star49Pentsyir is i think some kind of funding from UAE. so there maybe a clause of not directly exporting to Iran.
star49here is my comments. First try to use quote function properly.
I think the article is wrong on many counts when it comes to the JF-17 and shows a lack of understanding of thinking within the PAF and the local tactical situation.
I think the recent report in AFM gives a far better look at the JF-17 purchase.
Just to pick apart few points:
Pakistan is looking for diversity in its procurement and the F16 is a fairly easy type to induct into their air force as they already operate it.
how it is easy to induct when FC-1 entered before those upgraded F-16. By the time they get F-16MLU there will be many more FC-1s.
Is that so strange? Look at how many fast jet types India operates.
I guess u havent see than ten times larger economy India. they can afford certain level of diversity of suppliers and for 4.5 generation even that is in doubt.
This is an interesting point at face value so I think we need to look at the background to the JF-17 a bit closer. Firstly much has been made about the joint American/Chinese Super 7 project but I think it’s fair to say at this point that the FC1/JF-17 is quite a different beast to that aircraft. Looking at the situation for the PAF prior to 2001 it is important to note that they were clearly desperate for a fighter with a BVR capability and there was no chance of getting more F16 with AMRAAM (or Sparrow for that matter) and there was virtually no chance of buying a suitable type from France or Russia. The only country who could supply to them at that point was China, now prior to 2001 the J-10 was very much an unknown and certainly not something that Pakistan could consider at the time. The only aircraft with a possible BVR capability on the table was the JF-17 and I think the PAF had little choice to move forward with it. On the other hand they would have a great deal of input in its development and it would benefit local industry. Since then we have had September 11th the war on terror and America has come back to the table with the F16, China is now considering offering the J-10 (an aircraft which is clearly an intermediate type for China). The PAF is taking a very sensible path by looking at all three types and they are putting far more emphasis on the multi role ability of each type. Its becoming very clear now that the BVR capability has moved down the priority list for the JF-17 now they can get AMRAAM equipped F16 quickly and I don’t think Pakistan intends the aircraft to go toe to toe with Indian combat jets but rather use it in the swing role replacing the Mirage3/5 and older F7.
When it comes to Su-30MKI. it does not matter whether u are in FC-1 or J-10 or F-16. they cannot fight it one on one basis. Just Airrefuelling of Flanker in mid air gives it enormous flexibility in dictating the fight because of its enormous fuel tanks and most of fuel is consumed during takeoff stage. and add to this the BVR shot from heavier airframe imparts greater energy. so it is not just detecting a fighter but using afterburners at right moment and use TVC to turn around.
I am not going into strike power of longer and heavier air to ground weopons.
I generally agree with Political content of SOC such long article.
The only thing dubious is J-10. the amount money and time that PAF is going to spend on acquiring J-10. they can easliy give a fraction of it to Klimov to uprate the FC-1 engine along with TVC. and try to put BVR missile on wingtips just like F-16 or better design CFT version of FC-1 as Striker
star49More idiocy from you.
The N001E radar unit nearly weighs as much as 300kg. KLJ-4 uses a slotted array that is much lighter than the twist cassegrain, certainly less metal used. The components on the KLJ-4 uses only less than half the space of the N001E or even the Zhuk-MSE, which weighs 230kg, which is lighter than the N001E. It is very likely the radar weighs well under 200kg.
The avionics on the Su-27 are heavy, old generation electronics. The ones on the J-11B are lighter and much more compact thanks to modern microprocessors. In the cockpit, you are replacing circular dials with metal mountings with much lighter LCD based MFDs with much less wires.
The only thing that you are true in saying is the number of stations. The J-11B still uses the same number as the Su-27.
The WS-10A produces more thrust than AL-31F. That’s 29,000lbs vs. 27,500lbs, or 13,200kg vs. 12,500kg. That adds 700kg of additional thrust per engine, for 1400kg of additional thrust. Add the 700kg of weight savings to that. If J-11B ever used AL-31FM1 (Salut still trying for that contract), that adds another 200kg, for 400kg of additional thrust total.
The Su-30MK overall is heavier than the Su-27, due to being a dual seater, having taller tails, addition of canards (add another 300-400kg) and TVC (add another 300-400kg). There is a reason why the MKI is slated for S1170 engine updates.
I am specifically referring to 700KG weight reduction due to composites.
u have shown WS-10A thrust(assuming it is no more speculation) but what is its weight? fuel consumption. If engine is heaver u need more beefup structure to support it. If u dont know these things. ur thrust is also paper specification.
AL-31 and 117S are of 1500KG class with same dimensions.
http://www.kommersant.com/p766081/fighter_jet_fifth_generation_PAK_FA/
Salyut general director Yury Eliseev told Kommersant that work there on a fifth-generation engine is proceeding on schedule. Furthermore, the engine Salyut is working on has a thrust of 15.3 tons, compared to Saturn’s engine’s 14.5-ton thrust.
star49The J-11B will probably last physically longer due to the airframe changes, but the radar and systems on the MKI is still better. But that’s okay for China because what matters more of them is that the J-11B better than the MKK’s which isn’t better than what the Taiwanese have and they’re not in competition with the MKI.
