star49That’s old news. Where is the certification for your 14.5mt thrust engine?
this is not old news. It is may 1, 2007.
Sukhoi indepently confirm the characteristics. It is only waiting for Su-35 not the flying test beds.
http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=39554&cid=25
MOSCOW, on 4 May. (ITAR- TASS). The promising engine of “yy”S “will be established on the aircraft Su-35 already in the present year, reported the director general OF NPO” Saturn “Yuri Lastochkin at the encounter with the journalists in Novomichurinske (Ryazansk region).According to him, at present the engine of “yy”S “undergoes tests at flying laboratory” OKB of dry “, in process of which are confirmed the declared characteristics.
star49The Su-27 is clearly better of the two Russian jets according to those that have both planes, starting with the Ukraine. It is as if you never figured out that the PLAAF had plenty of opportunity to try out the MiG-29 themselves, and it is in fact, the MiG-29 that was their original choice, since the MiG brand name was all they ever knew, and they never owned a single Sukhoi in their history.
Su-27 is not clearly the better of the two planes. MIG-29 was built as cheap plane that was rushed ahead of Flanker into service..so it lacked the FBW and better engines. No one got the FBW versions with Single crystal engines like RD-33K so comparion is moot point.
The sustained rate of 20 degs for the Gripen in my book is quite excellent considering its low power to weight ratio. As for the Typhoon charts, note the fact that they have no commercial bias to promote the Rafale in the same charts, and yet they show it faster than most of the other aircraft in sustained turns.
Rafale has very limited fuel capacity and made with expensive light weight materials. Simply made a MIG-29 with same materials and current engines than come back for comparsions. Comparisions should be withing same time frame and same price range. u cannot compare metal aircraft with composite and not 20 year old. this just show ur limited understanding like 75KN is 8000kg by that logic 81KN is 8700KG and 88KN is 9500KG.
star49No its not. Just because things are shown in Russia does not make it operationally certifiable by export standards.
India export standards are far higher than China. Just look at Scorpene. Do u think IN would have signed without 4000hr certified engine for MIG-29K?
Even MKI engine is certified with 1000 MTBO and 2000hr life. Su-35 engine is 4000hrs.
http://www.irkut.com/en/news/news_archives/index.php?id48=120
The tests of the engine had been carried out in parallel, at the bench of its designer – “NPO “Saturn” in Moscow, and the series production plant – JSC “UMPO” in the city of Ufa. The results of the tests confirmed 1000 hours mean time to overhaul and 2000 hours assigned life that were declared in the contract. Besides, the tests confirmed the mean time to overhaul making out 500 hours of the controlled jet nozzle.
You have no idea that for example, the Chinese demanded the Su-30MKK pass through a series of certification tests in 1999 to make sure every single feature works, since none of the other Sues other than the MKI who did it later, went through these tests. That after all the BS of showing the Su-27SMK and the Su-30KI in public.
so in One year Su-30MKK pass all the certification tests in 1999 but now in 20007 when Russia is spending 10 times more one R&D and using super computers cannot do certification? or they are waiting for Chinese money.
MiG and Sukhoi has been proposing a lot of things since the mid nineties. How many of them are actually operationally and export certifiable to meet actual spec? None of that BS about rating 1000 hours MTBO, but you’re already fixing it major at 300hours.
See the MKI link for 1000hr MTBO certification. Now look at Salyut FM series they are now at 1500hr MTBO and 1000hr for TVC nozzole.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/01/213591/military-engines-russia.html
Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO), compared with 1,000h for UMPO-made AL-31FP thrust-vectoring engines that power Indian air force Su-30MKIs.
In December Salyut completed bench testing and received defence ministry approval for a 29,700lb-thrust AL-31FM-1 modified with upgraded compressor, digital control and the option to install an all-aspect vectoring nozzle. The engine has a service life of 1,500h and TBO of 750h and powers Sukhoi’s new Su-34 fighter-bomber, which entered service at the end of 2006
Salyut hopes the AL-31FM-1 will be selected by China to modernise its fleet of Su-27/30s, for which rival NPO Saturn is proposing its new 117S engine. Under a 2005 contract worth $550 million, Salyut and UMPO are already supplying an additional 180 AL-31Fs over three years to China to power AVIC 2-built Su-27SKs (J-11s). A separate three-year, $100 million agreement covered spares for engines powering Su-27SKs and Su-30MK2s purchased from Russia and licence-built
star49Your 14.5 ton engine is not certified in any sense for operational use, especially when AL-31F family life tends to be so short. You cannot seem to seperate hype from reality.
