star49it seems some improvement over older Tors interms of concurrent engagement and range.
http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-203/0702078749172331.htm
star49:rolleyes:
No, twit. It is you who has to back up the statements given that you claim its being developed in secret. OTOH, we have even PiBu & others reporting about how the Phaza development of PESAs has stalled thanks to funds in the past..but no, you keep spinning away.
They are confusing development with certification. They may not be fully certified on export plane but it does not mean that they are not developed.
Talk logically- numbers = volume = market share. In the late 90’s-plus, it was the Flanker family which was selling like hot cakes. The Kopyo $$ allowed for Zhuk ME development to finish- a Phaza guy himself told me this, wheres the money for umpteen PESAs?
Do u think it is only Kopyo? Ever thought about Phazotron Chinese connection. Phazotron developed ZHuk-8II, Zhemcheng(J-10), and components for JL-10A(JH-7). Atleas Chinese gave them development money. not to mention poded kopyo, arablet, and full range of slot and phased array radars from Su-25 to Su-27. not to mention Ruaf
http://www.royfc.com/news/may/0703may04.html
Fazotron’s Eminence
Flight tests of the “Zhemchug” BRLS for Chinese fighters have been completed. Batches of slotted antenna arrays and radar transmitters also are being delivered to China
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1995/10/18/21430/russia-helps-china-upgrade-f-8.html
According to SAC, the F-8 IIM is a company-funded venture aimed at domestic use by the Chinese air force and for export. It is intended as a follow-on to the now-defunct Grumman Peace Pearl F-8 II upgrade, cancelled after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre
The aircraft’s Zhuk-8 II pulse-Doppler radar is being developed by Phazotron in Russia, but it is expected that the system will be assembled locally, possibly by Letri, an avionics subsidiary of Aviation Industries of China (AVIC).
The Russian radar-maker has had to reconfigure the arrangement of the Zhuk to accommodate the limited accessibility components available in the Chinese fighter.
Access is more restricted than with the Mikoyan MiG-29M for which it was originally developed, according to chief designer Yuri Guskov
Can you show me a functioning Zhuk MSF or Irbis with 30/8 blah/ blah?
Dont give us some nonsense from lexis nexis about future radars. Oh wait, you cant. All you can show is claims and “tests” and promises of tests. :rolleyes:
Can u show me a functioning AL-31FM-1 or 117S?
Do you know anything about radar development AT all? I dont have time to waste to remove your illiteracy.
surely.
radars flying in several fighters today are prototypes. :rolleyes:
so? they will remain prototypes untill they find a customer. ur arjun is prototype for customer beside IA.
Operational fighter! How many Su-35s are operational? :rolleyes:
why u need in service aircraft for certification of various subsytems. what are the flying labs like MIG-29SMT and Su-27M for?
which would make some sense, but for the fact that all your radars are primarily for export anyways, so your comment is as usual irrelevant.
Primary for export? there are about 150 Ruaf MIG-29 for upgradation . kopyo has entered for Su-25. and Su-34 usese leinents radar. obviously u dont have deep study of this.
star49Picture of radar size. I think it is using series 3 engines.
star49Yes, in secret, right? :rolleyes:
so why make a claim when u have nothing to back up.
For crying out loud, Phaza has been trying to break into the Sukhoi market for donkeys years because thats where the money was at. Only in the past few years did the MiG-29 upgrades (some 200 odd) allowed them to resuscitate their fortunes with same number of Zhuk Ms sold & coupled with the earlier Kopyo project had the relaunch projects.
You simply have NO clue of how expensive radar development is. Without a launch customer, you are running a huge risk. Phaza LOST out on the Zhuk MFE and MSFE. Perhaps their quick jump into AESA will give them the edge, but even there NIIP is developing AESAs and might well retain the Flanker and PAK-FA market (where both companiesare supposed to colloborate)
how is sukhoi market more profitable. Most of sukhoi radars are old not even slot array. Kopyo is alteast slot array and they got into Ruaf also. Phazotron has alot more success in heli radars also. there is no Aesa for Flanker not even on bench tests at this point.
ROTFL, both are claiming to one day get 30/8. :rolleyes:
where is that One day came from? again make up story.
I doubt whether it has even tracked 10 targets in real life. Yet. 😎
u havent provide any evidence for that. when they said only antenna is changed and probably the computer system.
The point is that irrespective of products, there is a huge difference between paper specs (Arjun in 1990) and a production unit on the shopfloor (2006). Your radars have not cleared the prototype stage yet (Irbis, MSF, MAE) and off you are to claim that they are ready and successful. 😎
Prototype? so the radars flying in aircraft are plastic models:rolleyes: when radar is fitted to operational fighter it already several tests. the point is Arjun will fail all the tests if it is tested by customer other than IA but it does not mean that it is not developed.
star49An examination of the Phoenix supposedly helped the Soviets to build the Vympel R-33 (known in the West as AA-9 Amos) long-range missiles which arm the MiG-31 Foxhound
in what year that happened? because by 1978 R-33 was more or less fully developed system. and it takes years to reverse engineer a long range bvr.
star49And your radars have not even completed the first!
how do u know it hasnt passed the development stage.
