Rafale fuel load chart, pic taken on the Rafale itself:

so there is well 4750kg internal fuel
and fuel density is 0.8, so 2000l is 1600kg as stated by OPIT

star49, you’re dismissed

even with 1600KG*3= 4800KG
1300*2= 2600
112*4= 450
Ur at 7650KG at most. Even if u add 500KG for empty tanks
ur still 1500KG away from 9.5 tons. so Ur Rafale empty weight comes to 12800kg in this case.
Paylons are part of the structure. and pilot weight is internal not hanging.

I’d seriously liked to have seen the R77 on the M2ks (as was rumored). Whether Israeli Derbys or French Micas; against Amraam equipped PAF f16 blk52 its too darned close although the Teen (Apg 68) suffers from a marginally lower detection range.

But still, IMHO this is a very comparable upgrade to the Mirage 2000-5/9 other than the Scalp. At probly half the cost.

Regards,
USS.

M2K9 was signed in late 90s. By 2007 Israelis avionics, EW, Radar should either match or surpass it with half the cost. Similar is case with MICA. Not new update. It seems Dassualt is only getting money for structural enhancement. No mention of thales or Snecma.
Very similar to MIG-29 upgrade. No premium for French technology.

…all five being capable of 2000 kg. While I’m at it : 2 SCALP/EG + 3 RPL 751 (2000 L) + 4 MICA = 8950 kg.
That’s 500 kg short of the maximum advertised and flying every day. Any more doubts ?

what is weight of Scalp? 3 tanks= 4500KG and 4 MICA=500KG.

I think Rafale is atleast 10.3 tons. thats why they are calling it in 10 tons class.
24.5tons MTOW= 10.3 empty+9.5 tons maxium external+ 4.7 tons internal fuel.
and I have my doubts about 9.5 tons external load out. As aircraft has only 5 heavy stations.

They will almost certainly make a PAK-FA-B for export. The Chinese and Indians will likely both want a version unless the Europeans drop their ban for military exports with China and decide to join with China to build a replacement for Rafale and Typhoon… of course based on their track record they might just end up with about 3-4 different aircraft that each country able to make such an aircraft (ie France, Germany, Sweden, UK) might devolve into smaller groups on their own and make their own aircraft.

yeah it will be for export but will the customer willing to pay the price that is certinaly 3 to 4 times of Flanker. and forget about EU there wont be any 5th generation fighter. there joint projects A-380/A-350/Galileo are bankrupt. China will definitely make a look alike 5th generation.

The F-22 is the only weapon the US has that the Russians can’t reliably counter. The Pak-Fa would give them such a counter. Building 500 Pak-FAs might just lead the US to build more than 180 F-22s and would probably be more counter productive than useful to Russia. Lets face it. The only real threat to Russia is the encroachment of NATO. Su-35BMs with S-400s and other existing systems would deal with pretty much anything Europe could throw at them. PAK-FA would simply escalate things.

They certainly needs 500 PAK-FA or may be more backed by bombers, IL-76 etc. the way Russia is making ring Oil and Gas alliances across Central Asia/Middleast/North Africa and making new ports and redirecting pipelines
they have do defend those from internal and external threats in fast and efficient way (Supercrusie, Ultra Long AAM/Radars) and that new Military doctorine takes these things into consideration.
I will not be surprized if one day EU wakes up and there is all of sudden Gas cut off or 100% price increase overnight. Just like IL-76 and MKI to China and India.

Investing in Russian scientists is not a waste of money, but there are other problems Russia has that could also use some investment and promise greater returns. The Russian aircraft industry can’t stand still. A replacement needs to be worked on, but this rush seems to me to be more detrimental than beneficial. Perhaps if the PAK-FA represented a generational improvement over existing enemy fighters then it might be worth the investment, but what Russia will be getting is roughly an F-22, and the US doesn’t really even need that… what will Russia do with it? A stealth bomber would be more useful but still a little redundant considering their current bomber force is not really being stretched either.

This is the most important project. and it lifts entire aerospace along with associated industries. US situation is different. they maintain 800 airbases and carriers and is not in business of natural resource monoply.
Russia needs airborne forces of Bombers , 400 to 500 IL-76 defended by PAK-FA for invading and protecting.

this time it seems more complete. Only change of engine at later stage.

