star49If India had gone for a real carrier, they would have bought Rafale or Super Hornet. They wouldn’t have bought a new version of an ill born russian jet.
so why doesnt IN chose Rafale/Superhornet for its second carrier? and there decision was right even in first case.
In the S-Korean contest, the Su-35 was eliminated the first from the competition (with F-15K, Rafale, Eurofighter, Su-35 in competition). By your reasoning, it speaks for itself for the tech level of russian jets..
In the Singaporean contest, the Mig29 M and Su-35 were amongst the first eliminated from the competition (with F-15T, Rafale, Eurofighter, JAS-39, F-18E/F, Su-35, Mig-29M in competition). Once again, it speaks for itself of the quality of russian jets when they are in competition with western fighter jets.
I am sure SK/Singaporean would have look around there neigbourhood before eliminating Flankers. (china/Malaysia). the same is case with certain countries in middleast. only India is neutral place where rafale/hornet type aircraft has no place.
star49India wanted to buy Mig-29K, so they bought Mig-29k.
What’s so formidable ?
It is the future option of MIG-29K for IN ADS. there is no Rafale option.
The M88-3 set at 90Kn is under testing for a full year now.
But perhaps you have an information that I missed ?
but how long will it take to actually put into fighter. i dont see it for that 59 Rafale order. so only next decade is possible.
Source ?
By searching for on google, YOU’re the origin of half the web page with “Flanker 200 Kn” :diablo:
how can there be source for some thing 10 years in advance. how much poweful is MIG-MFI engines.
1) I supposed you’re talking about the mirage 2000-9
2 It’s “only avionics” ? It’s only the most complex part of a modern plane.
it is not complex than modernizing entire plan from engines to fbw to Mtow.
And the experience of russian planes and engines speak for itself.
correction. Soviet built and left over components.
Read the link, it’s written Mig-29K
even u go to MIG website. information is still outdated.
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/
Isn’t the Mig-29 SMT with that boost ?
And the Mig-29K isn’t extrapolated from it
MIG-29K is completely new thing for IN with more than 24 tons MTOW.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/MiG-29K.html
The internal fuel isn’t “as internal” as it seems, it’s on the dorsal spine so that the “new aerodynamics” might no be as goos as it sound.
it as even better than the MIG-29OVT. that aircraft lacks the -MK engine and advance materials.
What are you talking about ?
1) Only two fighters ? In your dreams, certainly.
2) It seems that in Korea, in fact, it was ranked first 😉
the fact that Korean chose slot array F-15 speak for itself tech level of Rafale.
star49Again, there have been engagements and results have come out, well stated, J-10 repeatedly whips flankers. Whether you think it is possible or not does not deny that it has happened. I don’t want this to turn into another J-10 vs flankers, so I’m just telling you that Chinese opinions toward flankers is not very high and Rafale would be much preferred.
again rumours and speculation. there is a reason F-22/F-15/MIG-31/Su-27 are for intereception. Large fighters impart greater speed and range to BVR missile. and it is the first shoot at greater distance is the advantage. and how Flankers is not high. china has the highest number of Flankers. just fuel and training pilots for them will cost alot of money.
yes, but they still do make claims anyways, that’s what salespeople do. Do you believe in everything that a salesperson tells you?
there is big difference between private claims and official claims. these officials cannot say things which they cannot fullfil.
yes, they believe that they will have the technology when they start delivering mig-35, but the Russian radar promises in the past have been pretty spotty to say the least. China has learnt its lessons with Zhuk-MSE (and that’s not a technology leap like AESA radar is). So what if BARS isn’t exported? Let me repeat. China does not fancy Russian airborne radars.
how is russia radar promise spotty?. compared to what? it took 7 years for F-16E/M2K9 contract to fullfill after signing. ur is just rumours and speculation.
how is that believing that they will have the technology for MIG-35.
Butowski, Piotr from MAKS 2005.
The Epaulet-A radar has been built almost exclusively from Russian components with use of Russian technology, which is one of the basic conditions required by Russian air forces for the equipment to be installed in the fifth-generation fighter. The Epaulet-A is an experimental radar used for developing AESA technology and it is composed of only 68 transmit-receive modules; the next radars may be equipped with aerials of any form and size. The price of a single module “will be reduced to an acceptable level, provided that the same technology is used also for other series radiolocation systems made for military and civil applications” say NIIP officials
what do you call this then?
” and China is bit conservative the IL-76 are powred by D-30 while civilian Volga airline and IAF ordered PS-90.”
I did not mention IL-76 at all before then.
so why it is negative point. u tried to turn into it.
So what? The point is that the news about M1 taking flight came as early as 2002 and then we waited until this month for it to be certified. And even now, has there been any in service flankers fitted with M1?
