star49May end up a bit like the Su-30MKI vs Su-32/-34 two seat flanker situation. India and the Russians got together and created the Su-30MKI from western and Russian and Indian parts/technology, while the Su-34 no doubt benefitted from that work but was largely for Russian use only.
Perhaps the Chinese and or the Indians might collaborate on a new generation fighter, but the Russians will continue with their own development for their own use. Technology might be shared but the results will be different with the Russian aircraft being kept more secret.
If u share the technology. One day they may figure out to obtain the same results. it seems they want to sell the end product this time not the know how. selling license and technolgy is different thing. India has the license to MKI but it does not own R&D like Brahmos project.
and Su-34 can never be made from MKI license.
RIAN, Sept 1, 2006.
The Su-34, due to enter service with bomber squadrons soon, has an active-safety system with artificial-intelligence elements. This system enables the plane to execute just about any stunt and combat maneuver and to fly at treetop and ground level at a maximum speed of 1,400 kph. The Su-34 can also fly in TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching) mode, bypassing unexpected obstacles and streaking through ground air-defense zones.Simonov said the Su-34 is just as difficult to detect as a supersonic cruise missile.
The above-mentioned digital computer and a front horizontal empennage behind the cockpit ensure in-flight stability at treetop level. Such an empennage, which is clearly seen in the photo of the bomber, handles the air pockets that plague any high-speed aircraft at low altitudes. The plane’s crew can therefore conduct effective bombing runs, take evasive action, destroy enemy weapons and steer clear of missiles and anti-aircraft shells
star49I think both India & China has the potential and a 5th Gen Aircraft program on design board to prove that statement wrong.
This statement can never be wrong. I am not sure u even understand it.
star49there wont be 3rd country with indigenous Fifth generation fighter.
United Aircraft-Manufacturing Corporation to reach max capacity by 2015 – defense minister
MOSCOW. Dec 13 (Interfax-AVN) – The Russian United Aircraft Corporation will reach its maximum production capacity by 2015, Russian Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said in an interview with the Izvestiya daily, published on Wednesday.
Ivanov said he had recently asked the president to order the drafting of a decree to include the United Aircraft Corporation in the list of Russian strategic enterprises.
Providing the Russian armed forces with state-of-the-art products will be among the corporation’s priorities, Ivanov said.
“First of all, this involves the construction of a fifth generation tactical fighter, the adoption of the Yak-130 combat trainer, and a program for replacing Il-76s’ engines for the military’s transport aviation needs,” Ivanov said.
The United Aircraft Corporation could cooperate with foreign partners under certain programs, Ivanov said. “For instance, attracting foreign capital and inviting foreign partners possessing modern technology into the civil and transportation aviation sector will only be welcomed,” Ivanov said.
“The corporation’s military aviation will be closed to foreign capital” in the interests of “the country’s national security,” Ivanov said
star49Yeah whatever, I have no interest in a my-penis-is-bigger-than-yours pissing contest. The unfortunate fact for you is that Indian indigenous programs have cost a lot, delivered little and India still relies on foreign technology.
The unfortunate fact is that u dont know enough. China military spending could be as high as $100B while India can be as low as $15b as they dont usually spend all of it. and now u add the past 20 years compounding effect. the difference could be $200b to $300b in todays money. now u can say the gap is worth that money. i dont think so.
star49As I’ve stated over and over my opinion is India is looking to take a leap………that of course is just my opinion! Also, if India wants a type that can be easily supported in its current structure. Then forget the MMRCA and just order more Su-30’s………………..:rolleyes:
FLY NAVY:cool:
Thats is ur misconception by associating leap with F-18. I dont think IAF will be spending next 15 years on integrating an aircraft which is inferior to what they already have or access to have cheaply.
