be full or as full and we wouldnt need to foot the bill for them.

Simples

Why would the life of a child be more valuable than that of someone ,say , my age ( a pensioner, dammit ! ) Wouldn’t it be fairer to apply it to ALL murderers and would you go along with that ?

BumbleBee may I answer that question obviously you would like Old Shape to have his opinion but here is mine.

ALL life is sacred but I am not an anti abortion pro life nut I would just like people to be able to live free from any kind of abuse etc.

And a childs life isnt worth more really everyone has a right to live a long and happy life but at least we have had a life. The tortured raped and killed child has had none or at least a very short interrupted life. In this case I belive the child has more right to live than any of us old gits. Me being a rather younger old git at 36.

I hope this answer the question.

Britain IS changing and I think it is growing less tolerant of a lot of things.

People are getting fed up.

And I am not saying that this is the right way to go it is just an observation.

With all seriousness watch Flight 666 the Iron Maiden Documentary it is rather good but it also gives you a cracking look at their 757 but in it Bruce lets you know a little about flying ie he was very bright by his own admission and how he did what it took to get his academics up to scratch.

If you want it you got to work hard and go get it.

Forget the aptitude test and go for it. Do what it takes. You CAN do it.

Obviously take any aptitude tests that air schooling requires you to take and any that potential employers want you to take.

Go for it.

Therefore you’re smart enough to know that torturing people because they’ve tortured other people is just descending to the same level.

I am a follower of the tradition that is :-

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

And I would hope that if I was some kind of sicko criminal someone would come along and torture me. Because thats exactly what I would have done to them.

It is not that long ago that we stopped the death sentence. And sometimes I wonder why.

Obviously there were some innocents along the way and this is where the whole thing falls down.

I also think that Prison is far to soft for prisoners these days as well. Prison to me is prison and personally think it should be way tougher on crims.

I know that I would not like to spend time in prison at all even now but I know guys in edinburgh that get put in prison for their holidays. No joking. Life is tougher for them on the outside.

For me it has to be the flight in the Dragon Rapide at Duxford. My first time ever in a propellor driven plane.

Later found out that that very aircraft had went on fire after we had been on it. Soon after that it was restored to flight.

The other thing was seeing the BofB Memorial Flight Spitfire over Haddington as we were in the cemetary honouring a pilot in the presence of his now ageing girlfriend of the time.

truely wonderful memory.