MKI is certified for 6000hrs. This whole report is dubious. Just look at weight savings of 700kg with composites. If u put newer avionics u alone can lose 1000kg. and no one reveals RCS reduction measures. I doubt it has 12 weopon stations like Su-30 or 14 like Su-35.
star49yes, tell them why 5 of the first 15 engines had to be rejected.
I don’t have to tell the rest of the world as they know the engine sucks already.
U dont have credibilty. how they are building the planes on schedule if engines are returned?. read the AFM issue.
it may have some other reason. And rest of the world is not listening to You anyway. India got license to RD-33 series 3 engines. So more RD-33 are on the way. U have to live with FC-1 powered by RD-93;)
What report. It is not there. I wonder how they are impressed with they beat the GAF MiG-29.
where it is written that they beat MIG-29 in physical performance? It has more to do withthere datalinks.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0208/FR0208d.htm
The Swedes, accustomed as they are to high technology, are astonished by the performance that is possible on the MiG-29
Have you ever really seen upper class? You have no idea who I rub shoulders with. Have you ever paid $1000 just for a dinner ticket to pay for some democrat party fundraising campaign?
why i have to pay some one.
You are the one who is in lala land, as if you think the Jewish lobby wants to invest funds on a country that is historically–no even in prsent time—that has prejudiced against Jews? There is a reason why Jews left Russia and are still leaving.
Again ur deeply mistaken. it is not just about Jews but extends to Arabs and Turks. The elites loyalties are not to some country or religion but to the system where they can convert Billions into Trillions. West was the abvious choice for past 100 years. Now it is Russia turn.
Jews/Oil rich Arabs were against Russian communism because they couldnot make money out of it. They only think about there Private wealth.
http://www.kommersant.com/p742451/r_527/foreign_policy_Middle_East/
Russia among Its Own
u should understand this thing. It is Russia wealth that is making its enemy its freinds.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=27452
Where is your vast army of rich Russian immigrants trying to reinvest in the country, huh? I know an American in Russia married to a Russian wife, and he works for a translator there. He said life is hard and looking seriously to return to the US
and i have seen chinese working in Resturants so? what this has to do with Upper class. here is some more for you.
http://english.people.com.cn/200606/07/eng20060607_271750.html
So what? Russia is a software power now?
It seems ur extremely jealous now.
Yeah with the help of the US. how is this impressive by the way? Will it help human quality of life?
offcourse.when u understand science.
Oh any Russians there?
why would be Russian in every group. they are rich enough to convert theory into practice by themselves.
http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/exclusive/29.html?mode=9&title_style=exclus&others=2&id_issue=11714823
Skłodowska studied mathematics, physics and chemistry at the Sorbonne. (Later, in 1909, she would become the Sorbonne’s first female professor, when she was named to her late husband’s chair in physics
Now tell me who created this?
That still is not certified. Just because it is fitted on a prototype does not mean certification.
Flying test beds in Sukhoi and MIGs are not prototypes. they are actual fighters doing real tests undercondition.
http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/
It is not 1 million but 1.3 to 1.4 million and that is 1.4% of your population base. Yes that is quite big.
It is 1 million. Ur Chinese are misrepresenting statistics
BS. The article has straight figures.
It is journalist opinion. He cannot have access to figures.
Go ahead. I can mention a lot of things that were stupid with the Russian military, like the way they train fighter pilots. In Vietnam War, the Vietnamese disregarded what the Soviets thought them.
that was Soviet System with 15 republics thinking. which was clearly wrong even Afghan war.
Liar and I know you just lied through your teeth. You really have not travelled to many US and Asian cities because many of the top end real estate is still owned by Japanese, like the office buildings. If they’re not Japanese, then its Korean or overseas Chinese. Even mainland Chinese are grabbing properties here and there. Where are the Russians?
why should i name these. but Asians are no where. Asians simply cannot have $100m homes. and most of properties are owned by Private equity groups.
You are an idiot. Hong Kong is a self administrative region, which means China does not pay for its expenses and the money Hong Kong makes, Hong Kong keeps. Why do you think it has a seperate foreign reserve of 113 billion and over for its own? Hong Kong is a country within a country, and runs completely everything on its own with the PRC flag on top for decoration.
So why all chinese IPOs come to Hongkong if it was separate why not go to Tokyo?
profit tax is the same as the US. So nothing different there, except that US has a lot of exemptions. Aliens are taxed 30% in Russia no matter what. Wow. Maybe you tax some people less because you tax businesses much higher.
DO u even figure out energy costs? which are lower in Russia than rest of industrialized world.
VAT applies for every transaction. Your income tax is still varied. 13% is not applied to everyone, perhaps just the poor.
You lied about the taxes.
13% is fixed income tax rate. no matter what the income is.
Bull. Japan is far ahead of Russia in everything dealing with electronics, communications, cars, and computers. Not to mention medicine, building and infrastructure construction. Anyone can see the obvious which you are in such denial of, that its so laughable. Do you have photo etching equipment for microchips? eh? Do you have robotic assemblers? Do you have five or six axis milling machines?