star49With the exception of the Mig-29 and Mirage most are obsolete and will be retired very shortly…………..and the latter two are mainly Air Defense. Yet, like you said multi-role (strike fighters) is the way to go…………….:rolleyes:
Mig-29 is going to convert into multi-role. and super hornet is too slow for a fighter role. (Mach 1.6 only) and have no 3D TVC which are essential for BVR fight. and there is no assuarnce whether IAF can integrate anything from outside. MIG-35 platform gives them the maximum flexibility by integrating French, Israeli , Russian and Indian equipment just like MKI.
even Rafale cannot do that. as most of systems are designed for it and is underpowered and shorter range than MIG-35.
star49Well, buying multiple types from multiple sources nevers seem to be a problem for India!:eek:
but that was before when aircraft were single role
like
MIG-21 & Su-7
MIG-23& Jaguar
MIG-29& Mirage-2000
Now everything is multi-role with alot of customization of product with end user input. so mature platform is not advantage but rather a disadvantage as u have to go back to drawing board for alot of systems. and it is not the nuclear reactors that is important rather who can assure Nuclear fuel supply for long term. so Russia is more important than West.
star49Considering some of the countrys that france has sold weapons too (Iraq, Libya, South Africa etc) I think the people here having a go at the brits should keep their mouths shut. The arms trade is a dirty buisness and everybody knows it.
I havent seen Chirac or for that matter any French leadaer moving around the world preaching Freedom and Democracy. France represents what they stand for. that is not the case for Britain. they badly managed this thing.
star49The Rafale is an excellent fighter both from landbases and ship! Yet, for many reasons I don’t see it as very likley? (i.e. mainly political) Really, to bad and I would like to see the Rafale finally win a export order…………….I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Saudi’s order a small number though….:rolleyes:
the main abstacle is price. Rafale fly away price is $70m. and add to that at what price will be France willing to give complete technolgy transfer for engines, radar, avionics to India? not to mention giving programmable eccm for AAMs and further Indian input in the aircraft.
the same is true for F-18E.
India has already got license of AL-31,RD-33, AL-55 and working on kaveri. I dont see that can absorb one another engine.
star49Oh really? Why don’t you check the world wide market of nuclear reactor installations and tell me who got the most?
i have already figure out. who will build the first floating reactor, who will have the most uranium enrichment facilities and have bought uranium rights and have half the world nuclear fuel cycle.
And how is a TOKAMAC reactor not real fundamental research.
Do you know actually what a TOKAMAC is?
i can figure out things quiet well. u just concentrate on china. again u dont have anything of ur own. every thing comes from Russia.
AN ‘ARTIFICIAL sun’ to produce clean energy from nuclear fusion will be built this spring in Hefei, East China, according to a story in the China Daily. Dubbed ‘East’, the new experimental advanced Tokamak device will work in a similar way to Europe’s planned International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) by fusing together the atomic nuclei of tritium and deuterium to release energy, similar to the reactions that occur in the sun.
‘There is no conflict between East and ITER,’ said ITER’s interim project leader Yasuo Shimomura: ‘East is an experimental device, in which fusion will occur but on a very small scale, whereas ITER will be the first fusion reactor to demonstrate large scale fusion.’
At a total investment of nearly Yuan300m/(30m [euro]/$37m), East will be an upgrade of China’s first superconducting device, HT-7, built in partnership with Russia in the early 1990s. Shimomura commented, ‘East will contribute to ITER in terms of the physics research and the training of people for ITER.’
A final decision on the building of ITER in Cadareche in France is expected next month
ICIS Chemical Business Jan, 2006
I don’t have to tell you this asshole. You can check with Janes, KANWA, Interfax, Mosnews, and a whole variety of sites you can google with.
I want to see Sukhoi confirmation not media speculation on quantity of planes. No one can figure out exact number of MIG-29 to Algeria. each report is different than the other.
I am stringing you along just to show how deluded you are living in your own little fantasy world.
and u are not living in fantasy world.
Wrong. Russia has no jurisdiction over the Chinese Phalcon AWACS. The plane is owned by the Chinese and so they have a right to modify it which way they can. Russia will not of course, guarantee any support on the plane if the plane breaks apart or have problems. But the bottomline remains, Russia no longer has any jurisdiction whatsover on the Chinese owned planes.
so why that AWACS was tested in Russia untill mid1999? and why Israel got it so late after signing the agreement.