http://www.kommersant.ru
First vice- premier Sergey Ivanov yesterday required to accelerate the work on the creation of new engine for the destroyer of the fifth generation. New by central board VVS Aleksandr zelin as the answer for the first time confirmed that the first machines will be completed by the motors of production NPO “Saturn”. But basic competitor NPO, FGUP “Salyut”, will soon obtain the possibility to take the revenge: in summer the Ministry of Defense will conduct tender to the development of engine for the completely finished aircraft. The cost of program several times more than the state financing, which is assumed to “Saturn”.
Yesterday military industrial commission headed by first vice- premier Sergey Ivanov conducted session on the creation of the promising aviation complex of front aviation (PACK FA, the destroyer of the fifth generation). According to participants in the session, which was passed to the closed regime, Mr. Ivanov required to accelerate conclusion of a contract to the development of aircraft engine for PACK FA, since “his absence impedes entire project”. New by central board VVS Aleksandr zelin (about its designation it became known on 10 May) in the interruption of session specified that on the first models of the destroyer of the fifth generation will be placed the engine of project 117 NPO “Saturn”. Thus, Mr. zelin for the first time publicly expressed, whose side assumes into to the being lasted already several years fight of “Saturn” and FGUP “Salyut” for the right of the development of these engines.
In 2005 the chief developer of destroyer, AKHK “dry”, selected by partner “Saturn”. But been by central board VVS Vladimir Mikhaylov continued to lobbirovat’ the development of “salute”. During December 2006 VVS accepted to the armament the transitional to the fifth generation engine AL -31F-M1 of “salute”, but only for those modernized Su-27. Versions AL -31F-M2 and AL -31F-M3 “salute” proposes for PACK FA (see 7 of 17 May). But yesterday Aleksandr zelin certified, that KB of “dry” created the destroyer of the fifth generation of the first stage precisely for the development of “Saturn”. The President OF JOINT STOCK COMPANY “united aircraft construction company” Aleksey Fedorov explained 7, that the first destroyer PACK FA must rise into air prior to the end of 2009. In this case in “Saturn” they recognize that the first stage of project assumes the modernization of the existing model of engine, but not the creation of fundamentally new construction. Therefore the budget of project financed by state is small, according to the unofficial information (project it is classified), about $500 million.
Much greater means will be directed toward the second stage of project – development of new engine, the more powerful by thrust and service life. According to the deputy of the head of the military industrial commission of Vladislav putilin, the tender in the second stage of the project of the Ministry of Defense will be conducted already in summer and on it will again compete BY NPO “Saturn” and FGUP “Salyut”. The second stage PACK FA is planned to complete to 2015. Purchases PACK FA will begin since 2010, first of all it will be stocked up on one squadron for the regions of the Far East and Caucasus. The financial parameters of project Mr. putilin to report refused. The number of the entered the program participants in the branch they refined 7 that the cost of creation and preparation for production PACK FA will compose about $10 billion, of them to the engine will leave $2-3 billion. I.e., basic fight for budget fund in “Saturn” and “salute” is in front.
As reported 7 source in the government RF, the sums of tender it is planned to bring prior to the end of the year, but everything will depend on the degree of prorabotannosti of the projects, which the participants will present. “both projects find on the paper, even not in the experimental finalizing”, asserts collocutor 7. representatives of “Saturn” and “salute” they confirm that they conduct the work on the new project even they calculate, that state financing for the conqueror of tender they will open already in the following year, since THE PACK FA of the second stage engine must be ready to the moment of certification

No stuctural changes; it’s hardly that VVS will have money for full-scale airframe production. Same applies to engines, old D-30F-6, or bit improved D-30F-6M meant for MiG-31M, still old components.

D-30 has already been improved for IL-76 and u need structural upgrades to carry heavier missiles and lighter avionics.

– Range of PGM’s that MiG-31F features, while it will have capacity to carry R-77E/M and whoever wins the ULR-AAM competition (Novator R-72 versus Vympel R-37M). Personally, i’d vote for R-37M, because it’s an upgrade of an proven missile, that was based on a long-inservice missile.

Current MIG-31 has never been associated with Air to ground weopons in test. Only news report is longer range air to air missiles that is entering operatonal service this year. and there is no long range AAM competition all the work is given to Vympel for PAK-FA air to air missiles. See the AW&ST.

– Cutting edge cockpit and computers. Sensory fusion. L175M EW suite, and OLS-35 optronics, same stuff like on MiG-35 and upcoming Su-35BM.

at best the cocpkit will look like Su-27SM. No big screen cockpit like Su-35 and new Flankers and Fulcrum does not share IRST from same firm.

– Radar; IMHO it will be ESA, a monster of an ESA. RF still doesn’t have capacities to produce AESA techonolgy on the MiG-31’s needs-magnitude, however, see what power Irbis has, and what could fit into the MiG-31’s nose and be powered from Solovyov powerplants. It will be the most powerful fighter/interceptor radar ever.

I doubt it reaches Radar power of Su-34 that is much expensive program.

Russia is honoring its terms. All agreements have various clauses built into them for either side to hedge against currency fluctuations, breach of contract, delivery delays, and various factors. In this case, Russia is exercising the first and “sweetening” the pill by not applying these terms on 40 fully Russian built Sukhois. However, Russia will be supplying some 10-15% of the remaining Sukhoi production in India, and wants to put a 5% cost escalation on the assemblies.
Both sides havent reneged on any written agreements, but will negotiate for their interests..the way it works is that India will offer sweeteners on some other project, and the russians will let this be.

maybe Russians knows that India is not fully capable of fully indigenizing MKI thats why they have to supply most of part of kits for long time to come.

Basically though, I think the russians overplayed their hand, the MRCA deal is not going to go their way.

I dont think so. there prices are very reasonable.