More star49 speak
when RuAF have all that, why should they buy Su-30? Big hole in your theory, and claims, who u now going to blame?

the point is why Su-30 missing from the line up? ever thought about this. why they went with single pilot Su-27SM. difference between tactical and strategic.

nobody sez india’ll make whole pak-fa, but this u dont understand while you keep doing bla bla bla.

the point is u cannot even make of half of Pak-FA.

if this is all you know, no wonder u r so slow! theres much more to the israeli gear in the MKI, but forget all that and go beddy bye bye, since your lack of knowledge would make a sane man cry!

let me put this way, BARS,AL-31FP, FBW, Structure, HMS, Datalink, weopons is it Israeli? u are only making components. now show me some thing more critical than this. Aircraft cannot fly without engine.

why would india transfer tech to russia, when no deals have been signed, are you simply so blind?

who say transfer can only be from Gov to Gov. there is nothing in private sector.

india is hardly perfect, but russia does need money for pak-fa, while you keep saying bla-bla-bla!

thats what i am saying. they will need money if India put money quickly like by end of this year. by next year. it will be only buyer-seller. obviously u havent read the full statements. and i dont want to show everything.:p

IAF has as much money as its Govt gives, if the Govt says the PAK-FA they will fund, that should be clear as long as you are not full of idealogical mud!

No one is disupting that. It is the slow decision and implementaion process. that will lead India to now where. neither here nor there.

More claims of something that is yet to come, when something is already flying with the same! asking why india does not supply to a future ms-21 is silly, since clearly the ms-21 does not interest new delhi!

tell this to Airbus and Boeing. they accepted suppliers a decade well before service entry of jet. suppliers decision of MS-21 is very near. let see what composite u can provide. kindly look around Vaso site also. .

your words speak for themselves, dear elmer fudd. they are so clear, as clear as mud!

Because u have taken an illogical position that India can contribute anything to 5th generation. Designing 5th generation is different process. there is very minimal for later comers once design and Centralized computing system is built up. u will be playing with cheap export variant.

there is nothing to claim or to blame, h177 even if you were banned, dont be sad, dont be mad! :rolleyes:

hehe why should i sad with some thing unrelated.:p u went into this trap of tennis match when u said ur going to avoid:diablo:

I am gonna reply in star49 speak, because simply, you deserve it for subjecting my brain to this abuse

if RuAF no reveal, how you know big big things to talk big things here

why u havent seen Ruaf CinC statements about MIG-31. show me anything like that for Su-30:diablo:

doofus, have we not told you already that it makes no economic sense for india to join up?

what choice India has?

mki is india specific. what russia does with mkm, or mka is upto them.

according to Irkut MKA is 95% common with MKI. the difference is between French and English language.

why car industry? lets talk about sewage plants in karachi and wastewater reprocessing in vladivostok next

irrelevant stuff. I have shown from where they want technology.

before plane fly fly, wing, structure test test, composite is developed, tested and is fielded, take much time and money and is how things work. u not know me no help u there.

surely they also went through this process on much larger scale.

yes, which is why iaf love the mki and it is praised to the gills. ur simply talking nonsense-um.

but it does not mean it is suitable for Ruaf?

india will contribute to areas it has expertise in and mitigate cost and risk.

surely i am waiting for that for past 3 years.

ur copy pasting from lexis nexis and passing it off as a big deal which is very juvenile. only u got found out.

surely u can even figure that out:D

again you are talking utter BS, and which is why you are called the forum oracle. India chose the Bars over the MSF at the time after presentations by both Phaza and NIIP, and the latter was deemed a better less risky program. It had adequate time to set the specs and contribute to it. The rest of your post is your usual drivel.

link for that? Radars are good as long as ther elemental base and software is good.

and no production ready examples but big claims, which you wet yourself over.

how do u know. they have so many experimental models flowing. production model is going to fly before MAKS-2007;)

the indian side will just contribute 50% as much as it offends your pakistani sense of pride. cheerio.

Keep dreaming about nationalities and ethincities. u will never figure this thing out:diablo:

More BS. Simple fact they dont have money to squander. And SOC has rebutted your claims on the MiG etc.

how SOC knows about MIG-31 modernization. Its number Ruaf hanst disclosed anywhere nor the extent of modernization. there internal designation are different.

And if India were to be involved that late in the program, more years and money. There is little to gain for the IN by trying to have designs changed this late into the program for 16 aircraft.

u are not designing a radar u are merely supplying subsystems. it does not take that long for those who knows how to build.

India’s MKI are India specific. Irkut is not selling them or what India is developing for itself from EW to MMI features which remain India specific and are being integrated in India with minimal OEM involvement, as the Indian side has the right to do so per the deal. Secondly, the LCA composites have already been tested before deployment on PV-1, educate yourself about ac development.

But MKI Radar, engine, FBW, Structure, Weopons are not India specific. they are selling to other countries also. any strucutral, radar or engine impromvent they will put in website just like Knaapo, Napo. so do u think Russia didnot tested composites anywhere before applying into SU-47?

Common sense, which you apparently lack.

surely u have shown more:rolleyes:

So? Whos saying they dont?

just look at there Car industry how they are developing it. They ask for Japanese/Western manufactures to modernize there plants, built the certified supply chain ,do join research and than later on build Russian design cars inside those plants simultaneously. thats why the biggest Auto firms are state owned now. they are not interested in any technology from India/China.

