And yet all of them added up up, do not come close to a fraction of what the Chinese had purchased. And except for India, which has just been burned for another $113 million dollars for the extra cabling for that carrier, none of these countries are considered long term consistent buyers.

that is again based on assumption that they need long term weopons export to begine with. They are fundamentally changing Militarly-Industrial complex to serve 80% of civilian needs. So u dont want technologies that gain give commericial competitive advantage in civilain field cheaply exported with military ones.

So what did Venenzuela buy? A couple of Su-30MK2s?

but it was profitable. $1.3B for 24 aircraft. u get money not only from aircraft but also from pilot training, new infrastructure, weopons and add to that cement position among nautral resource producing countries. Same is true

Kommersant is just voicing the Russian hope that the 36 J-10s PAF might be interested to order would have AL-31F. I don’t think the Pakistanis are going to be burned the second time. India may not be finished in applying the screws against Russia for exporting the RD-93, and so long that India has the capability to apply that political pressure—and they still certainly will—Pakistan cannot invest its eggs with the Russian basket.

It is not some wishfull thinking. Clearly direct confirmation with Russian Journalist and his source from Islamabad.

As it became known Ъ, Ministry of Defence of Pakistan up to the end of May should make a decision on purchase of a new party(set) of Russian transport helicopters Mi-17. Pakistan also expects to receive Chinese fighters J-10 with the Russian engines. Thus Pakistan is ready to adjust direct military-technical cooperation with Moscow against what India acts. It was confirmed to correspondent Ъ in Islamabad with the prime minister of Pakistan Shaukat Aziz who has named absence ВТС with Russia by display of ” old thinking
According to the Pakistan prime-minister, ” this principle should be we shall apply and to military-technical cooperation of Russia with Pakistan “. Mister Aziz has named display of ” old thinking ” attempts to coordinate prospects of cooperation of Moscow with Islamabad in the field of ВТС with a rigid Indian position on this question. ” For example, India buys the weapon from France, but we in fact in any way do not make comments on it “, – Shaukat Aziz has noticed
According to Ъ, Islamabad in the near future will sign with Pekin the contract on purchase of 36 fighters J-10 (known also under name FC-20) which can be put up to the end of 2009. By estimations of experts(auditeurs), the contract will manage to Pakistan in $1,5 billion, and on these planes engines AL-31FN of manufacture ФГУП ” ММП ‘ Salute ‘ ” should be put. Cost of the contract on delivery of motors, by expert estimations, will make not less than $164 million

No dude, actually the words ” That deal was approved by Russian President Vladimir Putin personally. ” betrayed your true purpose of ranting once more.

The actual and grosser picture was portrayed in other report titled China Lays Down Russian Armscarried by the same newspaper. It’s openly known Russians now start to complain to their Chinese counterparts about the more dramatically trade deficit, shrinking share of their arm export to Chinese and Chinese are listening because apparently Chinese now are not hurry to integrate the WS-10A engine into J-10, the news from AVIC1’s website confirmed CAC is working on the J-10’s improving version and by the past April, CAC has finished al the blueprints. Usually we will see the prototype next year that’s 2008 and only then we could see the WS-10A powered J-10 new version being formally introduced. However, based on your report, the PAF is going to get 36 J-10 by next year end, of course, it couldn’t being powered by WS-10A.

WS-10A is finished Design certification in 2005 and it’s in the so called ” small advanced” usage stage. Taking WS-9 as the example, it obtained the design certificate in 2002 but only passed the “ small, advance usage” stage in 2006.Probably some WS-10A engines have already being integrated into J-10 in a “small, advanced” user base for field trials, but no way, China is going to introduce a powerplant still in “small, advanced” usage base to customer. It’s noting to do with your confidence or not. If China doesn’t have confidence, Russia would haven’t made complaint for Chinese not importing enough stuffs from them as promised.

where in ur report it is written that Russia is complaining about shrinking exports? . They could only make money out of Soviet Stocks since Chinese negotiate to the point where there is no profit to make out of it.
the rest of stuff u wrote does no make even sense. u should read the stories in Russian and babelfish to english and see what that correspond got from all sources.

http://www.kommersant.com/p763776/r_529/military-technical_cooperation_China
In the 1990s, many Russian defense enterprises were kept alive almost exclusively by Chinese contracts. Between 1992 and 2006, when total Russian arms exports amounted to $58.4 billion, China took delivery of about $26 billion worth military equipment and weapons. Today the situation has changed. “Russia has significantly expanded its arms deliveries geographically, so there is no loner a critical need for Chinese purchases,” explained Konstantin Makienko, an expert at the Center for the Analysis of Strategy and Technology. Last year and at the beginning of this year, large-scale agreements were reached with Algeria ($7.5 billion), Venezuela ($3 billion) and India ($2.6 billion) and contracts with Libya (up to $2.2 billion) and Syria ($2-3 billion) being prepared.