Can Japan send a Man to Space? Can it has its own Space navigation System? Can it make its own Transport Planes? Passenger Planes? AWACS?SSBN? ABM?ICBMs? Space Tracking stations,Floating Nuclear Reactors. Computers u must be Joking?
Does it own Natural resources in 15 other countries also? Russia has got so many licenses that it has shortage of petroleum engineers. Japanese wealth cannot win even dirt poor North Korea. and I can show u the list of Countries which Russia bought (which were thre enemies in the past) with its money. It is real money backed with Power.
star49That’s what I said, there is no way 1 or 2 plane can get delivered by end of 2008 when they just started negotiating for the plane. No deal has been signed at all. I did not argue anywhere against 36 planes coming at end of 2008.
This J-10 and PAF have been in the news for past 4 or 5 years. u can check June 2004 AFM. J-10 evaluation is mentioned. So it does not seem some unknown thing.
again, I never argued against PAF might get AL-31F with J-10. The deal has not been signed. How would I know what engine it’s going to get. I argued against Pakistan can get the plane by end of 2008 or 2009, because they just started the discussion.
why would be it so difficult for 1 or 2 planes. J-10 is i believed further developed than FC-1 with similar avionics level. here we are not talking about
multi vendor integration of some high end stuff. At most medium tech.
It’s stated by L-15 developer that new JL-8s are using WS-11 and that they are not as powerful as the export engines in an interview. Again, the original argument was not about how good WS-11 is, but whether or not JL-8 is using domestic engine.
this pure nonsense. I dont think Hongdu has the money to integrate 3 kinds of engine on same plane.
I’m talking about the second hand Spey that we got in the 90s, so they were most likely built in the 70s or 80s.
This completely illogical. The F100 engines built in 70s are either retired or 3 times expensive life extension programes. Spey is alot worsed than that. so it is either not used or just another baseless speculation. u should know AL-31 was considered for JH-7 in an around 2001 but cost of integration was too much. I will try to find that story i have misplaced it.
well, since you are giving this lecture to AVIC, why don’t you ask sukhoi why they are getting a Snecma engine for RRJ instead of a pure Russian developed engine? Or why a civil helicopter like ANSAT is using P&W engine?
when Sukhoi started RRJ in 2001-2002. They simply dont have the money to built every thing in house from Engines to FBW to Glass Cockpit so they have to bring Western investment on risk sharing basis and domestic market was also not high end to absorb this kind of plane compared to An-148/Tu-334. So they tried to built for export primarily that has Western Supplier credibility with 24 hr service centers in EU and US like Alenia and Snecma but now situation has completely changed. and now Domestic demand is enough for 1000 planes atleast and they have moved to MS-21 with Supercritical all composite wing.
star49Who cares. RD-33 is a smokey and unreliable engine.
tell this to FC-1 team first and than the rest of the world.
What is your source that the Swedes were ever impressed with the MiG-29, when the Gripen owned it.
It is cleary written in Flagrue report. I dont have to repost so many times.
Does not matter.
Bull. Show me total capitalization of Gazprom vs. Toyota. Why don’t you actually check Russian immigrant wealth against Chinese ones. Chinese immigrants literally control the wealth in Southeast Asia, and along with Indians, the most prosperous immigrant community in the west coast of the US and Canada. Just count the sheer number of Silicon Industry companies with Chinese and Indian faces.
Surely u know nothing. these are the middle class of America at best. u havent seen upper class. so how u know who has wealth?
have u seen any building on this planet sold for $4B? that is the hidden wealth that controls everything.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/b747260a-ffe4-11db-8c98-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2Fb747260a-ffe4-11db-8c98-000b5df10621.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fnews%3B_ylt%3DA0oGkjKKSUlGIsEAgkdXNyoA%3Fp%3DYukos+sale
The last bankruptcy sale of Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s Yukos ended in mystery on Friday when an obscure company bought an auctioned lot including Yukos’ headquarters building for almost $4bn, in what looked at first glance to be the most expensive property deal in recent history
Lol China still has the highest FDI rates in the world, followed by the US. Jewish lobby in the US is not BACKING Russia but investing in Israel. You think that the Jews, after having been prosecuted in Russia for so many times, have sentiment with that country?
U have to understand alot deeper before u know these things. Jewish lobby is on all sides but pretend to be on one side.
You are the one who don’t understand anything, just how much wealth is in the Far East. China got its technology from all over the world, little of it actually from Russia outside of the military circle.
Surely China got every thing from West but from where West got everything?
First u have to make theoretical foundation than U have convert it into mathematical equations than u invent things using material sciences. This is long way to go before things are invented.