Try for Russkaya Avionicas interviews in russian websites, and you’ll know about Japanese LCDs being used. I dont have time to trawl through links.
Secondly, the issue is not of meeting workshare commitments, simple. How India does it for itself is upto it. If Russia wants to replace them with all russian items, banzai to them..

u have to provide that for Ruaf now. u said so. the question is India has to pay for Russian contribution but not the other way. thats point.

Because you know little of the composite development in the LCA, and related programs in the Indian aerospace industry, and I dont want to waste my time further trying to convince you..

all i know u have one aircraft with very limited flights with no loads. u cannot put that comprehensive.

See your posts above about Leninets and this and that..

why person like Mikhail Pogsyn who controls, Su-34/Su-35/PAK-FA/SSJ does not carry weight. or even def minister Ivanov. there is nothing like Su-34. it is 5th generation avionics complex. that is enough message in this.

Many things remain common, basic electromagnetics and beam shaping does not change nor do the laws of physics..

the point is how quickly u apply. slow decision making and implementation make a project obsolete.

Get an education please, and learn about workshare agreements. In an ideal world, every country would want to do everything itself irrespective of the cost, but they have to cooperate to mitigate project risk and cost.

mitigate risk and cost is done among equal partners in technical field. like Snecma-Saturn. where each has to contribute. or Perm-PW.

Please dont make us laugh. You are some kid in a univ with access to Lexis Nexis, a few keywords and you copy paste the same, and use statements out of context and selectively. Hardly anything authoritative.

why u need lexis nexis for russian news. just go there language forms. everything is right there. u can find plenty of stuff. I have posted the link of Russian Professors who worked on that during Soviet Times.
here more they are putting $5B into civillian industry by 2008.

ОАК counts, that the aviaprom becomes attractive to investors
The chapter(head) of board of the Incorporated aviabuilding corporation (ОАК) Alexey Fedorov counts, that by 2008 the volume of unappropriated investments into aviation branch will reach(achieve) 198 billion roubles.

” We count, that by 2008 total investments will make 123 billion roubles without percent(interests) and 198 billion – with percent(interests) “, — has told Feodors. It(he) also has noted, that in ОАК hope for essential increase in investment appeal of branch.

The volume of state financing ОАК, as he said, during with 2007 on 2009 will make 125 billion roubles

Obviously not, since they have been scouting for partners and are more rational than you think they are.

yes the have been scouting for partners all the time. like Tu-334 offer to Iran. they will do it all the time but it does not mean that partner has any technical contribution. that is totally separate issue.

You are as usual displaying your ignorance and talking absolute BS. Wrt the Bars India chose the Bars over the Zhuk MSF, funded its development and colloborated with subsystem development as it was but midway in development. In the case of the Zhuk-M, its a radar already in developmental flight testing with its components ready, and that too with development almost complete, why should India join the program this late and what for? There are dime a dozen firms in India which work on high end multiprocessing- simply there was no reason for India to get involved.

Again u are more delusional. India signed up for Bars/MKI and it has to stick with it untill the end. Irkut spent $400m in developing MKI. India decision making is too slow. it cannot change radar in the middle. Zhuk-MSF came much later with new elemenatal base and it started on Su-30MK3 and than Su-27KUB. India cannot jump on it. it has to pay again for certification on MKI and for that money has to be approved and for that long negotiations. In the end India has to accept what Russia provide. the same will be the case with MIG-29K.

Nonsense, its evolution, not revolution.

ever aircraft is evolution by that logic. It is the first aircraft with engine of 10 to 1, FBW controls TVC, extended range, centralized computers, only Two screen MFD and so many structural upgrades.

VIAM is only working on specific composites, the extent of work is not detailed. It can be combined with the LCA derived work which has far more structural work in composites already flying.

LCA extensive? ever thought about how big is VIAM and there history. u dont have clue about this thing.

You are clearly delusional. They are in extensive need of finances, the entire russian def industry is oriented towards exports bar their strat forces.

surely the reality does not match. they are going to change military-industrial complex into 80% Civlian. and all the efforts are geared towards that. and considering the slow decision making process from Indian side and little prospect of technology. I dont see how India can enter the project without big amount of money.

Which in no way proves that the Bars is not superior to what currently equips the Su-27SM.

I am more referring into subystems of Radar, communication system, MKI uses the 100 kg Russian system, cockpit LCDs vs CRTs etc. the point is more related to speed of project implementation.

That’s because they’re waiting for the PAK-FA. Upgrading older aircraft is perfectly fine as a stop-gap measure.

thats the whole point. why would Russia opens its technologies to India without upfront money if it is not interested in Indian technology for its own airforce?.

Uh huh, which basically means that it will never be productionized, and so all your paper claims will remain paper claims.

Su-47 was never meant for operational service. It is for testing technologies just like Su-35 for engines, FBW etc.

Basically you are spinning as and when it suits you. Unless you are unable to discern English, it has already been pointed out, that India has little interest in contributing to the MiG-29K beyond whats economic. Its not being license manufactured in India.

what has licensing MIG-29K to do with contributing to the project? if ur Industry have the know how. it can instantly apply to any project. not limited to one system like Bars. or India system of development is too slow.
for example Knaapo provides equipment to OIL and Gas industry.