It would not be in China interest to export J-10 with AL-31. it will complete loss of confidence for exports to other countries. $164m for 36 fighter engines.

http://www.kommersant.com/p764200/arms_trade_Pakistan/
The Russian government will soon have to decide on the re-export of Russian airplane engines to Pakistan again. Islamabad will soon sign a contract with Beijing on the purchase of 36 J-10 fighter jets (otherwise known as FC-20) for delivery by the end of next year. Experts say the deal will cost Pakistan around $1.5 billion. The planes will be equipped with AL-31FN engines made by the Russian MMP Salyut. Last month, Beijing reached an agreement with Moscow of 150 RD-93 engines to Pakistan by China. That deal was approved by Russian President Vladimir Putin personally.

I don’t even know why you are bringing up A-50 again, since this has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don’t know why are bringing up smerch, since that has nothing to do with this. I don’t know why you are mentionning what sukhoi got, since it has absolutely nothing to do with this.

And after reading the sources you wrote, it mentionned some Chinese ships equipped with shtil-1, clearly that’s talking about 052B. Now, if you are so good at finding obscure Russian sources, why don’t you find one that says Russia is exporting 6 VLU shtil systems to China.

these things have direct relationships as these things were not publicly revealed like this before. Specially aftermath of A-50. and they are not clearly hinting to particular ship that u seem to deduce.

http://www.idrw.org/2007/05/09/iaf_face_difficulties_in_maintaining_varied_aircraft.html
He said the Indian Government was also keen on indigenous production of warplanes and referred to the manufacture of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).”No nation can be a super power by buying planes from other countries,” he remarked

Atleast IAF former Chief is more honest as it is embrassing for a large country to buy arms from another country. India does not sign secrecy contracts.

Bull. Answer the question. Where is your MiG-29M at the Soviet era?

I clearly said development was complete. I didnot said that it was ordered by Soviet Airforce just like MIG-29K of that time. Soviet airforce has alot of choice and time. they didnot need Multirole fighter that badly.

More bull from you. You don’t even have the MiG-29M of 1986, and that’s certainly not the MiG-29M of 2011. The engine may have been improved, but not the aerodynamics.

Why dont see clear statements by MIG that Aerodynamics were improved even in 1986 and now further in 21st century.

You are just a hypocrite. Somehow, 4700kg of internal fuel is not enough for the Rafale, but 4600kg of fuel is enough for the MiG-29, despite having more weight on the MiG-29 and have less efficient engines.

That 4600kg fuel is for mid 80s MIG-29. It has nothing to do with current MIG-29K/MIG-35. more weight/less efficient engines? any proof for that. show me range of Rafale on interanal fuel? Even in 80s RD-33 has more thrust than M-88. this 8 hard points old MIG-29M. current MIG-35 even uses 10 weopons stations on wings and certainly more fuel than MIG-29K.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/ruaf7.htm
A further increase in fuel volume is possible by the removal of separate take-off air intakes. Additional fuel will be also carried inside the wings, taken from the MiG-29M design (additionally, these aircraft have four hardpoints instead of three). As a result of these design changes, the weight of internal fuel would be increased to 5,600kg, with the aircraft’s range increasing to 2,500km without additional tanks and 3,700km with them

I honestly don’t think Sukhoi is honest. Figure out why they would hang a Sunburn in an Su-33 on display when the Su-33 does not have the radar for it, or hang mockups of Kh-59MK on the Su-30 in 2001 when the missile hasn’t finished development for at least five more years.

Sunburn is expensive missile and nothing wrong on displaying it and any modern zhuk/bars can do it. and how do u know about KH-59MK development. certain things are slow to release for export even if there development is complete.