So, what’s to say there won’t be problem in the development path of M4?
where is the problem with M1? it was the change of design objectives thats why it took so long. so it be fitted to present ruaf flankers without modification and training of maintainance crew (complexity). now design path is freeze upto M5. only certification is left.
star49Too many arguments at once. I’m blind 😡
:rolleyes:
u dont have the answer.
Formidable ? Why ? What’s so special with it ?
Isnt it formidable that India second carrier option is agian MIG-29K in 2015 not Rafale.
http://www.royfc.com/news/sep/1405sep03.html
The Indian contract for the MiG-29K provides a powerful impulse to the development a line of ship-based aircraft at RSK MiG. In fact, the lightweight MiG-29K ship-based fighters being created once again belongs to the generation “4++” in degree of perfection. That is, it surpasses the Su-27K (Su-33), which flies today from the “Kuznetsov,” by “two plusses.” This gives the Mikoyan people hope that when it comes to the formation of Russia’s new naval aircraft carriers aviation group, the MiG-29K can be the most suitable.Barkovskiy thinks that a concrete offer to the fleet will be determined by the initial conditions. “It will depend on when the aircraft carrier is built,” he says. – “I think that in 2015, it will be the MiG-29K, but, most likely, in an advanced version.” And if the period shift, then it of course will be a question about a next generation aircraft.
So, a more than 170 kN thrust for the SU-33 ? Unless you’re talking of the AL-41, I don’t see what kind of engine you’re talking about.
Anyway, I was talking just about an improved version of the M-88, not a brand new engine that wasn’t made to be incorporated into the plane.
there is zero probability that M-883 will be certified in next 10 years. 200KN is understatement for Flankers in next 10 years.
just look at M2K9 project. how much time it took from sign to delivery and that is only avionics upgrade.
The rafale isn’t an engine 😉
the more u produce the better experiance.
LEt’s see
The mig-29K is a bit bigge than the rafale:
RAfale M range: 1800 km
Mig-29K: 1500 Km
http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/mig29.php
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
thats the figure of 20 year old MIG-29. IN MIG-29K has 50% internal fuel boost and further range boost with more fuel efficient engines and aerodynamics. u are looking at F-18E capability in much smaller package without expensive composites with better TWR.
You really don’t know much about that subject I fear.
During competition,the rafale has always been ranked among the finalist.
because there are only two fighters most of the time in competition. in more neutral settings. it isnt second.
Yes, obviously I’m right.
u r wrong.
star49so are you saying Mig-23 is more capable than F-16? Size isn’t the only factor. Again, J-10 vs flankers results are well known in China, just check it up.
first. Mig-23 and F-16 and does not belong to same generation and if u upgrade Mig-23 with AL-31 and decent radar there wont be much a difference in BVR fight. Flanker being a heavier platform will tend to give higher energy to BVR missile and hence greater speed and range to a BVR missile. the only thing is Su-30MK does not have the FBW system of MKI.
And if they are wrong, what is the outside world going to do?
It effects the reputation of every export product as Radar goes into almost every thing from SAMs to helis.
Let’s see them build a factory capable of producing the parts then. PLAAF does not fancy any Russian radar, check it up.
so do u think they dont have a factory for producing for MMIC. and make paper based claims of transferring AESA tech (which will include factory) to India for MIG-35.
there wasnt any report of BARs export to China which is the best radar for Flanker for now. the rest are more or less equal.
No, you mentionned IL-76 first, go back in the post and check it up.
i didnt start this.
hmm, I was pretty sure the news about FM1 was coming out in 2002.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2003/12/02/174568/NPO+Saturn+submits+new+fighter+engine+for+tests.html
I don’t see how 2006-2002 is 3?
First flight was done in 2002. but have u follow the news after that?. they have to make changes to it so it can fit into ruaf flanker without any modification.
the first MI has 13,300kg thrust with 500 MTBO but now it is 1000hr and 13,500kg. and any way export customer has to evaluate the engine for 1 to 2 years before they sign for it. so alteast those parameters are achieved around 2004. for any export contract in 2005.
3rd quarter of 2002 and second quarter of 2003 is less than a year unless original objectives change.
http://www.royfc.com/news/sep/1802sep06.html
“At an altitude of 11,000 meters, while speeding up the fighter from 300 to 1,200 km/hour (supersonic speed), we gain 26 seconds in comparison with an airplane equipped with the standard AL-31F engines. For a fighter interceptor, this is a very important characteristic, which allows winning in aerial combat,” the Salyut general director declared.He explained that right now further tests of these engines are on-going and Salyut “is ready to perform all of the remaining work at such a rate in order to complete it in the second quarter of 2003.”
Source: 18.09.02, Interfax-AVN
star49where did I mention oil price or anything. Go to any Chinese forum. Almost everyone knows about the results of J-10 vs flankers.
two non-stealth fighters with one bigger and one smaller how can smaller one more capable than the larger one.? the only thing against larger fighter is cost of training and maintaining.
