over GHello djcross 🙂
Well anybody knows that…..i had said only that the f22 has some stealth techs, but was not designed for this, and all the “furtive” techs are only adaptations……….close to an yurofigther…….(then comes the yuro-fanatics and sais that the yuro is superstealth :rolleyes: ).
“but the BS you’re shoveling is hilarious. Bwhahahahahahahaha!”
Ya……..reality and nature laws against arrogant miths……
thanks for the web direction…. but it has nothing new……..
BY THE WAY ANYBODY KNOWS WHERE I CAN FIND SOME PICS OF FACES DEFORMED BY OVERLOADS ??????-PILOTS CENTRIFUGAL TRAINING-
over Gby overg
“i dont say that the distance were of 30cm!!!, but are relatively close”
by ogami musashi
“if the CG of the plane wasn’t near the main gear then the plane would either fall on his back or be very difficult to control when you land..”
Ogami put in relative terms -and for take away about that bad canard configuration unsustained argument (in unstable design)-
“TVC is not used on raptor from mach 0.5 to mach 1.5 so you see…there’s no so much debate here.”
Rigth…., but you know, then come an Raptor fanatic and say tha the TV can be used at mach 3……………….
over G“if the CG of the plane wasn’t near the main gear then the plane would either fall on his back or be very difficult to control when you land..”
over GPosted by Skyhawk;
“Well it might surprise you but in fact many of the facts advertised are true.”
Pathetical answer………………………….. 😮
“I´m very sure about it. RAM has matured a lot since the first applications on german submarines during WW2. However RAM is not yet…” blablabla……..
Ohhhhhh comon!!!!!!………if i would said that the raptor has nothing of ram you had said that it has 100 tons of RAM!!!!!…..human behavior……. :rolleyes:
“The engine heat is not reduced by RAM. RAM is radar absorbing material, it is not used to absorb heat. In fact it transforms radar energy …” blablabla…..
Anybody knows that, the fact is that heat cannot disapear must go somewhere at the end it reach RAM, so the raptor turn in an high electromagnetic IR ligthbulb… other stuff would be that the engines has an very high redundant close termodinamic cycle, recyclining heat and increase the engine eficiency, but it has not such high, by the way where the exhaust nozzle point, eh…..hum……maybe………………..to all the lateral real fins-tail (maid mainly of RAM)??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
“EF or Rafale are not stealthy they are RCS reduced when viewed from certain (head-on)angles. The RCS………..”blablabla….
The stealth geometry of raptor is not as good like most people think -even in FACE”, its based in a box configuration, and again it reflex very poor RADAR to “secure” areas -upwards- especialy his nose, his “compact” design was made for supercruiser – if you has less surfaces in contact with supersonic flow then you decrease the drag- the f23 has a better stealth design with frontal relex to upwards (little nose with good stealth design) and separate intakes-nose (like Su-27) so their intakes “pylons” act as radar diffusors,but it has a troublesome supercriser design (much area-contact, and an high romboidal wing-much fatige and drag-) i admit that i dont know how the black widow performs in lateral stealth.
“The F-4 was not just a good airplane it was…” blablabla……..
Well its seen that you are an fanton-lover, i dont like the planes, i like the good ideas, good design and human imaginaton and creativity… 🙂 🙂 😎
Posted by Ogamy;
“About TvC, well the CG of the plane is close to the main gear system so this is not that close”
Wrong, please see the inflexion point of TV and you will find thar theyre close, also i dont say that the distance were of 30cm!!!, but are relatively close……., then you come with the tailplanes and say that the combo perform good……but i say that its an oportunity lost to an TV to do good the job (turn rate),…… but at least it can sustain high AOA….. :rolleyes:
Sorry, i cant reply to the rest of people but i will try to find a chance…….
Again…………..
Maybe its why whe have been waiting 20 years until this machine go to service active (if it goes)
And again………..
We are analising the f22 concept, or we are just JANES-USAF parrots ??????? 😮
BY THE WAY ANYBODY KNOWS WHERE I CAN FIND SOME PICS OF FACES DEFORMED BY OVERLOADS ??????-PILOTS CENTRIFUGAL TRAINING-
over Gaerospacetech
“70,000lbs of installed thrust is a lot of force”
Brutal force to reach agility???? something is going wrong……..
