star49The SuperHorror weghts ~13.5 tons. I can’t understand how the Su 35 could be lighter , considering that the basic Su weights over 17 tons, not to mention that newer engines are heavier!
but that 13.5 tons uses all advance materials like 35% composites. which is not the case with current Flanker. this one is the old one and in general to all flankers.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1994/articles/oct_94/oct2a_94.html
Designers made little attempt to lower the Su-35’s radar cross-section, which is considerable. Composites have been used sparingly in its construction. The airplanes have no indication of internal structural or external surface materials to reduce radar return. Attempts to blend surfaces have been made only to accommodate aerodynamic requirements
and newer engines has TWR or 10. so how can they be heavier?
The phase of flight tests of the prototype of the generation five bypass engine, which was called “object 117” (the official name is AL-41F1A), finished successfully. This engine is a modernized version of the AL-31F (object 99). The new engine will be installed on new modifications of the Su-27 fighter. Saturn used the experience gained during the creation of the prototype of the AL-41F engine (the enterprise conducted development tests and tests on board the MiG-25 flight laboratory; two test flights of “Object 1.44” (MiG) equipped with such engines took place in 2000). The thrust of the prototype is 14,500 kilogram-force.
Object 117 is equipped with a new fan, new low and high pressure turbines and a new digital control system. It’s supposed to use the nozzle with adjustable thrust vector.
To date five objects 117 have been built. The first passed development tests in 2003 (117-1); two engines (117-2 and 117-3) were tested on board the Su-27M No. 710 flight laboratory. The flight tests began in March 2004. The flight laboratory equipped with two engines performed its first flight in June 2004. Around 30 flights were performed during the first phase of tests. Victor Chepkin said that all tests were passed successfully. In particular, designers checked the engine’s performance at the maximum speed (M=2.25-2.35). Standard Su-27M fighters previously could not exceed M=1.8-1.9
To all appearances, such engines will be installed on the T-50 prospective fighter, which Sukhoi currently creates within the framework of the program of the prospective aircraft complex of the front aviation. Saturn design generation 5+ engine for generation five fighters, which will feature enhanced characteristics. (…) The specific weight of the AL-31F (the ratio of weight and thrust) is around 0.12; object 117S – 0.1. The next generation engine will feature 0.08.
Source: Vzlet, No. 12, 2005, p. 22
star49Egypt won’t go again for Russian stuff.
so how come russian upgraded SA-3 and was paraded forces day and sold more air defence systems. there goes ur theory of not buying russian stuff.
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20061018/54917248.html
Unique surface-to-air missile baffles foreign military diplomats in Egypt
Not after what the Soviets did to them in 1976 – stopped all spares deliveries and confiscated some 100 MiG-21s in overhaul on Soviet soil.
soviet=russia?
so why it didnot happened to syria or any other country. ever thought about it.
Also, if they buy Russian, they can say goodbye to low-price F-16s and spares/training for them.
they are linked to peace deal with israel as long as peace is maintain F-16 will be delivered.
star49they should first sell those Mirage-2000 to India. this will get them some cash.
retire all obsolete stuff like F-4/Mig-21 etc.
I doubt US will sell them AIM-120C7/AIM-120D. this is the kind of weopons russia will be offering for air to air and they themselve put MIG-29 in F-15C class.
FC-1 may sneak in because of its low cost and engine commonality with MIG.
star49i was correct about weight comparision but how this is thing is going to be lighter than F-18.
“The Su-35 is a response to the U.S. F/A-18E/F. They boast similar equipment and combat employment principles, though, the U.S. aircraft is heavier. The U.S. has earlier won the race by fielding better avionics and armament, but I hope it will not be the case with the Su-35,” Klementyev said.
According to him, the Su-35 is fitted with new armament and the upgraded AL-31F power plant. “Its thrust will be increased from 12.5 to 14 tonnes. The acceleration, rate of climb, and maneuverability of the aircraft will improve sharply. The engine boasts a long service life as well,” he said.
The contemporary after-sales services network and logistics support, enjoyed by the Su-35, provide the aircraft with a flying time of 6,000 hours, and a service life of 40 years, Klementyev said
(Interfax-AVN)
star49The proposal envisages importing the first 18 aircraft from the US, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured in India through strategic partners
the proposal does not indicate licensing cost of 108 aircraft. if they are implying that 18+108 license= $6b to $9b and that only to boeing than i think it is out of IAF pocket.
star49I seriously doubt MIg-29 will fulfil the mount of aircraft required by Cairo. FC-1 will still have a chance to serve Egypt AF!
the only way FC-1 can compete by offerring significanly lower price just to make numbers. MIG-29 upgraded is more in league of F-15C interms of TWR, range, radar, BVR, newer IRST etc.
Ahead of his visit, Mubarak, who undertook military studies in Moscow in the 1960s, praised Russia’s anti-aircraft systems and fighter jets as “the best in the world” in an interview with Vremya Novostei
CAIRO: In what some analysts expect to be a major weapons procurement policy shift, Egypt is considering a Russian offer to sell the advanced MiG-29 fighter jet.