There were several references.

http://www.royfc.com/news/mar/1804mar01.html
Interview: Aleksey Fedorov, General Director of the Irkut Aircraft Building Corporation

Our cooperation right now is a two-way street. At the technological level (HAL) is a fully modern enterprise. For the time being we partly are ahead of them, for example in part of the production of titanium parts and a number of other technologies. But this gap will be overcome using the deployment of the Su-30MKI’s licensed production in India. In many technologies, for example in the part of the production of composite materials, HAL already today is at a good international level and is of interest as a source technologies. Even within the framework of the current contracts we concede that HAL can be an Irkut subcontractor.

FYI, the MKI’s composite content was 6%. The LCAs is 45% by weight, and > 90% by surface area. Do the math.

it is interview from 2003 and MKI is still built with foreign components. So slow implementation of project. for LCA unless goes through years of flight tests with external loads. Its composite quality is moot point.

In other words, we have to buy your interpretation of what they are supposed to have said versus what they said. Please!

u dont have to buy my interpretation. It is so simple when a car dealer ask u to upgrade the car what actually he means. Fedrov exactly knows HAL capacity to upgrade.

Use your brains, or is it that hard? The contribution of these firms to worldwide projects is well known, including your civilian ones.

http://www.infosys.com/industries/aerospace_defense/cases/default.asp
http://www.satyam.com/solutions/s_iaerospace_casestudies.html
http://www.wipro.com/datadocs/brochures/wipro_in_aerospace.pdf

There are more than a dozen other firms which are in the business.

that is pretty low end work. and it is not even worth consideration for that matter we are discussing. i can show dozens of this kind of work. even Irkut itself is 10% owned by EADS and has $200m contracts for parts. I am not going up further into Airbus Engineering desing center or Boeing or MIG factor for A-320 conversion. It is irrelevant to the matter.

If they dont accept it, no money. If they accepted it for other projects, they will accept it here.

they have no problem with giving work share to India. India can even have 100% workshare:D but it will be like selling entire project to India and they will keep another one for themselves.

From the Russian POV, they need Indian money so they will have to provide workshare to India. From the Indian POV, they will only provide money as long as they get design responsibilities.

Russian MFDs use Japanese manufactured LCDs in bulk, as of 2003.

agian i have told they have no problem with workshare. u can have 100%. and i am talking about Ruaf MFDs not for export stuff.

I dont need to provide any data to the resident Oracle.

now u dont have the data or just make it up.

Should be in service? IOW, you dont know. If Bars is going through incremental upgrades it shoots a hole through your claims of it standing still.

they are in service but i dont know the numbers. according to Ruaf CinC they have operationalized more than 200km bvr. and Bar incremental upgrade has nothing to with Ruaf. it is still obsolete by there standards.

Uh huh, IOW you buy marketing BS as and when it suits you. And you expect to be taken seriously. Learn to look beyond hyperbole.

i have looked beyond already but u seem to be in delousions.

ROTFL, more marketing yarns. The Russians average 40 flight hours/pilot per year. Surely thats because of a secret plan, and not because they are concentrating their limited funding on strategic forces. Sure! In fact, the Russians might be sensible (which I think they are) and will go directly for the PAK-FA without even mass fleet upgrades which are expensive.

40 hrs is fine without transport to make it up. now i dont expect others have more than 100 hr anyway considering the age of the fleet. and they are very sensible thats why they are upgrading there entire fleet. as it is cheaper. dont assume export prices.

More yarns. If the vendor fails to deliver something by a certain timeline which he agreed to, he is held responsible. Dont backtrack on their culpability. They are mature enough to admit their mistakes, dont be a shill.

show me where is the failure of time line based on written agreement and non indian interferance.?

If they want money, they will have to involve India in technology development. Thats what workshare means, do grow up!

offcourse they will involve 100% Indian technolgy provided the money is right but the end product will become some thing else.

If you dont know the details, why claim to do so and make irrelevant claims.

how is that irrelevant. Civilian production is now the most harder part. they are spending $12b in modernizing factories.

India utilizes multiple components from different countries and knows how to develop items to competing standards.

but what these has to do with Russian standards?

You tell us, it was you who was prattling about how they are inferior because RuAF doesnt have them.

the point is they have no intention even to procure in future anywhere according state defense order untill 2015. it means they have no interest in Indian technology.

Why should India provide any subsystems for Zhuk-M when it makes no economic sense for it develop them? Take a lesson in acquisition economics, and IRR and then talk.

what this has to do with economics?. it is the same like Intel providing chips to both PC and Apple. if u have the radar subsystems manufacture capability u can easily provide subsystems to any manufacturers or it shows that ur capability is very limited or obsolete.

BS. Talk to the IAF, the MKI structure has been significantly upgraded to handle the extra weight.

Su-30MKK has been significanlyt upgraded to carry extra weight. http://www.knaapo.ru. it does not mean that they are not obsolete in aerodynamics. first serious upgrade is Su-35BM which India cant do without Sukhoi.