Offcourse u havent heard of Software power of current generations. Just look at IBS software in Boeing. five figures salaries were common a decade ago for software speciallist.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2157975.stm
Researchers at the world’s largest aircraft maker, Boeing, are using the work of a controversial Russian scientist to try to create a device that will defy gravity The project is being run by the top-secret Phantom Works in Seattle, the part of the company which handles Boeing’s most sensitive programmes.The head of the Phantom Works, George Muellner, told the security analysis journal Jane’s Defence Weekly that the science appeared to be valid and plausible
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1995/ionosphere.html
US, Russian Scientists Report Important Data on New Way to Map the Sky
Scientists involved in the experiment are from Haystack, Moscow State University, the Polar Geophysical Institute in Murmansk, and the US Air Force’s Phillips Laboratory in Bedford, Mass
Russian Science is very deep at Fundamental level. looking for superpure materials.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/53713.html
US, Russian Scientists Create Super-Heavy Element 118
I am not going into Nasa Ames research and other space stuff.
Maybe you should check who has the bigger TOKAMAC now eh?
I posted two decades old article. u havent heared about Closed Cities and Research unknown to the rest of the world.
As for the rest of your articles, a lot of it is marketing nonsense. YOu have no idea if Asian women can be Siberian or coming from the former Soviet Union republics. Asians build the biggest buildings in Moscow. not just workers, but construction companies and engineers too. So why can’t you build modern sky scraper on your own? As for women, remind me next time when you go to Roppongi red district in Tokyo and you will find lots of Russian prostitutes there.
they can be of any east euroepan origin. and i dont want to embrass u with Asian immirgration. u are in big denial.
Euler is German, Marie Curie is polish, and Alfred Nobel is Swedish. Seems to me you want to take credit for things you don’t invent. Now that’s getting to be really pathetic.
they are all European but they all got some thing very important from Russian Science. thats the point.
PAK FA is currently marketing hot air. It’s not hard to spew numbers you cannot empirically demonstrate live to a customer now.
I am only referring to Su-35 engine in PaK-FA thread that i just posted. nothing to do with PAK-FA engine.
1 million is still far too big for a country with this low industrial GDP (less oil and mineral revenues).
5 million used to include a lot of non Russians.
1 million is not big for country with u think logically. It is 145million population with 20 million extra illegals and they have bases in former republics also.
Does not sound like the military is genuinely reformed.
The articles written by this person has zero credibility. he simply cannot digest 80% popularity of Putin.
And yet China did many things like getting rid of PLA private businesses and transferred civilian control duties to PAP.
I can show u alot of things that seem so stupid about Chinese military. It seems they are stuck in 19th century.
You are the one who is completely deluded to think that Russia is richer than Japan.
Actually i am well travelled person. I know alot of things. especially very high end real estate in many different countries. Japanese are nowwhere to be found. they simply cannot survive outside there own companies and localities.
Global wealth is some thing eles.
It is first time Moscow has beaten Wall Street in wages.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=arvBIGUV7HIo&refer=home
Moscow Bankers Get $7 Million Payday, Double New York AverageBy Elisa Martinuzzi and Todd Prince
May 14 (Bloomberg) — Within a mile of the tomb of Vladimir Lenin, who vowed to destroy capitalists, investment bankers in Moscow are now earning double the pay of their counterparts anywhere else.
Income taxes in Moscow are 13 percent, while anyone who earns more than 42,055 pounds ($83,700) in Britain pays 40 percent.Industry recruiters at RosExpert estimate that about 150 senior corporate bankers work in Moscow, compared with more than 1,000 in New York. Top dealmakers in New York, still the world’s financial capital, can take home as much as $20 million, including bonuses that depend on the fees they generate for their firm, according to Options Group
Which is true of Hong Kong.
Hong is not a country why it needs taxes. and VAT is every where just like Sales tax.
Your profit tax is as worst as the US ,and your VAT is much higher than Europe.
Profit tax is not worse. when u dont know short term and long term capital gains distribution and corporate tax.
You have no idea that a lot of this is still very expensive. VAT rate of 20%?That makes me sick.
what about Income tax than? VAT only applies when u buy things. u have pretty much outside world to store ur wealth.
How do you expect to maintain the still bloated armed forces? You have no idea where the Japanese invested their 900 billion in reserves, and its not all in Treasury Bonds but also in Eurodollar and other assets.
I know that money exclusively used to support US treasury. They didnot have control on there wealth because this wealth does not belong to them to begin with.
The thing is, Japanese make their money out of intellectual labor and skill, and all you do is pump oil from the ground. Heck you don’t even have the technology to do that without benefit of Western company help like Schlumberger.
Offcourse. Japanese do things to make money by selling stuff at Retail level. that is there level of Science. Japanese simply dont have the financial muscle to do this kind of things in opposition to West because they are so much depended on West. it means there wealth is bogus.
star49DID YOU PUT that article with date as end of 2008 or not? ANSWER ME. DON’T EVADE THE QUESTION!
It’s clear nothing. They just started negotiating the deal. There has been no agreement. J-10 can’t even supply PLAAF fast enough, how the heck can they deliver in 2 years? PAF can want J-10 as much as they want, it ain’t going to be make a difference.
here is the exact english version. Now where it is written that all 36 planes will come by end of 2008. it can be a Single or two plane. so based on that u cannot dismiss the whole article when Russian version is giving much later date.
Islamabad will soon sign a contract with Beijing on the purchase of 36 J-10 fighter jets (otherwise known as FC-20) for delivery by the end of next year.