Lol. That was the beginning of the evaluation. What is more important is what happened in the end. Furthermore, since you are quite an ass, the MKMs also will have parts manufactured in India, since HAL will be manufacturing sections of the plane, at least purportedly to, since there now seems to be problems on the manufacturing plans.
I have seen what happened at the end. there are agreements wtih France and SA for communciation and EW stuff the rest is just media speculation.
Why is it secret? First of all, arms treaty requires declaration of items to the UN arms registry. Thats why Sukhoi declares the number of planes it exports to China.
so how many tank engines went to Iran from russia if that register is so accurate and every thing is declared.
Second military cooperation secret? As you can see from one example after another, the Russians don’t keep their mouths shut. You know why? Because the ADVERTISING value is enormous. Sukhoi was requested not to talk about the MKK orders but did so anyway. China requested not to talk about the Sovremanny orders but they hit the headlines anyway. The J-10 is China’s secret plane project, but didn’t stop Salut hitting the headlines with such a deal.
the things on which they have kept mouth shut. u wont even know it so how can u even comment on it. It is technological cooperation. do u even know the origin of ur A-100 MRLS.
Bull. Sometimes you use the assembly line to do major upgrades and airframe overhauls. Repair and maintenance is an upgrade? More and more your freaking ignorance is showing. In many airframe overhauls and upgrades, the planes are literally taken apart and then rebuilt bolt by bolt. As for the radar, they had many component upgrades, not the least I told you are the Modular Mission computers.
so it means the more older aircraft are there for upgrade the smaller the number of new aircraft produced by a factory. and u havent provided any evidence of those upgrades in all those years from 1999 to 2003. i want to see how many per year.
Talk about the Lavi for one thing. And the Python 3 license for another. Talk about the fire control systems in China’s T series tanks that seemed Israeli in design and origin.
and most of Israel highly skilled population are russian immigrants. right away upto prime minister. they didnot develop these science inside Israel. they brought it from outside. so u are getting that science from 3rd party.
Because it makes good headlines.
More ignorance. Cloning does not mean you got the exact product. Cloning generally means the business refused to share its secret so the competitors reverse engineer a replica. That is not technology transfer.
if u dont have the assembly line to begin with so how can u possibly figure out other things. first u have to sell the product than license and at the end there is attempt at cloning.
That’s nonsense. Miltary technical cooperation is actually decreasing. IL-76 contract is dead, and the RD-93 deal has quality engine problems. If Klimov does not fix the engines, the buy is greatly periled, regardless if Putin allows the engines to be reexported to Pakistan. No more new Kilos and Sovremannies. Only near possible buys are the Su-33s and possibly more engines for the J-10s.
just the Sukhoi spare parts are now in hundred of millions dollars. there centre for training Chinese engineers inside China. Russia get the money anyway wheter it is reported or not. here is some more gem. u cannot even make a half decent trainer without russia and not to meniont UAV engines.
Furthermore, I’m pretty sure your argument is something you just pulled out of your ass as always. If anything Russia seems so inclined to boast about its massive arms shipments to show their position in the market.
nope they also get for keeping quiet. as they repeatedly point at China in almost every news item.
You’re really fun of nonsense do you? Scientific knowledge is not confined by national boundaries. What, are you familiar that scientists publish papers and journals? A scientist in Xian can read the same journals published in the US as a scientist in Moscow. And I’m pretty sure, a scientist in New York can read the papers published by a scientist in Beijing.
You’re just so unreal. You really have no concept how the real world works. You have pretty much confirmed to everyone here you’re nothing but a juvenile idiot.
Scientific knowledge is confined by national boundries to maintain competitive edge. It is either stolen, sold or intentially released for benefit of others.
star49Bull****. Areva and Westinghouse already built reactors more advanced than the Russians, not to mention being more safe and has more safeguards in preventing use of depleted material for other uses.