No industry can handle or productionize technologies instantly, even the russians. And the 29 Ks radar has not even met the specs claimed in 1998, what talk of 2000. Learn to differentiate between PR and reality.

how do u know it hast met the specifications in different time periods. elemental base changes with time. naturally every country wants the best and perfect system but it doesnot mean perfect systems exist for the limited price. look at first APG-68V9 for IDF.

Which is what India has been doing and has done.

Secondly, all your claims including those Lexis Nexis copy pasted links are about composites for engine structures, not airframes. So much for that waste of effort.

so how do u think they construct Sukoi RRJ at Knaapo if they dont know composite work? i am not even going into other firms. here is some more doze of reality. Russia is right there with top countries in the world and they didnot have that much work in 90s.

http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/2001/April2001/composi5.html
The composites Sarychev and Shalaev are investigating are similar in structure to films that were being developed for use on stealth aircraft by the Soviet Union when Sarychev was a researcher at the Russian Academy of Science. The difference is mainly a matter of scale.

“The work began in the 1980s and rapidly progressed until the crash of the Soviet Union,” Sarychev said. “The material was almost ready for aircraft when the Cold War ended and interest faded. It would have required building a new airplane, and there was no money.”

The goal of that research was to develop an aircraft skin that would absorb microwave radiation. After Sarychev came to the United States and began collaborating with Shalaev, the two became interested in the optical applications of percolation composites.

“It is quite different in the microwave range, but the main idea is the same,” Sarychev said. “Before, we worked on material that would absorb microwave radiation from far away. Then we started to look inside the material.”

Sarychev has been a visiting professor of physics at NMSU twice and is now a college professor of physics. He has a Ph.D. from the Moscow Physical-Technical Institute and a Doctor of Science — a degree that is higher than the Ph.D. and goes only to the country’s top researchers — from the Institute of High Temperatures of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

Shalaev has a Ph.D. in physics with honors from Russia’s Krasnoyarsk State University in eastern Siberia. He joined the NMSU faculty in 1993.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:b_v-TEa5inQJ:www.custac.buffalo.edu/docs/OccasionalPaper30.pdf+aircraft+composite+russia&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9
Japan’s technological leadership in composites is one reason that Boeing is going to contract 35percent of the 787-airframe structures to Japan. In an interview with Paul Lagace, MIT Professorof Aeronautics & Astronautics and Engineering Systems, “the United States lags behind Japan,Spain and Russia in aircraft composite technology” (Lagace, 2004).

http://www.russianaeros.com/history22.htm
He could see that the future lay in composite aircraft, but Yakovlev refused to accept that a proper aircraft could be made out of ‘plastics’ and Sukhoi, eager to show off their skills, gave Kondratiev a free hand to design a composite aerobatic aircraft, which resulted in the world-beating SU-26, and its production version the SU-26M.

The design and construction of this aircraft is in fact done by Advance Sukhoi Technologies, in fact a privately owned company, albeit with largely the same management as the (still today) majority state-owned Sukhoi Design Bureau.

The Su-47 was a tech demonstrator and the program is over. The tests conducted on the LCAs composite structures are also available from open sources, educate yourself.

Su-47 is not over. Read the PAK-FA project chief Alexender Dividenko. they are using it for material and interanal weopons testing and it is part of PAK-FA program.

Uh uh, so now its low cost which dictates the MiG29K. As it suits you, you keep spinning.

nope. I was just giving example. they are using composites according to what cost dictates. India is not bringing anything new to the table.

So as it suits you, the russian statements are alternatively credible, or marketing. What nonsense.

show me technical assistance statement. Fedrov has never been associated with Knaapo.

Fedorov made the statement to ask for the Indian side to develop the MKI further, as can be expected, since it punches a hole in your statements it becomes marketing.

or he may be indicating bring more money to Irkut so develop for India. u have to read enough Russian statments to understand them.

Infosys and several Indian firms are working on composite structures and consulting assignments. Specialised production processes and software have been exported abroad as well. :rolleyes:

alot of firms are working on these even in Railways and there is global award for Russian firm. but what relevance has this to 5th generation project?

Dont be silly, as hard as it is for you. The issue was quite clearly of satisfying workshare commitments which has been shown to be sufficient. The rest of your babble is the usual drivel you write, and which is meaningless.

the point is it is only Indian systems for Indian market. they are not upto the mark where Russia is going to accept. just like they accept South Korean semiconductors untill this point.

The point is that if India decides thats part of its workshare, it will do so for its version of the PAK-FA. Russian MFDs rely on Japanese LCDs according to Russian sources, and are integrated inhouse. So much for your silly tangent.
DATASOL India has already had its MFDs chosen for LCH, so by your standards that should be more than enough. SAMTEL is already well on its way to MFD manufacture and is even working on OLEDs.

the point from Russian point of view is that India has nothing to offer for 5th generation. So India must pay upfront to buy Russian technologies for later customization by Indian for IAF. Russia is simply not buying anything from India. so contribution does no arise to begin with. and India will endlessly debating this point.
Russian MFD with Japanese?

Look it up.

u made a statment so back it up.

How many MiG-31Ms are in service? Are complete systems being replaced or merely upgraded? Obviously you have little understanding of the term upgrade vs new design. Secondly, the Bars is sufficient for the role you described- go figure!