What the heck are you talking about? Why are you bringing what Pakistan wants from Russia? I never said Pakistan doesn’t want to buy stuff from Russia. where did I say that? My entire argument against the article all along has been that the part on J-10 delivery date and number is incorrect. Yet, you put in accusations saying that I argued Pakistan doesn’t want Russian hardware, when that was never my point or belief.
Read the whole Kommersant article which states Choppers and Dual use stuff is allowed. So only J-10 engine is left. which directly goes against WS-10.
It’s not illogical. There is this thing called arms embargo that prevents western engines from being used on Chinese military jets that you apparently missed out on. So, they had to use the less powerful WS-11 for domestic versions. That’s why they are using imported engine for export K-8.
I want to find that domistic engine for K-8. Export is irrevlant. And here we are talking about the lowest parameters in engine technology.
You used old as an excuse for RD-33 being smoky and unreliable. So, I brought up another old engine, Spey, that has been extremely reliable in plaaf service despite the fact that they are second handed.
I never said that RD-33 is unreliable be it old or New. it just had short life in Past and than u bring Spey engine for comparision without Knowing RD-33 service with PLAAF. u can only make logical comparisions with same time frame and same price. like Spey built in 2003 with RD-33 built in 2003. Not the RD-33 built in early 80s with Spey service in 21st century.
military is different from civilian in China, PLA strives to be as fully indigenous as possible to guard against arms embargo and such. Whereas commercial projects like ARJ-21 faces no such constraint.
It is about viability and profits of enterpize. when u import components from higher wage countries with there profit in built u not only unable to learn anything but make cost escalation than u have to make creative leases to sell it airlines which creates further debts.
star49so basically, you now admit the article that you posted is translated incorrectly. Where has it been proven wrong. You post an article and I say that’s inaccurate. Now, you tell me there is another source? Why don’t you post the one that you think is correct first?
I can tell you late 2009 is a wishwash too. Again, have you ever heard of a deal for 40 fighters (not 36 as posted) that took just 2 years from the discussion started to the first set of deliveries? Especially when there has not been any previous export version of that fighter and the buying country is inducting 2 other classes at the same time? You don’t use the basic logic, do you?
what ever the dates and end numbers are u were illogically linking avionics with engines. and from AFM reading of JF-17. it is clear they want to complete procurement around those dates.
What the heck are you talking about, I wrote this.
“well, this article is clearly just rubbish. They have just started the talk on the purchase of 40 (not 36) J-10s and according to star49, that means the journalist must be right here.”
u are just playing with numbers. pakistan already has Ukranian armour and Russian transports so what else they want directly from Russia. the answer is quite abvious
commenting on this.
“If the delivery is to be done till end of 2009, I fully believe the exported 36 J10 will not be powered by any more Russian engine, it’s not up to Russian’s decision to export AL31FN to Pakistan or not but till that time, China is able to provide enough WS-10A for J-10. As the integration of WS-10A to J-10 is happening now, this year, the CAC is doing the job, and by 2009, it’s in time to supply J10 with Chinese developed WS-10A.”
I was clearly talking about this section of the article that you posted.
thats depends on ur belief that actuall news regarding integration of WS-10A
is true and WS-10 is not just another name of AL-31 otherwise why would Pakistan alll the time approach Russia.
I don’t have exact figures on how many JL-8s there are. And why should China mention anything if they are not getting exported? It’s on huitong’s site if you are wondeirng.
So u dont have the numbers. so it means u were just speculating and it is illogical that for Export ur importing engines from higher wage countries and add to that transportaion cost and engine manufacture profit.
I did not say anywhere that RD-33 is equipped with plaaf. You asked for a smoky Russian engine, I told you a smoky Russian engine.
U said unreliable and than starte Spey comparions which no one in world is going to use but RD-33 can be used in Africa.
why would China be getting your Russian FBW, if they developed their own quadriplex digital FBW already and has already been used for years and shown its reliability on J-10?
thats again questionable. FBW design could be from Israel or Russia and Russia say they have much more contributions than engine. and u can see these things with importation of componenets for ARJ-21. if u can do J-10 FBW u can do alot of other things.
star49400 hours only? with 10% derating you managed to get it up to 800 hours. Do you know what 10% of derating does? That’s only 7500kg of thrust (same as the Rafale’s engine). But the Rafale’s engine runs with a similar life as most Western engines do, up to 4000 flight hours and do it for a lesser weight
400 hrs were its actual life but it does not mean it would crash due unreliability. it is just replacement problem. and M-88 got certification in 1997 15 year later than RD-33 and that with using all latest R&D equipment like superfast computers available to French without that there wouldnt be any M-88. See the difference.
star49bull. There is never a true successful model of what you are describing anywhere in the world, other than the deregulation of AT&T. Chinese model applies, especially when they have more funds, more investment opportunity and an aggressive entrepreneural culture.
I have yet to see a world class civil product come out from Russia’s military industrial complex companies.
I have yet to see anything Chinese indigenous product. u can see Kamaz truck that won 5 out of 5 of Paris dakar rallies. Japanese spend fortune in 1980s with Mitsubishi to achieve this in SUV class. so where was Chinese machinery? and all those IL-76/MI-17/Flankers/MIG-29 that takes thousands of hrs every day accros the world. Are they not world class?