14.5tons is clearly is certifiied. if in Russia some thing is not exported it does not mean that it is not certified just like S-400 and PS-90A76 powered IL-76.
M-88 is 7.5kn, not kg. That puts the engine near 8,000kg for a weight of only 897kg.
75KN is less than even the old RD-33 81KN. so how it is equal to 8000 KG?
Latest Flanker/Fulcrums/MiG-31 are not operationally certified aircraft but prototypes. It will take years before they are fixed enough to pass strict OPVAL standards. Who cares about your BS? Rafale is currently operational. Your BS Flanker with 14.5ton thrust is not, and so is your MiG-29 with so and so engines.
MIG-31 is operatinally entering this year. so how it is not certified? and they have been testing it since 1999. Similar is Fulcrum from 2001 and Flanker engines from 2003.
and Rafale is operational with what? it does not even have MKI standard stuff let alone advance flanker.
star4914.5 ton engine is already certified for flanker and will be flying on Su-35.
and that engine is only the first stage. Second stage is 15.5tons and than the 5th generation engine.
Similar is with 9 tons MIG-29K/OVT.
Rafale has only 7.5tons engine. and i doubt all those figures of Rafale weights.
it is supposed to have 24.5ton Maxiumu takeoff weight. Similar is with EF. i doubt they can achieve more thrust without increasing the cost and lessning the service life. They wont be any TVC for next 10 years alteast. These aircraft are practically obsolete in front for latest MIG-31/Flankers/Fulcrums.
and most of fuel is consumed during takeoff (1.4tons) and gaining initial height. Flanker enters fight with favourable fuel.
star49It is not shown under what conditions like those tests were taken. and there is hardly 10% to 15% difference between aircrafts. It is not generational difference that will make a difference in air combat.
and EF/Rafale/F-15 type aircraft needs external ET to match Flanker range. It would be interesting to see how Flanker/Fulcrum with uprated engines, FBW, MMI and lighter weights faired.
star49hmm, 054A does not use shtil.
In 2006 Shtil was still exported to China. so what else ships under construction in 2006 that uses Shtil?
star49I trhink Doug wondered about your generation claims (Su-34 = 5 g & MiG-31BM = 4++ or 5 g).
I didnot made claim. I just posted the news item. Russian claims are like this
Su-27SM is better than any export flanker. Su-34>12 Flankers. u can see 3 MFD for Su-27SM.
That’s indeed funny that older aircraft should be in a newer generation than newer ones, or that a simple upgrade is seen as a complete generation boost.
It depends on kind of upgrade and original platform. For example IL-76 engines in D-30 version got more than 6000 lbs non afterburning thrust boost. Similar may be the thrust boost for MIG-31. afterburning may be more.
I suggest all to skip the generation bla bla. It means nothing and the views are to different. In the end its the aircraft capability that matters, not if it is a 4, 5 with + or ++.
Aircraft generations defines aircraft capability for that particular role. Gripen/EF/Rafale concept is obselete. the further computatational, communication technolgies improve the better MIG-31 becomes.
Lets see if the K-77M is ready earlier and if its performance is better than that of the Meteor. Speed and Altitude is important, but its not all alone.
u simply cannot make a missile like Russia can make now under capitalist system. there 2% immigrant scientist have more impact on software/semiconductors than the rest of the world. think about 98% rest of which top 50% works for defence enterprizes.
star49Is this a joke?
why it is joke? As radar and communication technologies improves. Turn rates becomes less important because elements of surprise is decreasing but Altitude, Speed, persistence that gives the greatest range to BVR hence first shot capability and ability to disengage after the shot.
MIG-31 had 200KM datalink based on 70s technology. I can imagine it should go many times now. and long range range OTH can give approximate location of target which can pass this on datatlinks. and after that it is job of MIG-31 to put full power of the radar on that area. so where is the element of surprize. even updated version of R-77 will be ready before Meteor with much greater range.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/frheft/FRHeft07/FRH0701/FR0701d.htm
Vimpel is planning to develop a much improved version, the K-77M, by 2010. A more powerful motor should increase its range by a factor of 2 to 3.5 and the improved radar will reduce vulnerability to jamming. The most visible change is the use of normal control surfaces instead of lattice fins, which reduces resistance.Russia is also active in the ultra-long-range area. Thus, the upgraded MiG-31BM will probably be armed with the K-37M (AA-13 Arrow), which during tests in the 1990s succeeded in shooting down targets at a distance of 240km.