Bull. This has nothing to do with civil or military aircraft. You don’t do structural composites on aircraft that is not designed from the bottom up on it. Legacy designed planes that had structural composites added are so internally modified, they can be considered as new designs, like the Super Hornet and the Japanese F-2. And despite this, both still suffered from weight problems.

Do u think Japanese/American can design a 4th generation aircraft without computers that are available to them. Soviets did it when they had hardly access to modern computers and software. there is just different level of intellectual capabilities. u have to read that history of Russian science to understand these things. Just look at those 10 million that fled to West before and after 1917.

Wrong. You just don’t have any common sense. Even MiG/Sukhoi has much better sense than you.

Trying to structurally composite a legacy aircraft just to trim some weight is not the same as the other things you mentioned. Those things you mention are EASY and CHEAP to do relatively, than completely overhauling the design of the airframe in order to accomodate structural composite of dubious benefit. You will have to go through a lot of stress testing once again, and in the end will cost you time by years, and a project by the billions. Not to mention retooling your production line, and retraining your workers. Its not worth the time and effort, when you can simply improve the thrust to weight ratio by increasing engine output.
With legacy jets, you can improve the weight so much, replacing metal with composites on the SKIN.

And its more difficult on Russian jets, because their airframe uses more titanium than anyone else, and titanium is pretty light and strong, and Russian mastery of titanium metallurgy is on a pretty good level, and the advantage of replacing titanium with composite substitute is simply dubious for the effort and R/D expended.

u should put this common sense issue on one side. and it isnt going to cost billions that ur making into it. that is totally different method of Research and development. and that is totally different generation of composites for 5th generation. they are for 50 years and takes alot of stress due to internal weopons. No limitations on Gs with full load and Stealth across all three bands.
MIG-29K uses 15% composites. Did it price rise compare to MIG-29SMT?

http://www.royfc.com/news/jun/0303jun05.html
Moreover, he noted, “there will be fundamental movement toward the considerable increase in sizes in the design of the airplane’s composite materials.”
“These are the main directions along which we are working right now within the framework of the fifth generation airplane program,” M. Pogosyan said
Source: 03.06.03, Interfax-Avn

http://www.royfc.com/news/sep/2702sep06.html
However, in the creation of a high-speed maneuverable airplane with a KOS, a number of specific problems arose with reliability, inasmuch as such a wing is subject to strong torsion loads. Attempts to increase the rigidity of traditional metallic construction led to an intolerable increase in weight. Only at the end of the 1970s – start of the 1980s, when carbon fiber composites appeared, was a method developed for orienting the axes of the wing’s rigidity, which compensated by means of a twist of the cross sections the growth of bending angles of attack ((ROST UGLOV ATAKI PRI IZGIBE.))

Composite is the single most important issue both for aircraft and engine.

http://www.royfc.com/news/may/1405may02.html
The future tactical aviation aircraft complex ((PAK AF)) and the aircraft engine for it that are being developed should have qualitatively and principally new materials, the VIAM general director, Evgeniy Kablov, thinks.

In his opinion, the new generation aircraft engine will differ in principle from those that exist by the fact that the volume of polymers and metallic composite materials and ceramic materials will grow.

The new requirements for the future materials are stipulated by the though requirements for the aircraft engine – it has to obtain a qualitatively new ratio of the engine thrust to its mass. As of today, such a ratio is approximately 8-10:1, but the new generation engine should have a ratio of not less than 20:1, E. Kablov emphasized
Several years ago, in the opinion of VIAM specialists, the share of materials in the construction of the future fighter’s airframe was supposed to be: aluminum alloys – 18 percent, aluminum-lithium alloys – 20 percent, titanium alloys – 22 percent, polymers – 30 percent, steel – 5 percent and similar materials – 5 percent

Atleast 50% composites for civilllian airline.

http://www.royfc.com/news/jun/3006jun-3.html
((Article discusses fact that the new Unified Aircraft Building Corporation (OAK) will design and build an aircraft to replace the Tu-154 under the MS-21 project designation. Passenger capacity will be 130 to 170 passengers. It is believed 500 to 700 aircraft are needed by the airlines. Money already is being allocated for the design. The airplane will be at least 50 percent composites and electronic systems will be used instead of hydraulics.))
Source: 30.06.06, Gudok, Correspondent: Svetlana Komagorova, Leonid Grigor’ev

There will be further increase in composites in MIG-35 as it is from MIG-29 to MIG-29M.