Atleast a dozen should be in service as program started in 2000. and what is meant by complete system? Bars is also going through incremenatl upgrades. only IRBIS has new antenna from Osa.

In other words, you dont know the specifications but were babbling about it being manna from heaven!
The link merely reinforces the fact that the Su-34 is a dedicated strike aircraft, so much for your claims. :rolleyes:

So F-18E/F-15E are also strike aircraft but it does not mean they cannot do air to air. Specification should exceed. there is no doubt about that. I can even Say Su-27SM is not inferior to MKI according Russian Generals.

They are being applied to other systems and being applied to further upgrades. Whats in it for me to tell you the exact details, only to have you use it for some racially charged debate elsewhere?

so provide that information. where it is applied.

The Bars was unaffordable by the RuAF when it was developed, so are most other systems. If they can fund it, they might get Irbis-E, or even wait for an AESA system instead. Secondly, the outside customer developed hardware for the radar and is keenly aware of its development path.

Bars unaffordable? if they can afford MIG-31 and Su-34 radars why not Bars? Simply they can do without Bars on Su-27SM. so there is no point in going for it.

The entire aircraft. The Bison upgrade was also similarly delayed thanks to russian problems with subsystems and components. The MKI had issues with competing standards and specifications and integration.

when the agreement was signed and when first aircraft was delivered? and compare it to F-16MLU and M2K upgrade time line. U have nothing to complain.

The chinese and russia dont have the same strategic goals in several respects, simply put they are neighbours. India is not a potential threat. Secondly, they do need assistance, ie money. And that money will dictate workshare.

thats not the point. the point is they havent asked for technical assistance. with money why not just buy the end product. otherwise u will delay the end product and obsolete customization.

Not really, but you wont get more details till the IAF releases it publically.

the same can be said about Ruaf. they wont release all the details.

You wont find it on the internet. I dont even know why I am detailing this- but anyways- Russia follows GOST standards, and even Indian equipment fitted to russian gear or subsystem development, follows the same. This includes EMC requirements. In other cases, open architecture and MiL and NATO STANAG have been followed. It all depends upon the context and the subsystem in question.

yes both B-1 and Blackjack follow the same standards but there is difference in protection. so Indian standards may not apply to Russia.

The MKI and Brahmos are current programs, and are being taken forward. By constructive, I am referring to your infamy on the forum wherein you engage in these useless claims and counterclaims. Which is why there is no point in either encouraging you or giving you relevant information.

MKI and Brahmos are for India. what this has anything to do with Ruaf.

As mentioned previously, your juvenile line of questioning is “have you stopped beating your wife”. Why would India contribute to a Zhuk-M which was already developed for the MiG-29 SMT upgrade and that too, for a limited upgrade run of 16 aircraft? Radar development is time consuming and costly- theres no advantage to India in this.

alteast India can provide subsystems for Zhuk-M just like Bars or Bars systems are already obsolete.

India is not in Su-35 because it has the MKI, and will standardize on it and upgrade it as it sees fit. The MiG-29 K has again little relevance for India as only 16 aircraft have been produced. Simply put, you dont know what you are talking of.

MKI is old aircraft related to early 80s SuperFlanker in structure and there havent been any structural upgrade to it. the point is not small quantity or large. ur Industry simply dont have the capacity to deal with new technologies instantly. and MIG-29K is not the radar from year 2000. it is M3.
for 5th generation u just cannot buy composites on market u have to develop in house for years.

AVIATION

Russian R&D institute starts working out new composite materials for 5th generation fighter

MOSCOW. April 30,2003 (Interfax-AVN) – The All-Russian R&D Institute of Aircraft Materials (VIAM) has started designing composite materials for the fifth-generation fighter, a competent source in the Russian defense industry told Interfax-Military News Agency on Wednesday.

“The future composite materials most have advanced strength and rigidity specifications, as well as advanced heat stability. These parameters must be better by about 30 to 40 percent,” the source said.

According to experts, composite materials will amount to about 30 percent of the total weight of fifth-generation planes and aircraft engines. Specific weight of new composite materials is four to six times as low as that of steels and 1.5 times as low as that of alumunium alloys, the source said.

“The composite materials being designed for the fifth- generation aircraft engine withstand the temperature of 400 degrees for a long time. The blades and entire screw as well as first blades of the compressor can be made of these materials,” he said.

VIAM has received the largest order for designing new composite materials from the Sukhoi military aircraft corporation that is responsible for designing the fifth-generation fighter, the source noted.

In addition, one of the major agreements that have been concluded deals with certification of the TU-334 passenger plane.

VIAM is also working with the Aviadvigatel JSO based in Perm to improve the PS-90A aircraft engine and create its PS-90A2 variety with advanced noise specifications.

“New materials must provide for the aircraft engines’ compliance with noise requirements of Chapter Four of ICAO Annex 16 and for creating the research and technical backlog to ensure compliance with Chapter Five of this annex that is yet to take effect,” the source stressed.

AVIATION

Russian fifth-generation combat aircraft to be built of materials tested on Berkut

MOSCOW. May 5 (Interfax-AVN) – The first fifth-generation fighters will be made of composites tested on the SU-47 experimental aircraft (formerly S-37 Berkut), a competent source in the Russian defense industry told Interfax-Military News Agency Monday.