MIG managers has now controlling stake in Phazotron and CEO sits on the board. so it is very unlikely that Phazotron radar is offered with Sukhoi unless some customer really insists.
Yes, Zhuk MSF is developed and ready and can track 30 targets and engage 8, it is in mass production in fact. :rolleyes:
why it should not do 30/8 like Irbis. both are of newer elemental base and software. and Zhuk-AE has advanced to 60 track.
Arjun tank was developed for specific user. obvioulsy u wouldnt want to judge it by some other user standards and conditions.
star49If Tienaman square incident hadn’t happened then the Chinese could have had a lot of US kit in service now, and a lot of US bits in Chinese weapons.
The main difference is that China was a traditional customer of Soviet weapons and equiment. The weapons that were rugged but simple matched Chinas needs (not suggesting they were stupid or anything, but they liked practical simplicity like the Russians did). The transition from a Mig-21 fighter to an F-16 fighter is huge for the pilot but enormous for the the maintainence crew and also huge for the production factory… and the Chinese would want to make the aircraft themselves. Iran seems to want to make her own planes to but they have a different structure and history.
The Iranian Su-24s purchase was a commercial transaction. It is my understanding that they got the Su-24s after getting some that defected from Iraq and they got to see what they were like. It doesn’t mean they are close buddies. Iran helped various Mujahedeen groups in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion because it had a border with Afghanistan… China was an enemy combatant in the Korean war against the US because it also shared a border with the war zone.Basically two countries with very little in common except a shared dislike for an adversary that created some limited cooperation.
Russia/Iran has alot more in common than what they admit publicly because there are alot of other countries in middleast
and it is not just related to collecting paltry sum of $800m for power plant in 10 years. and Afghan was mostly fought in East/South not that much related to Iran.
star49I dont even know why I am responding to your drivel…
Ah, so how many are in production or operational service? You do realize you are once again plugging a product which may be several years from being operational.
Development, Production and Operational service are three different things. and there are enough T-95 for development stage. Even Slow rate of Arjun induction cannot be called as Production rather than part of development like JSF.
Duh, the point is exactly that. That fixing stuff even at production specs, takes time and is done till a serviceable product is ready. Those five were fixed and were sent back, and time and money is going into clearing the batch of production tanks. That is what meant by an in-production unit.
The T-90 was in Russian service for several years, but once it was upgraded to more modern standards, it required much more fixing! Compare & contrast to paper products which are not in production, such as the Black Eagle. You otoh, have been tomtomming radars which dont exist, but on paper! Wheres the 30 target track, 8 engage Zhuk MSF eh? Wheres the 20 target track Zhuk MSE even!
in what year Russian T-90 was in service?. Every thing is upgraded with time. It does not mean it is not developed. Zhuk-MSF tested on Su-27KUB in 2003/2004.
star49Yes, in production as in ordered into either limited series, or regular production, or an actual program to field a working weapon, as compared to a technology demonstration program.
Janes report is from year 2000. As of year 2005. It is fully developed system. they are finding customer for it as this is expensive.
5 delivered, and being trialled by the Indian Army to verify build reliability and consistency of production. 24 ready to be handed over, at Avadhi.
so if 5 fails the test so it means it is not fully developed. u were putting the same thing for radar.
star49There is no in production Black Eagle.
u mean operational service.
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw000329_04_n.shtml.
A few hundred more, after the first 124 prove themselves. The Arjun is an expensive tank, and demands completely new logistics and engineering support.
how many are operationally delivered from 124.
star49Su-34 has been upgraded 4 times. 1994, 1999,2004,2006. In the end radar can engage 10 ground targets simultaneously. In 2004 range on internal fuel was 4500KM.
some about avionics weight savings. 15*15 displays are first for a fighter.
http://www.ato.ru/rus/cis/archive/15-2006/def/def4/
A practically all-new avionics package is used on the Su-35. Based on the MIL-1553B standard, it features an open architecture and it is more compact — reportedly saving about 1,000 kg of dry weight compared with the predecessor systems
star49I certainly think it can NOW.
Nope. Mirage 2000 and Bofors guns. how many countries could afford Bofors Guns for Army in 80s. and there is new generation of subs that Russia is preparing for IN second line. India is quite rich as far as foreign arms are concerned.
Not quite. JSF, F-16E/F, and Block 2 Super Hornet with APG-79 will no doubt have avionics a level above the MKI.
JSF is not in service. and i doubt there others have practical advantage over MKI.
star49So are you saying that whole laundry list of high-tech Western weapons India was thinking of buying they couldn’t actually afford? So it was a big show in itself?