http://www.royfc.com/news/apr/1601apr04.html
The MiG-29K fighter was created based on the multirole experimental MiG-29M, design of which appreciably differed from the serial MiG-29 and MiG-29S. New materials and alloys, in particular titanium, aluminum-lithium alloys and composites found wide use on the MiG-29K

The MiG-29M was nowhere complete in Soviet times.

what kind of nonsense is this. they didnot allow it for export in the beginning and later it was too expensive to build. and that every thing was down graded. U should undertand during Soviet times MIG was on higher grade than others and MIG-29M was among the advanced aircraft at that time.
it has 1900KM range on 4600KG fuel. and 600KM combat radius with full weopon load of 4.5 tons. Full HOTAS concept. Now the new MIG-35 has 23tons Maximum takeoff weight.

This JED August 2004 story.

In order to address the main shortcomings of the MiG-29 9.14, OKB MiG prepared new project: the MiG-29M (version 9.15), the designation “M” coming from “mnogotseloviy” (multirole). The airframe of the new version was based on the naval MiG-29K (version 9.33), with revised air intakes, totally rebuilt internal fuel tanks, and reinforced wings. The internal fuel capacity was increased from about 4,300 to about 5,800 liters. Under each wing, four stores stations were mounted: two inboard with a carrying capacity 1000 kg of each, and two outboard with a normal capability of 200 kg each. The maximum bomb load for the MiG-29M was now 4,500 kg. Eight 500-kg bombs could be carried under the wings on double racks, plus another bomb under the fuselage, in addition to four R-77 or R-73 missiles or a combination of both types. Range on internal fuel increased from 1,400 km to about 1,900 km, which allowed the aircraft with a full external combat load to achieve a tactical radius of 550-600 km in a high-low-high mission profile or 300-350 km in a low-low-low profile. The aircraft received an analog, active flight control system. The MiG-29M 9.15 prototype was first flown in April 1986.

The active control system–together with some aerodynamic changes (“sharp” leading edge of wing extensions, increased ailerons, rounded wingtips, and an enlarged horizontal stabilizer with a “dog-tooth” leading edge)–allowed the MiG-29M to achieve a 35-degree AoA, which was later limited to 30 degrees for safety reasons. To handle 22,000 kg of maximum take-off weight, the aircraft received a strengthened undercarriage. To save weight, the front part of fuselage was made with a light lithium-aluminum alloy. Another major airframe change was a larger aerodynamic brake, which was also moved forward to the mid-fuselage.
Even as tests were underway, though, further changes were introduced. The cockpit received monochrome (green) displays and the HOTAS [hands-on throttle and stick] concept was fully implemented. The aircraft was to receive the higher-thrust RD-43 engines, but since they were never built, RD-33K engines from the MiG-29K were installed on the second prototype, and the aircraft flew with them in September 1987. The last three prototypes, which were flown between July 1990 and July 1991, represented the ultimate MiG-29M variant. But the type was not ordered by the Air Force due to the collapse of the Soviet Union and serious financial restrictions
In June 1992, Russia decided to clear the MiG-29S (but not the MiG-29M) and R-77 (NATO: AA-12 Archer) active radar-guided missiles for export. The export version proposed was the MiG-29SE 9.13SE, although this type was never built. It was basically the MiG-29S with some equipment down-grades and provision for Western navigation, communication, and IFF equipment.

Bull. The plane was shot down, period. Thats a matter of public document. Check ACIG.

under what context.? u cannot compare a fighter having 3.5tons fuel with another on with 10 tons fuel when both hardly has any self defense suites. One can just wait for the shot untill the other one runs out of fuel. It is not Group fighting.

Hypocritical. When the MiG-29M has the same amount of fuel, it is considered enough? Like you said, the engines on the MiG-29 are more powerful, and usually that gulps up a lot more fuel.

this again nonsense. MIG-29M achieves 2/3 range with less than half fuel of Flanker and that with 80s era engines.

Bull. The Su-35 isn’t lighter than the F-18E, nor is it lighter than the F-15. No aircraft can be made with composites. The F-18E is also really a big aircraft, packign a lot more avionics, and it is a lot more structurally reinforced for carrier use, which the Su-35 is not. Plus much longer airframe life times.