Already built more advance? where.and if they are so good Bulgaria would not have given $5B contract to Russia considering east european country past.
Not to mention China is also deeply researching into pebble bed reactors.
China research is mostly concerned with customizing foreign products to local markets. it is not a research in real sense.
Ask yourself now who has the largest and most powerful Tokamac reactor in the world for nuclear fusion research?
and who will built the most reactors in coming decades. it will settle the whose research is succesful.
I don’t need to prove COMMON KNOWLEDGE to you.
common knowledge based on what. u said sukhoi has confirmed it. now where is the confirmation.
No. The plane was from China then sent to Israel and back to China. Beriev’s own modifications for A-50 are not the same as the A-50I’s.
Russia didnot allow anyone to do any modification with IL-76. read why GEC Marconi Argus 2000 AWACS deal fell apart.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1997/03/19/173/Russia+agrees+Il-76+sale+to+IAI+for+AEW.html
Beriev calls the aircraft the A-50I (I for Israelsky). The company will carry out airframe modifications before it is delivered to IAI for the installation of a radome-housed Elta phased-array antennas
Oh they do. In addition to changes, India also supplied component processors to improve signal processing.
when RMAF start evaluating Su-30MK from 2001 was it with Indian components. the original manufacture has to provide upgrade path upto 40 years to clinch such a deals. no one depend on third parties for radar, engine and weopons.
Nonsense. As a democratic country, such agreements are subject to public accountability. Arms agreements with other countries are all subject to scrutiny, transparency as decreed by arms treaty.
thats why Gripen contributions are pretty obvious. there alot of non-democractic countries that Russia deals with in military field but why they specically called military cooperation to remain secret as requested by Chinese side. why they single one country.
You are really ignorant are you? The upgrades include modular mission computers that were first featured with the F-16MLU and Block 20. There were also changes in the avionics, for example, adding color CRTs.
so what this has to do with build new F-16s on assembly line? and why would USAF upgrade everything else but not the radars if u say they were upgrading at that time. which u havent provided any evidence. now dont call repair and maintainance as upgrade.
Wrong. While you cannot transport components, you can however, transport knowledge.
Suffice to say by the time the deal expired, China would have gathered enough information.
why would Israel transfer knowledge to China.? they havent to India. this there livelihood. they will not share advance knowledge with any one. offcourse in ur own dreams u can steal knowledge all the time.
More nonsense from you. US and Japan needed to ease up their massive trade imbalance with Japan buying from the US. As far as secret miltiary technical agreements go, the F-2 project is quite transparent and you can find GOA reports on it.
so little defence project can solve the trade balance issue?
Bull. You don’t know business do you? McDonald’s has a secret recipe with its lard, just as Coke has a secret recipe with its concentrate. Lots of Coke clones but none is able to replicate the exact taste. The formula alone is worth billions and a recent case of corporate espionage, a Coke employee tried to sell the formula to Pepsi, who instead, called the FBI in.
every business has a secret formula. but it does not prevent cloning of it to a maximum extent.
It is public knowledge, as Sukhoi and Rossoboronexport declared the export as per export procedure and arms treaty regulation. You keep forgeting that arms transfers have to be formally declared to the UN.
there is incentive for them to understate there deliveries as Chinese side does not want publicity of massive arms shopping so its image remains intact and also to show its defence industry in good light. offcourse China pays for it for Russia to remain quiet as evident from there statements that military technical cooperation is increasing.
Why don’ you search huh? What, cat got your tongue?
this answer is not very difficult to get. some one made employment comparision figures with HAL but it reveal the other side in some other way.