Chief of Staff General Hussam Sueweilam told The Daily Star Egypt that Egypt’s decision to purchase the MiG-29 fighter planes from Russia should not be considered a deviation from standard Egyptian policy, adding that Egypt has fighter planes from different countries. He stated that the Egyptian Air Force has French Mirage planes and US-made F-16s.
Suweilam added that the reason behind Egypt’s intent to purchase the MiG-29s was that the Egyptian air force needed newer planes.
“We must update our planes,” Suweilam said “[at present] we have MiG-21s which are old planes made in the fifties”.
“The MiG-29 is an interception fighter plane suitable for defense of air space. The American equivalent is the F-15 and the MiGs are cheaper.” Suweilam added
star49The end product may be a 20-30 (actually more like 40+ year) investment but the initial outlay, actually buying and equiping the thing, is a 5-10 year investment. Thus the IN has effectively gone for the cheapest realistic option considering that the sea harriers are reaching the end of their lives and it is unlikely that the IN will procure another V/STOL type in the near future due to limited availability.
If the Indians wanted to do this properly, they should have contracted a European company to do the design (BAe, Thales, DCN, etc) then constructed it in India with technology transfer from said company and procured a number of Rafales, sure keep the Ka-32 AEW or go for a solution like the british AEW seakings. Personally I would still have kept displacement at around 40k for financial reasons as well as this being a first attempt. The result would have been considerable experience for Indian industry and designers with right ToT deal and a good modern vessel with alot of life in it. Not to mention a ship that is specifically designed as a full deck ‘true’ aircraft carrier from the start rather than being a seemingly akward rebuild of a carrier-cruiser hybrid.
and how many year would it have taken for such a technology transfer?. just look at first scorpene submarine schedule and its not even designing from the ground up. and we are not even going into price of rafale/f-18 and adding one extra aircraft to HAL to work on.
star49I thought that some members were labeling it as Fifth gen. fighter !!
they may be referring to weight class.
star49On the stand of ” Sukhoi ” is represented also the model Su-35 in the composition with the newest air-to-air missile under the code name ” design 170 “, which it at present develops by corporation “tactical missile armament”. This missile can strike aerial targets at the distance of more than 200 km.
I guess it is the same missile for MIG-31.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061102/55328497.html
The modernized interceptor will feature unique air-to-air missiles capable of hitting targets at ranges exceeding 200 kilometers (125 miles), including aircraft with stealth capabilities, cruise missiles, and supersonic aircraft, Army General Vladimir Mikhailov said
Mikhailov said the modernized supersonic interceptor will become a formidable rival to all fifth-generation fighters, due to enhanced radar detection and tracking capabilities, and a wide array of advanced weaponry
star49hmm, they interviewed with the people that were watching the military exercises between flankers and J-10. Flankers were getting hammered. Whether you believe it or not will not change the fact. Again, I don’t want to turn this into J-10 vs flanker thread. I’m telling you that if China could get Rafale instead of su-33, it would. In fact, I think I would take 1 Rafale over 2 su-33s.
it is more speculation. the only reason will be if J-10 use updated avionic/weopon system compare to early 80s Flanker. I would take 1 Su-33 over 3 rafales.
Are you even listening to yourself? Politicians don’t lie now?
these are not politicians. they are company officials. can toyota official make false claims regarding performance.
huh? the good old Zhuk-MSE. That really was helpful. Remember when it was suppose to be ready? And notice who it never got on any mkk?
it may have cost extra money so they may want simpler radar. ZHUK-ME/Kopyo/MSE uses the same software and technlogy. so no reason to believe if one is ready the other will be not.
again, it’s not the radar itself, it’s the components for the radar that’s the problem. Where do you have a Russian plant that is mass producing T/R modules?
why i put link. that manufacture MMIC. and what is meant by mass production. usually u need a few dozen radars for testing and few thousand modules.
because I’m tired of you bringing stuff into the argument that has nothing to do with the topic.
why i has nothing to with the topic? I just showed other countries are even worse in fullfilling export contracts.
that’s what you think. Are you the project manager now? I mean have you ever worked before? How often do you think engineering project have to make changes in the middle and then take longer than they should.
when customer requirements are changed they have to change the schedule. there is nothing technical about it. it is objectives that was changed. now every thing is fixed untill 2009.
star49It costs about $45 million to $60 million per unit, while one F-15K is valued at about $105 million
they are comparing fly away to total cost. F-16 isnt cheaper to F-15.
star49Above article also states…The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.
winning a tender does not mean it is signed. it can be re-tendered. MIG already has signed two agreements for upgradation and engine manufacture with India. It can only mean that IAF intent is for longer stay and additional MIGs. otherwise why bother with extra cost of licensing and manufacture engines. MKI engine license price price is similar to RD-33 license ($286m to $250m) and former is for 920 engines.