K-8 and L-15 uses domestic engines. China’s ZTZ-99, which is superior to the MBT-2000, uses a domestic 1500hp diesel engine.
China cannot make superior engine and tank to Ukraine let alone Russia. 1500 is just paper specification with questionable reliability in actual desert operations.
Chinese sources and leaks mentioned the 100 plane threshold was already passed last year.
Non mainland Chinese sources like KANWA are just speculating and has no evidence to back their numbers either.
Chinese sources and leaks? what is there credibility.
Oh you mean like the way the Russians change their serial numbers on the same aircraft and ship so often to inflate their unit numbers?
Except if that is the case, why would the Chinese censor their numbers often?
And yet the J-11 regiment of the 1st Division does have an aircraft with a bort number of 32. A PLAAF regiment consists of anywhere from 20 to 40 (50) aircraft, with 20 for bombers, and at least 24 for fighters. The Su-27 regiments started with 24, but apparently has gone up.The Chinese order their planes in regimental sizes, like the 24 Su-30MK2.
If chinese were transparent. There wouldnt be any call from US for transparency. They even sign contract with Russians to keep quiet. Which is laughable.
Bull, the Chinese do not congratulate themselves if it is a failed project. If they do this, they would be congratulating themselves on the WS-10 long ago.
I am sure Chinese will congratualate themseleves when they made Spey enginese for JH-7 which no one on this world is going to use and even rich country like Britain couldnt maintain it and gave poor performance.
star49No, F-18E is a lot heavier. F-18C has a lower TWR than the MiG-29 in paper, but the engine is a lot more reliable.
there was no F-18E in operations anywhere in world in 1995. and on paper where show me the specification.
I think you should be the one to prove how the Swedes were ever impressed with the MiG-29 considering how the Gripen beat the MiG-29 in exercises.
any source for that?
Lol. But they’re quoting things to sell. Quoting things to sell without checking the facts behind things (your Tarkshent plant unable to build the IL-76s at the quoted prices, Vorskhov needing another 113 million dollars worth of recabling) is patently dishonest.
When u have 40% wage growth in a year. It is almost impossble to find workers to build things. as workers are attracted to higher wage jobs not stick in government plants.
BULLSH*T. Russia buy Japan, you;re just completely DELUDED.
It is Japan that can buy Russia multiple times. Once you start factoring total overall wealth, such as values of companies, stocks, and real estates, Japan exceedsd Russia by multiple fold. No Russian company has the resources and values of companies like Sony or Toyota.
When i count the russian immigrants wealth right from 16th century and how much wealth they have. accross the world. it will be shocking. Gazprom is officially bigger than toyota in Market Value and it is still not fully floated.
U Chinese always claim that Chinese economic growth is due to Hongkong/Taiwan investments. Now what about Russian immigrants than? and that includes the most powerful Jewish groups on this planet.
U should understand this thing. The only Reason Japanese are sitting on earth but Chinese have Reached Space because of this. it was this old Bush decision that led to supply vast tech to China, India Cryogenic engines and Iran and which was reversed in 1995 by Gore-Chernomydin.
The Federal Government sees the Russian research as inherently peaceful and apparently has no qualms about aiding it. In contrast, the Bush Administration has quietly blocked the purchase of missiles, rocket engines, space reactors and other aerospace goods from the former Soviet Union in an attempt to cripple the Russian military complex so it poses no future threat to the United States
here is that Fusion that u started claiming Chinese did the pioneer.
The Federal Government is hiring more than a hundred scientists from Russia to help America harness the vast energy of nuclear fusion. Russia pioneered the field, in which powerful magnetic fields are used to try to tame for constructive use the kind of thermonuclear fire that lights the sun.
A tokamak, whose name is derived from the Russian acronym for a toroidal, or doughnut-shaped, magnetic chamber, uses magnetic fields to “bottle” extremely hot thermonuclear reactions. This type of reactor is principally being used by scientists around the world in trying to achieve fusion. Goal for 21st Century
What private wealth? Russians don’t have much private wealth, other than the Russian mafia. Ask any Russian why they want to leave the country and find jobs somewhere else.
and why than Millions of Asians working on construction sites alone?. Just Moscow has 300 hotels underconstruction. The tallest building in Euorpe is build by Chinese in Moscow. than go to Turkish Construction Companies. The oppurtunities are as vast Unitied States for Immigrants. Can Japan do that.
and Russians are the top brains in world. they will go where the highest salary is available. Very fast upword mobility.
http://www.antal.com/document_uploaded/JobHopping%20still%20a%20feature.pdf
It is common tosee CVs of “experienced” Finance Directors (CFOs) General
Managers and other senior management level candidates
with less than 10 years experience. In fact there is an expectation
of leaving university and moving straight into a management
role!
http://www.motortrend.com/features/travel/112_0612_frank_markus_in_russia/moscow.html
Next we head to the airport to sample some domestic Russian air travel en route to Russia’s third-largest city, Novosibirsk, which is located near the former geographic center of the Soviet Union. The journey starts with an interminable line for check-in, slowed considerably by a cadre of Asian women with so much luggage we presume they’re emigrating
Russian IPOs are only coming to London because of their oil wealth. And yet we are not sure about the basis of their accounting papers. They still don’t have that much credibility. US and UK markets are mature, so everything is pretty much maxed out. Excess funds are looking for investment elsewhere. Investing in Russia is considered high risk, because there is no rule of law. Putin says so, Putin does it.