Science is international cooperation. Maybe you need to understand that. As a matter of fact some of these scientists were educated and grew up in China. I only see this as your poor attempt to conceal your obvious racism.
matter of fact? these scientist may have get elementary education in china but nothing to do with transferring scientific and research knowledge to other countries or any institutional base for it.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic…D=2006606200397
Sightseeing in the grim industrial city of Novosibirsk is not to be recommended. But like Moscow and St. Petersburg, the area does have significant scientific resources, one example being the Boreskov Institute of Catalysis. With its impressive research facilities and large, highly educated staff, Boreskov is a potential goldmine of fundamental chemical knowledge for an automaker working on new emissions technology.[“This is a world center of excellence for catalysis,” notes Jim Spearot, director of GM’s chemical and environmental sciences laboratory. “We did research here in the 1970s when the first exhaust catalysts came out, so GM has deep respect for this institute.”
This scenario is echoed at the St. Petersburg State University and Polytechnic, as well as Moscow’s State University, the Yukos research center and the Kurchatov Institute, site of Russia’s first nuclear reactor and an important resource for GM’s hydrogen research. All these facilities and more in Russia hold great promise for automotive-related advances in electronics and engineered materials, Spearot believes
star49Comparing Mica to R-77 is the same as comparing Exocet to Brahmos.
small modernization of R-77 is entering in year or so and big modernization in 2010 with 100 to 250% increase in range , 100 seconds time, dual warheads, antimissile defense, rear protection.
star49Most advanced in China now? What a joke. Areva and Westinghouse wasn’t in the running at that time.
come back when Areva and westinghouse built some thing on that scale and sophistication inside china. untill that point. Russians are the most advanced ones.
I don’t have to confirm to you as apparently you are the only one in the world that does not seem to know this. This is already a matter of public record in Sinodefense, SIPRI, Global Sec, Scramble.nl, Janes and other publications.
u claimed sukhoi has confirmed. where is sukhoi confirmation?
China provided the aircraft directly to Israel. The plane wasn’t certified or modified by the Russians.
Didnot the first A-50I went from Beriev in 1999 to Israel from Russia? Israel made agreement in 1996 with China. why there was 3 years gap?
You really don’t know do you? There were things in BARS that wasn’t working right and the Indians had to fix it. So yeah, the code goes to the Malaysian and Algerian planes as well.
what they fix? they have absolutely nothing to do with intellectual property of BARS.
So I challenge you. Is Gripen an indigenous Swedish plane or not?
did sweden sign secret agreements with other countries to hide military technical cooperation.
Many of the MLUs are done in LM and so are the Block 50/52 upgrades.
what upgrade u are referring to in 1999 period for block 50/52. they still carry the old early 90s radar. i can certainly dig out but i want to see how far ur illogic goes.
You really cannot answer do you?
i know the answer the
Lol. You just pulled that out of your ass. For the same token, they should not trust Phalcon then because it is more likely the source of the KJ-2000 technology.
US has made completely sure that nothing goes from Phalcon to China. even in the last flight outside Israel there were Israel team inside it. India has complete faith in this system.
Wrong. I have never seen a pure arms technology transfer agreement that amounts to arms deals that exceed or match hundreds of millions of dollars. Even the Japanese F-2 agreement requires significant importation from LM and GE.
how can u see secret military-technical cooperation agreements. US does not need Japanese money as much as russian needed Chinese money in the 90s upto early 21st century.
GM does not license its cars in China or around the world. It builds them in partnership with local firms or set up a plant of its own. Even then, the local subsidiary has to purchase kits from parent company.
the same is true just for any other license. u gradually increase domestic content.
You really don’t know about business do you? You open up a McDonald’s. They don’t transfer you even the formula to make the cooking oil. You have to buy buckets of lard straight from the main corporation itself.
thats to ensure uniform taste of food.
If you open up a Coke bottling plant, does Coke ever share you the secret formula or recipe? No. You still have to buy the concentrate from them.
there are alot of clones of Coke produced in the world with similar tastes.
I don’t have to back up my claims because everyone already knows about it, the 38 Su-30MKKs both in the first and second order are public knowledge, and that’s officially registered.
Publci knowledge? based on what?
But you have to back up your claim about China’s military industrial complex having more people than any other complex in the world.
this thing is so easy to prove. u have to just search this form. u will get the answer;)
What an idiot. You are backpedaling your statements.