It still doesn’t explain why Russia would go through this wishy-washy act about the FC-1 engine if they knew the WS-13 was going to be available for it.
India certainly can afford expensive systems like Scorpene SSK.
the only Western aircraft of any interest to India would be F-22. the rest does not offer any where capability like MKI. Just airlaunched Brahmos will exceed 500KM.
and the association of R-33 with FC-1/Super7 is older than J-10/AL-31 as far as back 1993.
and engine issue is not solved untill Jan 31. http://www.vpk.ru
star49You stated that the PAF only tests systems once they’re operational. If they’re truly that stupid, then so be it…
u have put once in the statement which is not accurated. I said only operational systems are tested meaning disclosed to public. if it is not operational how u know it is tested because test is not disclosed.
Yeah, in the UPGRADE PROGRAM. That’d be the MiG-31BM. “Extent”, as in how far along is the program, i.e. how many upgraded jets exist right now.
here Extent of upgrade means how much is unupgraded aircraft differs from upgraded aircraft in technical sophisticatio and ability. and u havent provided that information. Since MIG-31 already use PESA so u can only change elemental base and software. here is some from horse mouth. we can see doubling of range, new computers, more than 200kM missile, capability to intercept Stealth, hypersonic targets, artificial intelligence, satellite navigation, big MFD etc. so it is pretty extensive upgrade.
THE ANSWER TO NEW THREATS
In due time occurrence МиГ-31 has destroyed plans of those who planned the massed aviation impacts on our country with attraction of thousand cruise missiles and hundreds strategic bombers. However technical process did not stand on a place, and in process of development abroad means of an air attack about which it has been told above, modernization of a fighter became actual.
As have shown recent tests advanced МиГ-31, it(he), as well as the base plane a quarter centuries ago, successfully struggles with the advanced means of an air attack.
“Brain” of such plane became the modernized control system of arms (СУВ), including advanced БРЛС, a new onboard computer, mathematical and the software with elements of an artificial intellect. Due to these innovations range of detection of the air purposes has increased almost in 2 times, are raised(increased) точностные characteristics СУВ.
The updated control system of arms allows to apply rockets of the superbig range, similar which is not present in the world. Their range of start-up exceeds 200 km. Opportunities of an interceptor on defeat of undistinguished planes and cruise missiles, and also the flying devices having hypersound speed of flight have increased.
Advanced МиГ-31 can bear(carry) more than aviation means of defeat, than the base plane.
In a cabin new МиГ-31 modern means of display of the tactical information, including color multipurpose indicators of the big size are established(installed). The crew has had an opportunity to be guided on modern system of satellite navigation. Efficiency at the decision of problems(tasks) of various classes has increased 1,5-4 times.
Fighting opportunities advanced МиГ-31 allow to struggle successfully with perspective means of an air attack, including with undistinguished cruise missiles and perspective hypersound flying devices. The new interceptor will be the worthy opponent to fighters of the fifth generation. Them малозаметность it will be compensated by greater range of detection of the purposes an onboard radar, and also unique opportunities of the updated rocket arms of the Russian fighter.
There are no doubts, that advanced МиГ-31 will play exclusively important role in the conflict of any scale and to application of any weapon
Vladimir МИХАЙЛОВ
The commander-in-chief Military-air forces, the general
So now the people at Novosibirsk aren’t trained? They assemble Su-34s by luck?
they are trained in old factory tools. and they lamented it for shortage of skill workers , equipment and low production rate. it is in one of there statements.
Needing the aircraft is separate from being able to afford it.
It is not separate issue. If some thing is important they will keep it anyway.
star49Then it’s not indigenous, is it.
r u reffering to indigenous manufacturing or indigenous science. Incase of Indigenous Science nothing outside West/Russia is indigenous. the rest is just degree of manufacturing. my theory of testing only operational stuff is still valid.
Pointless. You can’t hide behind a wall of text to get away from a valid point.
thats not what Nick asked. he asked of extent of modernization. u have to take MIG-31 the same way as F-22 for Lockheed/USAF.
Maybe it’s mission avionics, low level flight performance, the fact that it’s already in production…and new built Su-35BMs will be using newer technologies than the Su-34 had available back in the early 1990s. It could be improved in production. Ever think of that?
yes Su-34 can be improved with modern production. but Su-35 shares modern factory with SSJ/PAK-FA with fully trained people. why invest in another factory which can be used for civillian purpose. Su-35 flight performance is yet known but should be close even in low level. According Interavia Su-35 will share cockpit with PAK-FA. u save money in pilot training.
Uh, they are living without the Su-30MK. They have a few Su-30 long-range interceptors in service at Savasleyka near Murom. They don’t need and cannot afford the Su-30MK anyway.
they dont need Su-30 thats why they cant afford. I am sure they have the technical capacity of upgrading twin seater like single seaters to 8ton weopon load. It is i think the twin pilot i think the factor for tactical fighter.
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