Again pure nonsense. Oil wealth is in Government hands and similar is controlling stake in every IPO. Remember publc-private. when control is still with government than who want to invest.
Lol, what kind of Russian contributions are to Western science. Did you invent the electric bulb? The steam engine? The internal combustion engine? Did you invent the transistor? Atomic energy? Did you invent the radio? You can go through thousands of inventions, and Russians are quite a minority. Other than Sikorsky, I can’t think of much. Not to mention how Russians copied odles from the West, like Walter Christie’s tank suspension.
u are again u are seeing the end product. Where got Euler the German Mathematician which is the basis of modern mathematics did his work (St Petersburg)
Similar is Alfered Nobel, Marie Curies and countless others.
There is alot of theorectical knowledge that flowed from Russia on which basis West invented Stuff.
And don’t give me that BS that Asians cannot design things. A Chinese immigrant designed Boeing’s first ever unique aircraft in 1916.
and where he got education?
Guess who were the first to make fake roll royce jet engines.
that is blown out of proportion. They already have the knowledge base.
No certifiable engine again, unless a customer is willing to sign the contract and pay for it.
those days are gone for ever.
Because of inefficiencies with the Russian government and armed forces, a lot of money disappears with corruption and excess, overbloated payrolls, because you are not willing to take drastic cuts in manpower. This leaves little money for the procurement of new equipment. Thus many projects like 117 are not sanctioned by the Russian government, but are purely for export purposes.
That is nonsens. Check the PAK-FA thread. They even have higher thrust for VVS. and efficiencies and drastic cut in man power? from where this is coming from. Only 1 million armed forces are left compared to 5 million in Soviet times and all are concripts only 150,000 will be all Volunteer.
U are only reading that obsolete doctorine of PLA that is still using 5 decades old J-7/JH-7 and submarines, nuclear forces that belong to 1950s.
and u have serious problem in Measuring wealth. A country is rich when Country is either Income Tax free or government takes smaller percentage of Income tax from Salary. I know the answer but u havent provided anything.
and that $900b that u claim for Japanese are mostly invested in US bonds to keep interest low so people can buy there products. They cannot use that money like Russian where they can just buy Pipelines/Natural resources from Central Asia and sell it at higher price to West. Both EU/China were the end loser because they cannot bring cash to the table
star49What the heck are you talking about?
There are two issues here I’m arguing again:
1. “The Russian government will soon have to decide on the re-export of Russian airplane engines to Pakistan again. Islamabad will soon sign a contract with Beijing on the purchase of 36 J-10 fighter jets (otherwise known as FC-20) for delivery by the end of next year”
– Which is false, because they just started the negotiation, there is no way they can deliver export versions of J-10 to PAF a year from now. Now, clearly if they haven’t decided on what the export version is like, they can’t deliver the fighter. So, the point about delivery by the end of next year is not true. Even if they chose what the engine is, it’s not going to move up the delivery date if the rest of the fighter hasn’t been decided.
u didnot fully understood the article.
They may simply want Russian Fighers/Weopons/Systems. In that case J-10 deal is either OFF or there will be Russian Avionics/Radar like Zhuk-AESA/IRST in addition to Engines. and it is not necessay that Avionics are decided before the contract. they can do it separately. Rian did better translation into english. and it is kommesant source delivery late 2009 which is not unreasonable. so ur statement that Kommersant article is rubbish has proven wrong. and Russians can certainly make much more money by selling directly instead of getting only $164m from engines which will offend India anyway.
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20070510/65251879.html
Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz told Kommersant, a respected daily, in Islamabad that India opposes his country’s plans to start direct military-technical cooperation with Moscow and explained the opposition as old fashioned thinking
Pakistani leaders are now proposing direct military-technical cooperation to Russia
Kommersant sources said the J-10 fighter contract, due to be signed by Islamabad and Beijing soon, stipulates their shipment by late 2009
2. The engine that PAF will get with J-10 eventually is AL-31. I have not argued for or against this. So, if you want to continue with the argument, stick with 1.
first u claimed the whole article is wrong. but when i posted news from other sources now u change the position.
The header developer of L-15 said in an interview that they are using WS-11 for domestic version of K-8. Do you want the interview? I have it, but it’s in Chinese.
and how many K-8 newly inducted into PLAAF based on those engines. and why not mentioned anywhere for export for such a low tech engine.
again, I named you an unreliable engine. Which was what you asked for. It doesn’t matter how old it is. If it’s unreliable, it’s unreliable. Spey is much older, and China has not had any problems with it.