This is what you said:
You are now a proven liar.
I said Chinese scientist in western countries. meaning working in western countries. I didnot mean that he has to grow up and study in West.
star49And what a project. China and Russia signed up on this back in 1998 when other countries are reluctant because Tiananmen was still fresh when the negotiations occured. The project has balloned in cost from 2.5 billion to 3.2 billion, and now there are reports of corrosion in steam pipes.
and how much will it cost to build two western equivalent plants? u can get only one for price of two russians.
The bigger the power plant does not necessarily means it is more advanced. We look at the size in relation to power, and then the safety features.
they are the most advanced one in China now and thats they won in Bulgaria winning from Areva and westinghouse.
Check with Sukhoi, boy.
u said that Sukhoi has confirmed it. so provide that information.
Bull. You can deal with aerodynamics by studying it closely with an air tunnel and technology demonstrators. Fuel consumption? You care dealing with a cargo aircraft that can hold tons of fuel. Structural modification? The dome is being added externally, not internally. You need to identify the strongest part of the aircraft frame to attach it and consequently strengthen, which is of course, in the spine of the plane where it cross sections with the main wing spars. That’s too obvious.
keep dreaming about it.If China would have been capable of doing. it would have directly provided aircraft to Israel. why go through Russian certification process first time and keep delaying the deal by 2 years which ultimately killed it.?
Really? And in every post war, Russian supplied radars were easily jammed. India had to give its input to “fix” the Bars radar and the Brahmos seeker. Not one of China’s civil airport radars are Russian; all are either Western or domestic.
because they exported down graded radars to poor client states which can be easily jammed. and what Indian input is in Malaysian and Algerian Bars? they dont need any one.
Bull. The FC-1 and the J-10 are made in one country. By your definition, the Gripen isn’t Swedish indigenous.
Sweden isnt a country which is signing confidentiallity agreement to hide military technical cooperation. Gripen international participation is obvious.
Wow, and you somehow forgot all those NATO MLUs and USAF Block 50/52 upgrades going on.
how many NATO F-16s are MLUed in new assembly line in US? and where is USAF APG-68(v9)?
Lol. Your ignorance of technological development is staggering. All Western and foreign input can give you are directions and clues. In actual development work, you have to take all the steps and sweat yourself.
thats ur assumption. by that logice u could have build just anything which is not the case.
Really? And who? Americans?
why it has to be americans and even that stealing of knowledge is possible.
Is it already flying? Is it already certified? Or is it just market brochure. I don’t think India has much faith on the pure Russian A-50 either, since they are opting for the Phalcon.
India does not have faith because they know A-50 technolgoy is sold to China. the same way they dont have faith in S-300 either.
What an idiot. If you know enough about active delta canards, you would know that the only possible way this layout could leave the ground is with a good FBW.
so?
Bull. You don’t have any idea about the reality of business. Selling tech and information and even licensing will earn you far less than selling an entire material product.
not necessary. u can just make more money from licensing upfront rather than waiting for it. by ur logic no car manufacture has make plants in China as they can direclty sell it and make more profit.
Google it yourself asshole. Give me the actual numbers hired by the so called Chinese military industrial establishment as a whole.
i know the answer i just dont want o spoon feeding u for free. u havent provided any thing to back ur claims.
star49What a racist fool.
Want to know some Chinese nobel prize winners?
http://www.nobel-winners.com/Physics/samuel_chao_chung_ting.html
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1997/index.html
this from ur own links that u posted. the same is true for the others.
He was educated at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, where he received his doctorate in 1962. Ting taught briefly at Columbia University and was group leader at a nuclear facility at Hamburg, W.Ger., before joining the faculty of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, in 1967, becoming a professor in 1969.
u never understood my statement thats why u put irrelevant links. these people are educated and worked in West and has consumed that knowledge and thats why they got that position. They didnot bring that knowledge from China. China is not capable of producing that knowledge that is consumed by West or Russia.
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