At least you admit the posibility of the raptor agility shortcomings….
over Gthe only answer that i read is you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong,you are wrong, give me some reason please!!!!!!!!!!!!
over GHello Seahawk, Flex, interesant posts, I salutes you 🙂 🙂 🙂 !!!!!!
Well lets make some enemies 😀 🙂 , !!!!!
Posting by
Seahawk;
“The reasoning that the F-22 is not a stealthy design is completely wrong. In fact the more conventional look of the F-22 shows that it is a much more modern stealth design then the F-117 or even the B-2. Which means with current materials, computing power and knowledge the designers could achieve there RCS target without having to make huge compromises on the rest of the design.”
Nothing new, it sounds like Boeing advertising……. 😮
“RAM itself only plays a VERY MINOR part in the design of the Raptor”
Are you sure??????, when people -even experts- talks about Raptor always said RAM here, RAM there…….you know……. then you come to say all the opposite…… :confused: :confused:
“RAM does not reduce the IR signature, in fact it does increase it, although only to a very small ammount”
So where goes the heat of the engine??????? let me see….maybe…….eh……uhmmm……………………..TO RAM? 😀
“Furthermore heat is transported from hot ections to cooler section through the use of the internal structures. Even the fuel tanks are used to cool certain airframe sections ” blablabla
Viewieng that in an overall perspective,well, maybe, maybe not (do you know about the 2th law of thermodynamics?????) even if the f22 is based in cuantical phisics –yes the raptor has extraterrestial tech-, you have components that increase the temperature and you have components that decrease,………..the overal result????? A MATCH!!!!
The raptor has that because an supercruiser plane have an high IR signature- a lot of fuel combustion to retain the “unnatural” supersonic speed- also draining heat from arround the engine drecrease the efficienc……… a better answer would be that the engine has a revolutionary axial compress ratio and an descompresed cover flow, i saw –in magazines- the raptor engine and its very very conventional –the only mayor stuff is the turbine adaptation materials at constant high temps-.
“. But the level of Stealth of those fighters is much worse, then that of the F-22.”
Yurofigter is average for stealth-at least it has low wing configuration, it makes the posibility for adaptatons, but that cilincrical fuselage dont help….
I think that is close a match obviously with raptor advantage, -read below-
“And who said that the F-4 was a bad design should really read a lot more info about the mighty Phantom.”
I dont know, but i think never said that, every plane that reach active service has some merit, america has build some very goog planes –f 15, f 14, f 5, f 16(even with falcon stupid mistakes)-,f86,p51,etc……- the f4 reach service so is an good plane,but it seen that you are a little suceptible about the fantom, so i apologise ,i don want that the f22-35 thread turns in a f4 discusion-not yet-
flex297
“I only have little doubts about Raptor’s superior RCS characteristics from SPECIFIC angles, including the one face-to-face.”
The raptor is not a stealth design, I said before that is an supercruiser design with some of stealth –I agreed Ogami-, in face to face is basicaly an hight reflexive “box configuration”, because the supercruiser requierements off an “massise design -avoiding drag- ” with an huge nose –homogenic shockwave distribution- without totaly upwards secure relexing ,modify to stealth (like the f18 intakes), is basically an supercruise-superhornet (well i know more advanced).
A question the internal bays are originaly sthealth or supercruirer requierements????? I honestly dont know…. :confused:
Ogamy i agreed……. 🙂
I WANT TO DISCUSS ABOUT THE TRUST VECTORIAL CONFIGURATION –NEAR OF THE MASS CENTER- AND THEIR POSIBLE LACK OF AGILITY………..
over GThen come the Marked Deartment and named ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡”THE SUPERHORNET”!!!!!!!!!!!
over GAbout the f18, the modifications were been made because the hornet had such side horrible radar signature -curved circular-rectangular- that the Boeing people put that patethical solution of flated inclinate surface -at that design you cant do more-
over Gaerospacetech, bring_it_on, Wolverine
Well you have your own opinion, but i dont see any basic design agument, we are analising the f22 concept, or we are just JANES-USAF parrots 😮 ???????