Take Su-35 weight issue with Sukhoi. they said Su-35 is lighter than F-18E. longer airframe times? Just look at Sukhoi radar size, the larger wing. no aircraft can be made with composites?. Russians are converting there previous Tu-204 into composites one in less than year. I think u are living in past.

In your dreams. There is never a single existing aircraft by example that can be heavily compositized in structure (other than the skin) if it was not designed in scratch for it.

how long does it take to desing a legacy fighter for firms like Sukhoi since they use supercomputers now? the delay is in software and system integration not in structure.

You simply have no idea that you cannot install composites into an aircraft structure without seriously redesigning the structure from nose to end right down to every inch. You got ZERO idea of the cascading effect when you change one component, that such changes seriously affect the components next to the changed component, and changing these components to compensate means cascading changes down the line to every component connected.

surely i dont have idea. u dont understand digitally creating aircraft.

Its not a question of money, its a question of common sense. When you redesign an entire plane’s structure for what, basically the same aerodynamics, you also have retool the production line, retrain the workers, make massive changes to your support and maintenance infrastructure and procedures.

All factories of Sukhoi has done it for commercial jet and PAK-FA. Simply give them MIG-29 project. they will do it in months.

In the final end, you are better off, putting such efforts into a new generation fighter in the first place. There is no common sense to what you are doing.

New generation are stealth with internal weopons and there is common sense since metal prices has increased it is better to train entire aviation industry on composites. so even if a trainer is coming out better it is built with composites.

That’s not true from anyone who operated both planes.

dId they operate MIG-29M version which was virtually complete in Soviet times?

And just remember, the Su-27 shot down the MiG-29, not the other way around. In actual combat.

MIG-29 may have run out of fuel. U cannot judge aircraft from a single clash.

Nearly 4500kg of internal fuel and that’s very limited?

very limited for twin engine fighter.

BS. You cannot take a metal aircraft and think you can put composite inside the structure without incurring major stress recalculation and design. In other words, the MiG-29 cannot undergo composite weight reduction other than the surface. Go ahead and ask anyone who knows a bit more about structural engineering. And this has been mentioned in the boards already. heck, you cannot even change the alloy even to a lighter one.

It is impossible for the MiG-29 to be made of the same materials as the Rafale. You either make it with this or you don’t. If you already have a metal aircraft, the most you can do is change the skin, but the structurals cannot be changed.

how Su-35 becomes lighter than F-18E?. It is simply matter of money. any aircraft can be made of composites. today if Ruaf order new MIG-29. They can simply make it better than any canard delta in physical performance.

Furthermore, you keep thinking that the future mods of the MiG-29 will have the same weight as the MiG-29A. That’s like cherry picking details between different MiG-29 versions to come up with your fantasy MiG-29 that does not exist. In order to increase the internal fuel, add the avionics, etc,. the plane will only get heavier and heavier, soaking up whatever increase in power, and raising the wing loading.

MIG-29 has become lighter than older versions just like Su-35 is lighter than Su-27.

That couldn’t happen because India didn’t ask for it, & eventually (when it would have been possible), changed the requirement so it couldn’t be done.

The IAF wanted M2000, preferably quick delivery (so direct from Dassault) to start with, then licence-built. That would have dovetailed nicely with the drying up of other M2K orders, so Dassault would probably have been willing to transfer the line. But Indian politicians 1) procrastinated until the M2K line was idle, then 2) opened up the competition to aircraft which didn’t meet the original requirement, & finally 3) changed the requirement so that M2K no longer met it without new & expensive development. Would need something like a Mirage 2010 …

BTW, the IAF was talking about an interim buy of a couple of dozen M2K (which would have kept the line open & filled the numbers gap they’re worried about), but Indian politicians prevaricated until Dassault got sick of waiting, then blamed Dassault for making it impossible by closing the line. 😡

I dont think u can blame Indian politiicians or for that matter IAF. They did order 10 Mirages as attrition replacement and tried to get Qatar Mirages but price is i think too high even for second hand one.
Just look at M2K-5 history. around 1992 when Taiwan ordered. Price was close to $50M. which jumped to $70M in 1998 for UAE. I can imagine $100m would have been the price in 2001-02 period. even more now with rise of Euro. so naturally India open the competition. i dont think India is going to buy an overprice fighter with incremental improvement not generational one and that with less TOT. so choice is obvious.
have they even sign M2K upgrade.