Anyway the article once again gives rise to the question that if these engines can’t be re-exported to Pakistan and that PLAAF/PLAN has not made any commitments to FC-1 yet, who are those 100 engines meant to be for???
engines are always signed before aircraft is ordered. LCA/JSF engine were signed before airforces put signed order.
star49The scorpène is a submarine
if they can spend billions and timefor 50 person crew submarine because it is silent so it is protective and will not spend the right amount of money and time so its 2000 person aircraft carrier is not top of the line.
1) Of course it’s not yet at that moment, I wrote it yesterday. The point is that YOU said the M88-3 cannot be available before 10 years. I said that engine can be available around 2010.
2) There is such thing as proposing. I doubt that a company can have lots of products but don’t even know if there are some customers all around.
the point is u dont have the engine thats u r not putting in ur own forces. it is not the case for Flankers. there engine was designed for bigger MIG fighter and now it is for another fifth generation. Flanker are existing engine modification without complexity.
My point: the rafale, if “underpowered” for your taste can have a smooth upgrade for it.
Your opint: The flanker has perhaps an upgrade but that hasn’t been made for it.
look above. rafale is underpowered because it does not thave the engine.
Could you give me a link that establish that ot took a full decade ?
it was signed in 1997 and now it is 2006. has it been completed and half of the aircraft are just upgrade.
5 or 10 years ? The UAE has -9 and not -5
it does not matter any where u look around it is the same time frame.
link, sources, articles please
look when algerain deal was signed for SMT and first aircraft is delieverd with in this year.
Link, source, articles please.
it is in this forum. search for turkey and f-16.
What hasn’t been updated ?
every thing. payload, range, engine, MTOW.
A prototype ….
fully developed plane ready for immediate production but not new one like MIG-29K.
The F-15K was available before the RAfale Mk2, no problem but the Mk2 was still in the 2008 range, so compatible with Korean requirements.
this is ur assumption.
I never state that the Rafale was a better choice for the IN.
About a Su-33 Mki, I’m not that sure. The rafale is an operationnal plane, I’m not sure the Su-33 can be seen as such;
Su-33 alteast in air to air role. Su-27KUB fully certified with another radar.
“Old” Mig-29K ? What’s the new one ?
the new one is IN not built before.
star49They don’t use russian gear because they know that russian planes are inferior to western planes. Thus, they turned down every russian offers during evaluations.
how can ROK/Singapore know anything. have they ever fought war by themselves. India has alteast 4 or 5 wars under its credentials on its own.
And if IN had gone for a real carrier (with catapultes, no ramp take-offs aircraft carrying cruiser) they would have a bought either Rafale or Super Hornet not Mig 29K or Su33. Once they bought the Admiral Gorshkov (modified STOBAR) they were trapped with a russian planes solution.
u have arbitrary definition of real carrier. were u going to do competition between two carriers on its merits without support ships.
No one is going to buy rafale/superhornet for evan land air force let alone putting on a carrier.
star49India want to buy Mig-29K, why would the RAfale can be an option ?
BTW in fact, it seems that Russian MAKE India buy it with the carrier.
that speak for the quality of the plane.
and why they would buy russian carrier? they could go the french way like Scorpene. and what about the second carrier. carriers are fro 30 to 40 years.
Should a customer be interested into that engin it would be available in the next few years.
So, ok, the next decade, but not in 10 years.
And yes, even for 59 Rafale, SNECMA can propose a more powerful engine.
More to see in the M88 thread of that forum.
if it was ready they would have taken it. there is no such thing as proposing.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
how much thrust was produced for MIG-1.42 flight.
Stop mixing everything as soon as you lost an argument, just like the 40% more powerful AL-31 the line above.
You said “the mirage 2000-9 is a small upgrade”. I said it was the most complex upgrade that you can think of.
putting some radar modes and certifying some air to ground weopons should not take a decade.
And now you’re comparing it with the upgrade from the Mig-29 to the -29K (or -29SMT, it’s when figures are in your favor or not).
The new Mig-29 are nearly totally different, yes, perhaps that the airframe of the Mig couldn’t allowed Mig a smooth evolution in opposite with Mirage or F-16.
smooth evolution for M2k/F-16? it takes more than 5 years just to upgrade from M2K to M2K-5 (greek/uae)but it takes only 6 months to upgrade Mig-29 to SMT standard. just look at F-16MLU for Turkey. first aircraft after 6 years.
So, I stand correct. A bigger plane than the rafale has a better range of “50 km”. By using your way of thinking, the range of the Mig-29 is ridiculous.
u are incorrect. that MIG website is not updated.
The -OVT isn’t a final versions.
i didnot mentioned its final version. it is old MIG-29M with TVC. not new built.
The name of the winner of the competition has never been released.
Both planes were close, by knowing that the F-15 enjoyed a huge advantage with the ROK using US planes, it only means that the Rafale was ahead globally speaking AND that it was obviously the winner of the competition 🙂
AFter that, Korea bought the F-15 K (without AESA :D) but only to keep the american support.
i am sure ROK has time line in mind. they got F-15 way earlier with full multirole capability than only air to air version Rafale.
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