“The first fifth-generation fighters are to be built of further developed and upgraded composite materials of the type used in the SU-47 experimental aircraft,” he said.

The source said that, for example, the composites that the wing panels of the SU-47 are made of have been tested thoroughly, and the designer of the future fighter knows they will work well.

However, he went on, the technology of the production of the SU-47’s wing panels has been poorly automated and still requires much manual labor.

“The production technology should be upgraded. The serial production of the fighter has to involve new materials, and the automation level of the production technology should be much higher for lower labor intensity and production cost,” the source said.

He also said that the Russian Aircraft Materials Institute (VIAM) was working on new materials for the fifth-generation aircraft engine.

“VIAM does this in close cooperation with the Central Aircraft Engine Production Institute that has inspired the creation of the engine. For example, it is necessary to make a high-curvature wide-chord working blade. The problem is not only to produce the blade, but also to tailor the material it is made of. The whole production process is to be automated,” the source said

Then what is the composite percentage in their current fighters by weight? Do tell us? Machinery and training workers is not equivalent to developing the processes. The details you mention could be for multiple areas, not necessarily composite structure manufacture. And nobody here denies the strength of the Russian aircraft industry. Just pointing out that there are other countries with different niche strengths.

The point is India is not one of them. it has built a single fighter just one year ago.
you dont have a slightest clue how expensive and difficult is a modern Civlian airline with all the long flight hrs and aerodynamic efficiency. esepcially the super critical wing. 40 to 50% is normal thing. even MIG-29K use 15%.

http://www.missiles.ru/KTRV.htm
Modern Russian industry has mastered composites manufacturing techniques offering their practical application: up to 40 per cent of the MiG-AT and Su-47 aircraft airframes are made of composites providing considerable weight reduction and required strength. It means that stealth signatures can be attained without increasing overall missile weight

It was started a decade ago with French engine.

Flight tests of RD-1700 engine to begin in 2005

The MIG-AT is the first Russian plane fully designed after the collapse of the USSR. Over 30 percent of its surface are made of composite materials. The trainer is the first Russian plane to have a digital remote control system that only the latest U.S.- made F-35 and F-22 fighters have had so far.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA399828
The present document describes the efforts under Memorandum of Cooperation between the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), USA, and the Central Aero-Hydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI), Russian Federation. Under this effort, a methodology for calculating reliability of composite aircraft structures was developed and is contained in software Probabilistic Design of Damage Tolerant Composite Structures (ProDeCompoS). In addition, background data culled from Russian usage of composite aircraft structures was compiled to use with ProDeCompoS. This includes statistical data of damage occurrence, effectiveness of repair, and test data and computational methods to determine residual strength for damaged composite laminate. The methodology and use of ProDeCompoS was demonstrated by calculating the reliability of four composite components: a highly maneuverable MIG-29 fin, a transport TU-204 aileron, a business jet Lear Fan-2100 wing, and an aerobatic SU-29 wing. To evaluate the robustness of ProDeCompoS, a method to estimate of spread and confidence intervals for failure probability was developed and used in the analysis of the MIG-29 fin. The analysis showed that the reliability estimates are quite stable for the range of expected variations of input data

Those are overall design goals, how they achieve them is still up for debate and design finalization, and detailed subsystem design and development.

thats the point. what subsytems ur are referring too? which cannot be developed faster and cheaper not mention better in Russia? has India even produce a High Definition LCD TV with its own intellectual property.

Talk about deluding oneself. Russia and India recently signed an agreement to develop a hypersonic follow on to the Brahmos. So the program is being kept apace. Lastly, why would the Russians necessarily use a 300 Km Yakhont? They have a vast stock of earlier gen missiles which if they refurbish and upgrade, they can have a viable inventory for decades yet.

it means Russia already has the technology so it is releasing now. and how told Yakhont can only be 300KM?. they can do what ever they like with its range and payload. but they arent interested. It is not included in future Su-34/PAK-FA nor it in any bomber fleet.

You are mistaken. Was every system for the MiG-31M developed from scratch, or is it merely recieving a limited upgrade to its avionics and if funds available, to its weaponry. The Su-34 program is slow as heck, on account of funding issues- but never mind that, its “big upgrade going on”. Please.

limited upgrade MIG-31?. It already got more than 200km range air to air missile. MKI has yet to fire that range of missile nor is its radar currently capable of it guiding at that ranges. u need Irbis for that. MIG-31 was simply ahead of time.
Su-34 is so complex than India cannot produce like that even a single one in next 20 years by itslef. It is the first to certify with satellite guided weopons and can destroy hardened strucutures at 250K. Bars is a joke compared to Su-34 radar.

Who did not foresee and what did not foresee? You are conflating issues. The MKI program charted out what the Indian side should deliver which they did. It gives India the right to modify its own Flankers and customize them further- which it is doing.

I can see Indian subsytems for MKI and but the amount of time it took in developing them and there performance is not cutting edge. they are already obsolete by Russian standards. so u cannot contribute technically anything.

India has developed multiple systems for the MKI thereafter, and is now concentrating on its other programs. The Irbis is a prototype, the Zhuk-MSF never went into production, the Zhuk-MS ditto, the Leninets performance is unknown. Simply put, without a launch customer none of the above will be fully developed. Delays are ubiquitous in the russian industry as well- too many factors interplay, but as long as the final product meets user specs and is within a valid range, its ok.