The K-100 under development at the Novator design bureau from Yekaterinenburg, which Sukhoi has selected as the preferred armament for the Su-35 and the future fifth generation of Russian fighters, should have a range as great as 300km. Several test firings have already been carried out. KARL SCHWARZ
u can see 350MM active seeker which is bigger than 200MM for R-77 and 150MM for R-73 class.
http://www.agat.rosprom.org/prod.htm
star49Fulcrum/Flanker combination with old models. they should buy either MIG-35 or Su-35. $11b they are going to modernize. Atleast some should go to France.
http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=39570&cid=24
On its(his) data, the duty(debt) of Libya to Russia makes 3,38 billion дол, including 1,12 billion дол – on percentage payments
According to áÓ¼ß-TASS, in study with Libya there is still a lot of contracts which are not mentioned in the newspaper “Коммерсантъ
Libya already carries out military-technical cooperation with Russia. In particular, contracts on deliveries of the easy(light) shooting and anti-tank weapon are executed
star49The Russians have realized, that just two fifth generation designs are around. The F-22 and the F-35. All the others are a generation behind due to the lack of full stealth.
I think u have overlooked this part of his statement. Hint? Su-34= 5G.
The Americans are developing one more fifth generation airplane for its air force. It is called the JSF ((Latin letters.)) It means: an airplane which destroys aerial targets and carries out strikes. Our own type is called a fighter-bomber. The production of such a type of airplanes is intended for 2006
The semi-stealth examples are 4th generation and the rest are third generation. None prevent the designer to add some + for other features related to the avionic suit at first. So the F-16 is a third generation fighter with ++ for the Block 50/60 examples. Similar thing to the MiG-31.
Semi-Stealth or better turn rates does not equate 4++ generation let alone 5G alteast as far Russian are concerned.
When stealth is no issue in some kind of warfare or similar equipped opponents, it does not mean that that the fouth generation example is superior against a third ++ in general.
When the French claim ….., the British claim …. and the Americans claim ….. for example. One of the greates may be to stick to reality.
so what do u think Gripen Vs MIG-31BM? which one is 4++ or 5G.
High Speed, Altitude, massive fuel capacity, very big size nose, ultra long range BVR also makes a generational difference.
Gripen will virtually hopeless in catching uprated MIG-31 flying at Mach 2.4 70000 feet, lauching more than 300KM range BVR with more than Mach 6 speed. In tail chase it is virtually hopeless for any BVR missile.
Gripen/EF/Rafale simply does not have the speed, altitude, internal fuel capacity, radar power to have a decent shot on MIG-31.
u can see uprating of engines.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/01/213593/military-engines-development-thrusts.html
star49I am shure you never red what you wrote. Otherwise …..
And surely u understood what i wrote. and how is my description different from this.
here is Mikhail Simonov. russians called him the world greatest designer.
http://www.royfc.com/news/apr/0406apr01.html
-“How do things stand with the fifth generation of fighters in NATO?”
-“There is the French Rafale ((Latin letters)) fighter. They consider it as representative of the fifth generation, but in the event, it is a modified fourth. One of the properties of this aircraft is fiber optic control ((OPTOVOLOKONNAYA SVYAZ’ V DISTANTSIONNOM UPRAVLENII)). This means that in conditions of the explosion of an atomic bomb the airplane will not lose controllability, since the principally new system ((SISTEMA SVYAZI)) is not susceptible to the powerful electromagnetic radiation in a zone of nuclear destruction.
-“We have one calculation system, the French a second, and I am not discounting, a third exists, a fourth… Are there nevertheless universal features of a fifth generation?