AGAIN (with some modifications)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i put some logic design arguments
F22 design shortcomings;
* close distance between gravity center-tail surfaces AND TRUST VECTORIAL(maneovaribility)
*An geometry that returns radar to the source -flated surfaces with negative angle-(stealth-radar)
*Ram components -radiation absorvent-(IR signature)
Maybe its why whe have been waiting 20 years until this machine go to service active (if it goes)-like the F4-
IN FEW WORDS RAPTOR WAS MADE FOR SUPERCRUISER BUT NOT FOR STEALTH
AND YES AN MODIFIED RAMED F15 CAN DO THE SAME STEALTH PERFORMANCE OF AN RAPTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (both has bad stealth) 🙂 😀 😉
over Gi put logic design arguments
F22 design;
* close distance between gravity center-tail surfaces (maneovaribility)
*An geometry that returns radar to the source (stealth-radar)
*Ram components (IR signature)
Maybe its why whe have be waiting 20 years until this machine go to service active-like the F4-
IN FEW WORDS RAPTOR WAS MADE FOR SUPERCRUISER BUT NOT FOR STEALTH
over Gwolverine, bring it on;
all of that “twin VS, intakes, engine blades which can be balantly seen by radar, external weaponary, no scattering, the radar itself, no effort to reduce electrical discharge, no IR reduction features etc etc etc” are details design, you could work well from an base design (f15, su27,etc..)
An modified machine dont mean an completely new one (su-27,34, f18-17, the xf15 etc…), also you forget supercrusier travels and supersonic agility, internal containers and other stuffs, i said and i will say again that the f22 shape dont work very good for stealth-his reflexed waves go downwards, again raptor nose shape vs su34 nose shape- the ram could increase the superficial temperature????
over Gwolwerine;
JAjajaja, im just a little exagerate with that f15 skin…. obviously an eagle would be modify (in a 15-20%-maibe), the “mighty” eagle has some design mistakes (lack of slats for example), but yes an modify eagle can perform in stealth as good as f22
over GHi Gdl,Oibu,Vortex,Bring :)!!! thanks for your postings 😀
Throw away the f22 myths, an lets the science talk!!!! 🙂 🙂
Well,what we have here????
POST
By Vortex;
“First of all, this might be a shock to some of you, but yes the F22’s wing is a DELTA wing, defined by 3D aerodynamics present at cruise AoA.”
Thas right, agreed, i only post that is an trapezoidal wing to get end in that specifical discussion ( f22 use an very angled trapezoidal wing = delta wing) –there are some more important about the raptor-
“Notice the F22’s forward fuselage is unlike most fighters and that the YF23 is also unlike most fighters.”
Comon Vortex!!!! , Raptor forward fuselage its the same basic “box” configuration off F15-Mig25…………Comon!!!! 🙂
By Ogamy;
“canards effects can be less bad than what you think on shockwaves.”
I said that an canard design is not the better solution at supersonic, not that an canard design is catastrophic!!! it has their plus and less, the BOEING-LOKHiD team take away the canards because mainly supercrusier requierements, in fact every movable surface is not good for stealth!!!.
“And you have to take the whole airframe to see if canards are that worth or not.”
Its not only by the airframe shape or structure or aerodynamics, the canards work especialy good in an unstable design -basic mechanics- i had explain it sometimes in my earlier posts -the fatal error design in the f16 falcon-, so a delta-canard configuration is not the magical solution in all airplanes again it depends.
Bring it on:
An HUGE post to say the same stuffs!!!!
The f22 has some of stealth techs, but it has some design mistakes, the raptor IS MAINLY STEALTH BY RAM AND NOT BY THE GEOMETRY, the main geometry stealth concept is reflex the radar in an “secure area” or weak the radar signature reflexing little returns in almost all directions possible, the best secure area is upwards in the high sky, the raptor has an high reflexive design, their elecromagnetic return is to downwards, only an example the Su-34 nose design is more stealth than the raptor nose geometry!!!!
“The shape of any stealth plane is made so that is EXTREMELY aerodynamic”, yea sure take a look of the F117……… 😉 -i like that faces!!!!!!!- 😉 😀 :confused: 😮 😮 🙂 🙁 😎 :rolleyes: 😮 😉
One question ……RAM are radiation absorvent material so……it would increase the surface temperature (energy conservation).?????
over Gposted by ogami musashi
“you can’t do generalisations because canards effects can be less bad than what you think on shockwaves.”
posted by over g
“but if you put the canard in the right place you increase the supersonic agility,-for the same reason shockwave-“
I dont make generalisations about the canard as you see, y know very well that the performance of an aicraft depends in their overall design, and not only by details, but you too cant make generalisations about the canads and their “horrible” stealth perdormance , again it depends of the overall design, but i want your opinion about the f22 stealth geometry contradictions.
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