Zhuk-MSF tested were completed in 2004 for Su-27KUB. and it is lighter than BARS. u are confusing export order with capability. One thing is known about lenient that it was chosen over Irbis/Zhuk-MSF for Ruaf and it can simultanioulsy engage 10 air to ground targets. Delay is not with Russian industry. it is with customer.

You have to be kidding. The bureaucratic labryinth in russia wrt non state investment in the MIC for equal stakeholders still exists, and similar constraints exist in India (FDI- 26%). Its a moot point whether the Brahmos model will be followed for the MKI (as I said, and which you as usual are still argueing needlessly over)- but if India & russia decide to simplify things again, they could well do so.

they deliver Tu-204/IL-96 to Cuba on time. which is more difficult than military systems. I havent seen any delay. ur putting delays due to Indian side on Russia. Brahmos is not delayd on russian side and neither is MKI.

se subsystems are for the Su-35, for a PAK-FA, they’ll need something qualitatively different and even better. The radar for a PAK-FA is nowhere developed. The first AESA prototype is but flying now, and even Phaza acknowledge it needs much more funding before it can become ready. The NIIP led consortium for the PAK-FA hasnt declared any ready radar yet either.

the point is u cannot even make subsystems for Su-35 let alone for PAK-FA. u are not simply prepare for it. Design freeze for PAK-FA radar is achieved in dec 2005. (dividenko,Interavia) and there three radars into the fuselage. it is more complex thing than simply changing to Active antenna in conventional fighter. Phazotron has developed the computer system for its radar and its on there website for long time.

Oi ve! Dont go by mere flashy MFDs. MMI is MUCH MORE than that, it involves everything from symbology to ergonomics. And the IAF has spent almost the better part of a decade finetuning everything on the MKI. They wont change it unless they must. The Russians are welcome to keep changing the displays or whatever.

i know its much more. but u havent produce even that flashy simulator.

You asked for the Indian contribution- I specified. Now it is your claim that it is somehow unrelated, and because every country has different specs! The fact is that EW and comms are amongst the most complicated systems to contribute, and the IN has chosen local systems.

the point is Russia already has better systems when u develop. so there is no point for them. what is protection of Indian computer systems against EMP attack because Russia develop things to very different standards.

The MKI has several computer systems, each of which differs in clock speed, FLOPS and performance. The parameters you are seeking are irrelevant given how different requirements necessitate different processors. One MKI subsystem has a clock speed in Mega Flops. Another is over 8 Gigaflops easily with a multiprocessor board. Secondly, regarding program speed, the program was started later than most equivalent programs and has delivered a FOC program with further upgrades already underway, and is in series production.

i need the performance of those with link and time line.

This is a joke. Phazatron contributed to these programs and reused components. It is NIIP which makes the MKIs systems, and India is still evaluating its options for the MKI MLU.

u will keep evaluating and options will become obsolete. what is India contribution to Zhuk-M3 as this started much later than MKI or even to the helmet mounted sight.

There is nothing to prove, the evidence is clear if you are willing to admit it. If all you are interested in is arguementation, look elsewhere.

This will be my last post unless you have something worthwhile to say, and not the usual back and forth tennis match for which I have no time or interest.

evidence is clear? just a single LCA which was just built a year show comprehensive experiance:rolleyes:
I have shown that they are doing composites

You are tending to ramble. First, we are not merely talking of just composite panels and skins, but detailed structures. The LCA’s PV-1 composite development has already met its stated goals, with further improvements likely.

Major weight reduction was attempted during the manufacture of this aircraft’s airframe. Carbon fibre composites were extensively used in the fuselage taking the overall composite content to 45 per cent by weight and 95 per cent by surface area. The part count, which was 10,000 for TD-1’s airframe, was reduced to 7,000 in this case. The airframe weighed 6,430kg when complete which meant the weight reduction exercise had reduced 350kg of weight, a praise worthy achievement.

PV-1 represents the production standard airframe. Of the structural material used the proportion of carbon composites account for 45 per cent by weight, aluminium alloys 43 per cent, titanium alloys 5 per cent, steels 4.5per cent and other materials 2.5 per cent.

Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas Testing
Written by Air Marshal P. Rajkumar, PVSM, AVSM, VM (Retd.)

More weight reductions are planned, but the test progress means that a lot of Flight test instrumentation is also being lugged around at present.

Russia may well have experience in other programs, but Fedorov made a public comment that in terms of combat aircraft, the Indian side was more into composites and they were further along than Irkut.

Fedrov is referring to a single Factory. Irkut (in which has shares as it is private). and Irkut hast produce much except Flankers. And u are trying to compare a single LCA manufacture by India to Russia which has implement thousands of projects across various Industry. Sukhoi SSJ, Su-35, PAK-FA are built by Knaapo. and they have bought latest machinery, implemented new production process and trained 17,000 workers for that. most of them younger one as it is long term assignment. similar is case with Aviastar, Kapo etc.