-“There is the famous Janes handbook, it is called ‘All the World’s Airplanes. 2004 – 2005.’ Let’s look at a photograph of the French Rafale fighter. We see – the missiles are hanging on externals hard points. two – on the left, two – on the right. According to the procedures, the fifth generation fighter does not have anything on hard points: all armament is supposed to be inside the airplane. There are two belly tanks on the French Rafale. This also is not permissible for the fifth generation: the fighter is supposed to have an integral lay-out. But there nevertheless is a first fifth generation fighter in the world. It is the American F-22 Raptor ((in English)) airplane. It has both weapons and fuel tanks located inside. This means the fighter has a low signature ((ZAMETNOST’)) and corresponds to “Stealth” ideology, which in translation means “invisible.” That is the fighter cannot be obtained by radars. The American airplane is in series production today. In 1999, two such airplanes had been made, in 2000 – six, in 2003 and 2004 – 22 each of the airplane. The Americans are developing one more fifth generation airplane for its air force. It is called the JSF ((Latin letters.)) It means: an airplane which destroys aerial targets and carries out strikes. Our own type is called a fighter-bomber. The production of such a type of airplanes is intended for 2006
here is some thing about salary.
-“Mainly the payment of our firm’s workers. The average figure is 14,000 rubles. But there are salaries 10 times greater. Sukhoy does not accept people off the street today. We select students at the technical universities for a nominal scholarship. From the third year they begin to work at our enterprise, receiving half pay and not interrupting their lessons. On graduation from college, they get steady work, but in a higher category
here is 5th generation MIG-31 comparision.
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_apr1.html#14apr
“We are very satisfied with the results of RSK MiG’s work, and this year we will finish state tests of this airplane, and all the forethought which has been put into the fifth generation airplane will be realized in the MiG-31,” Mikhaylov said.According to him, after the upgrade, the MiG-31 “will have new missiles, fire further, with better selectivity, possessing a number a other improved characteristics.”
star49I have a magazine(not with me) in Swedish that says the Gripen walked all over the MiG’s. The German’s were rather baffled, as they couldn’t see how the Swede’s could kill from certain distances and angles. But they understood how later when they were shown the Gripen’s systems. They were amazed! This was the JAS 39A.
The Gripen’s aerodynamic advantages over the MiG-29 is clear. IF you read the previous posts. And this http://www.mach-flyg.com/utg80/80jas_uc.html The Gripen’s aerodynamic configuration doesn’t necessarily make it a newer generation, but its infrastructure on the other hand does.
Distances and angles can be rectified with newer radar, avionics, communication and weopons systems. and how infrastructure makes it into new generation? old RD-33 lacks FADEC and self diagnostic remote systems of newer versions. u dont have any aerodynamic advantage.
star49.
To read carefully. A working system was installed, but nothing more for obvious reasons. It is fitted to a double seater labeled MiG-35 and it is questionable if that was the related radar-testbed. The Russian sources give away, that this peace of hardware was installed in short notice into “MiG-35” to show something real at Bangalore. No word about a full integration and fully working system by that to demonstrate all features, but that something more real will start flight trials from May.
Non questions the possiblity that a capable radar with related software is at hand in 2014.
What is available right now gets the MiG-29KUB, when the ones on option may get the variant of that radar promised at Bangalore some years in the future.
ur report only refer to some future lighter AESA radar but it does not mean that current version cannot have quick delivery . 2014 maybe some time line for India not Russia as far as AFAR development is concerned.
star49no, they are part of China that Russia took over. Alot of the asian tribes that live there had to flee to the Chinese side of the border.
when did they part of China? Even old times before nations states boundries were defined by tribes. but it does not mean Tribes own that land. they just managed to live there before any other power. and Soviet Union should have anexed Mongolia as part of Russia. Just small population and rest of world has suffered because of Mongols in the past. Simlarly 70% of Kazakistan and whole of Eastern Ukraine also belongs to Russia becaues of ethinic, scientific, economic reasons.
It was Russia that played Great Game with British empire in 19th century. and empire stretched from Easter Europen like Poland/Finland to Pacific coast in one homoenous structures unlike small islands of British.
China was a small kingdom at that point. For making claim on another terroitory there should be reason like language, Ethinicities, Scientific base, Economic dependency. like USA can make a claim on Taiwan. because Most of Tawianese speak english, using US scientific base for modernization (which is again built by Russian immigrants and other Eastern Europeans).
Under Yeltsin, Russo-Chinese relations were very warm.. but under Putin, he says one thing but does another.
Putin is alot clever than Yelstin. He is making a Global alliance of natural resource countries for raising the price which directly contridicts with natural resource consuming countries.
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