China does not use RD-33 in its airforce so how can it know it is reliable or not? and Unreliable means sudden breakdowns=crashes. which is not case with RD-33. u are confusing Reliability with maintainability. old RD-33 had short life and needs replacement thats why not easy to maintain but theywere certainly reliable as mention by German airforce pilot.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html
“The engines have been extremely reliable,” commented Raubbach. “It goes from afterburner to military power, without problems, at various speeds and under varying g conditions. I can feel the difference detuning makes only at higher speeds. We have many spare engines. We had a shortage at one time, but we now have a big supply. Engines do not represent a shortcoming for us.”
Right, I think I’d take the words of L-15 head developer over a Russian website.
offcourse. those are for Chinese domestic public. what else he can say just like putting Plate on top of IL-76.
star49Again, you don’t seem to be reading. They just started talking, avionics is part of the talk and they are going for 40 J-10s according to PAF ACM. They have to yet to decide what form of J-10 PAF will get and when it will get it. How can J-10 be delivered by 2008? It’s entirely ridiculous.
I have been reading but ur not understanding the point. There is no connection between Avionics and Engine. Just read the AFM issue. pakistanis are looking for Western Avionics and BVR for FC-1 but no alternative for future engine is mentioned? why dont they just get Chinese license for Radar. So it seems avionics solutions are always temprorary and depends on local requirement. Engines are permanent.
Now look at J-10 case. Understand the Keyword Maintain=Engine
Since China does not use MIG-29 so only J10 and Flanker has commonality in Engine. So J-10 export entirely depends on Russia. Either they will directly release Flankers or Let J-10 export and engine can named anything so not to offend India.
and Chopper issue started from them not Kommersant.
Meanwhile Pakistan is also eying the Russian defence production market. When President General Pervez Musharaf visited Moscow in February 2003, the Russians offered to Pakistan choppers but the deal could not materialize for certain reasons and now Islamabad has received positive signals from Moscow that could encourage it to buy some Russian planes. The Russian technology is very close to that being used by the Chinese and it would not be a difficult proposition for Pakistan to maintain such a system if Russians agree to supply Pakistan, the sources hinted. The Russian defence products are comparatively cheaper than the Western products.
Yes, but they have many export orders for K-8, those imported engines are for export orders.
Read the flightglobal link. Ukranain engines are for Chinese airforce. and u have simply no evidence of local engine in operational service. Even it would be better for export also.
http://www.hongdu-aviation.com/english/html/product-1.htm
you asked which engine is smoky, I told you one.
And i also told that FC-1 project is very old. so using old engines in prototypes has veryhigh possibility. and u overlooked this point from Motorsich AL-222 engine They are looking for upgrade of Engines from Klimov design. There simply no intellectual input from China exist for engine upgrades.
Talks concerning air engine repair, upgrade, and further operation were held with the representatives of Russia’s producer factories, such Klimov Plant FGUP, Rostvertol JSC, UUAZ, Ilushin Finance Co. JSC, and Tupolev JSC.
L-15’s FBW is local, developed with help of 603 and 611. All Yakolev said was that it gave assistance to the L-15 design, but didn’t say how much. Heck, if they are willing to sell the entire design and Hongdu can profit from it, that’s their own stupidity.
This is inaccurate. Read the word Designing. FBW may be build in China but intellectual input comes from Russia.
http://mnpk.ru/index_ing/des/
AVIONIKA is designing the following:• Integrated control systems: KSU-10M for T-50 aircraft, SAU-15 for L-15 aircraft, KSU-35 for SU-35
u seem to think the whole world is lieing and only Chinese can give accurate information.
star49can’t comment on that, but the J-10 stuff is junk, since PAF has said that they just started negotiating on J-10. They haven’t even decided the avionics for it yet.
what has avionics anything to do with engines. RD-93 was selected engine of FC-1 since 1993 long before anything about avionics. avionics change every year but not engine.
you need to check how many orders the K-8 series has. 80 engines can supply 40 K-8s max and that’s assuming no spares.
And those orders mostly with Honeywell engines for export.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2000/02/29/62658/egypt-shops-in-china-for-trainer.html
http://www.catic.com.cn/en/Product_Server/products_intro.asp?list=&Content_id=2469&TypeTreeID=1834
RD-33
Because few preproduction engines of Series-2 were provided since 1999-2000 for FC-1 prototypes with 1400 hr life. and this FC-1 has been on drawing board for a decade. So using old engines for prototypes is not out of question.
that is how L-15 is described. Engine/FBW/Design is foreign. Only LCD screen maybe local. 6 more engines were provided last year.
http://www.motorsich.com/eng/news/news-13.11.2006/news-13.11.2006
The head of the Motor Sich delegation, President of Motor Sich JSC Viacheslav Boguslaev visited the exposition and showed interest in its stands and the first flying specimen of the supersonic L-15 Hunt Eagle operational trainer. The aircraft is propelled with the powerplant composed of two ÀÈ-222 engines of joint Russia and Ukraine manufacture. This aircraft has been manufactured by the AVIC-2 corporation, with consulting assistance by the Yakovlev OKB design office. Its prototype was unveiled in September 2005, and it made its debut on 13 March 2006.
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