Take it with a pinch of salt, even the first flight date, I’d wager the rough design aims have been frozen, and limited funding cleared to the respective institutes to work upon the overall design and subsystems. They can of course try to adopt current systems developed for the MiG-29K/ MiG-35 program, but I daresay they’ll want even more, and India will not agree to any workshare which does not have design responsibility. The last proposal stalled exactly on this point, and the Russian side came back with a revised estimate.

I have Densiov statment. India is very late. its steath aircraft. everything is internal according to fixed weight.
u cannot change deviate from that. Just look at JSF SDD phase.

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20070126/59805812.html
Rosoboronexport, Russia’s main state arms exporter, and HAL may sign a contract on developing a fifth-generation fighter four to five months later, a source close to the talks told the paper. He said Russia, which has already contributed $4 billion, needs a foreign partner

This is a complete misreading of the situation, the Brahmos and MKI remain the edge, because they have been productionized. The rest are paper models and prototypes with limited testing conducted, but ambitious aims, which can only be cleared if a launch customer is found. Furthermore, even the Brahmos and MKI program are not standing still. A MLU for the MKI whilst it is in production is planned, and the Brahmos is being improved further, with consideration to new seekers. The point is that these will be proven products which can be iteratively improved. The Su-34, once it gets into serial production and regular frontline service, might approach this status. The Su-35/ MiG-35 remain proposals and prototypes, and the MiG-31M is a limited reworking of an excellent platform, but limited by funding constraints.

u are deluding ur selft now. Kh-555/65/101 that Russia is testing for its airforce is as much in production as Tu-160/Tu-22/Tu-95 in exercises. and i have never heared anything related to Su-34/Su-24 even with Yakhont. they sold Yakhont to Vietnam. and they are developing Ultrasonics now. not anything like Brahmos.
and how is MIG-31M limited reworking? how do u figure that out?. Su-34 already has two serial production machines and 8 another Prototypes for various testing. they are slow in production because NAPO there is big upgrade going on. I have statement for this also.

The usage of the term “Brahmos model” comes from Indian reports of the PAK-FA-India tieup, it is too early to tell at this point.

It is too late already.

Lastly, the model was not established when russian industries were obsolete or wanted too much funds to start- if that was the case, then how was the russian side able to contribute to the program to begin with?

by the time actual contribution started. Russia had pretty much recovered and mostly electronics related. they didnot forsee things that slow and russia recovery so swift.

The issue was more simply one of management- being the first of its kind, they wanted a single point of contact and management over the entire program, and which was free of the bureaucratic restrictions of the MIC in both countries. Eg, India has several restrictions about FDI into Indian companies, whereas Russia has had the same viz. third country equal/majority stakeholder in their defence enterprise. Hence, a midway was to create a “paper org” with people seconded from the actual MICs, but which would not have to suffer these rules and constraints, and which could bypass the usual bureaucracy to operate.

this model wont apply. because there is too much disparity in capabilities now and India hast produced anything on time. Just look how long components for MKI devoped. by that time IRBIS/Zhuk-MSF/ZHuk-M3/Lenint already prepared. not to mention LPI for Su-34 in 2004.

Now if the reformed Aircraft corp in Russia still has these constraints, a similar program might be launched for the PAK-FA.

That constraints are so small. that is practically irrelvent in current state.

This is again a prototype. Without the internal schema, its even pointless to compare what is proposed versus what is achieved.

but radar and other subsytes like OLS-35 are already complete. they are tested on Su-30. 117S engine is complete on Su-27M and it is ready for PAK-FA flight.
just look at Simulator of Su-35. i havent seen any upgraded cockpit for MKI. it is same decade Old. things are moving slow.

Because it is not being publicised by HAL, nor is it regarded as an earth shattering event which will be tom tommed by the IAF. For instance, the IAF is planning to use its own HUMS on the MKI, the MKI’s MMI was developed by the IAF, including several unique combinations of western/ eastern concepts, there are several EW improvements…now apart from interest on the www, why would the IAF or HAL detail these improvements? The simple fact is that the MKI program grants design rights to India for modification, provided they dont abuse it by reexporting MKI-IIs to Russian markets, so a lot of iterative changes are planned for and will be implemented on the MKI in the coming years, not all of which will be publically tom tommed.

I am not referring to EW or Communication suite. every country has different requirements and may not want to expose to outside. Just read A-50M.
the simple fact is MKI program is too slow to implement. Most of the stuff is decade old by industry standard.
Just show how many billions operations it computer system can do.

India is supplying the EW fit for the MiG-29K, including an active jammer, as well as other key systems such as its onboard radio equipment etc. The Navy, is only purchasing 16 MiG-29K’s with a possible purchase of 30 more. They have to strike a balance between funding local development of subsystems or go with the more economical Russian alternative. With a limited acquisition, it simply does not make sense for them to fund large scale system development ab-initio. In contrast, the MKI run is over 100 production units, the Jaguar & MiG-27 upgrade units are for 80 combined with more certainly on the way etc.

but the same system of MIG-29K will apply to MIG-29SMT or even to Kopyo. as they are same technology. if u can do one u can do all.
so what is India contribution to all these Radar systems based on MKI program.

Not really, the russian workshare agreement will ask the Indian side to focus on key areas, and that will begin from this point of time. Its that straightforward.

Provide that key areas are strong enough. It is not strong enough for current Russia offerings late alone doing some thing for future.