Again, people can make a whole bunch of claims. That’s what the salespeople do.
alteast they are making claims to outside world to verify.
If you don’t have the technological base to mass produce the T/R modules, it’s kind of hard to mass produce AESA radars.
from where this information comes from? It is not about technological base it is about money and market. they have enough skills to build everything including smart chips.most important part Software development for radar.
http://www.sitronics.com/eng/about/directs/microel/
The Company’s microchip design and production is a full-cycle process, from R&D to commercial market.
Mikron – manufactured integrated circuits are utilized in extremely complex control systems for defense and space equipment. Around 50% of products are exported to the South-East Asia, Europe and America.
well, let’s see if they can fill now, but China is pretty pissed. Going back to the original, what did your original stuff on IL-76 have anyhting to do with su-33?
u brought IL-76 to show inability of building it. which country can deliver export product with in a year or so.
yes, and FM4 is not certified. Should I believe every claim that the Russians make about when their stuff is certified. You might want to check back on when they claimed FM1 would be certified.
I have checked back. Salyut was not a full fledge design bureau and they started the whole thing on there own and did it successfully within 3 years.
star49read some of my past posts on flankers vs J-10s. I’d rather not waste my time with that again. Flankers are definitely not looked as highly as the eurocanards in China. Whether you choose to believe it or not is a different story.
and from where this information coming from. the high oil prices from 2004 have nothing to do with large twin engine fighters.sells. the AL-31F-M1 going to Ruaf has 30% cost savings.
and I should believe in some product that has only shown as a mini-prototype?
that was NIIP product. they claim there PESA is as good as Ist generation AESA. they are going into 2nd generation AESA straight. and news i posted is for NIIR.
The radar, developed by the Fazotron-NIIR for the fifth-generation aircraft, is far more advanced than other technical solutions,” Korzhuyev said.
Let’s see them show the capability of mass producing T/R modules.
what is meant by that. first there should be order for production.
who cares about SVU? Why are you bringing systems that have nothing to do with su-33? Do you just proof your points by posting a billion Russian articles quoting the export companies?
it is a radar. Fighter radars AESA is the last thing to manufacture for most countries.
again, I have no idea what this has to do with su-33?
u brought this that they cant built IL-76. it was triparty agreement where one party cant fullfill.
wow, you finally get it. FM4 is not certified. FM1 is just certified. You see, PLAN is not going to equip its fighters with engines that are not certified.
the timeline i posted is certification time line not some development time line. only AL-41 from saturn needs development.
star49no, it’s China that has no choice, so it’s getting su-33. If Rafale is available, China would take it over su-33 in a heart beat. Flankers are regarded as less capable than J-10 within China and J-10 is regarded as less capable than Rafale.
from where it comes from that Su-30MK is less capable than J-10?. may be some avionics. capability is directly proportional to range, payload, radar size, weopon station strenght etc.
there is certain country in africa where France has pushed hard its rafale but there is favourite is Flanker. and i am not even discussing something exotic like Su-35BM.
China claimed KJ-2000 is the most advanced AWACS in the world, are you going to believe that? There is a difference between the capability of building a few and having the plants to producing T/R modules cheaply for mass production.
unless it is offered for export and some independent party verify it. no one believes in such claims. Russia aesa is for export starting with MIG-35 and Ground based Nebo SVU as shown to argentinian.
Bench Tests of First Aircraft Radar with Active Phased Array Antenna Start in 2004
The Fazotron-NIIR Corporation plans to start bench tests in 2004 of the first aircraft radar with an active phased array antenna (BRLS with AFAR), the general director and general designer of the corporation, Anatoliy Kanashchenkov, reported to Interfax-AVN on Thursday ((8 May 2003)).
“As early as the second quarter 2003, the first of several elements for the active phased array antenna should be manufactured,” A. Kanashchenkov said.
According to him, new principles based on solid-state technology are being used in the BRLS with AFAR being developed by the corporation.“As of today, we already have prospective power amplifier and approximately half the solid-state integrated analogue circuits,” said A. Kanashchenkov.
“As early as after the manufacture and tests of the first 5 – 10 BRLS with AFAR the technology of their assembly will be improved and the cost lowered significantly,” A. Kanashchenkov said.
Source: 08.05.03, Interfax-AVN
I don’t see how this has anything to do with this discussion. And you may have noticed that the Russians are having a hard time producing these IL-76s.
cheaper version can only be produced in low wage country like Uzbekistan to make some profit out of it.the other plants are busy with high margin products.
Russians can make claims about when their engines going to come out as much as they want, but as long as it is not out, it’s not out. Do you want to bet with me that AL-31F-M4 is going on Su-33 of PLAN? You know what’s claimed on Chinese forums? They’ve managed to achieve T/W ratio of 9 with upgraded versions of Taihong (around 16KG of thrust). But it’s not certified, so it’s not ready to equip any fighters.
AL-31F-M4 will not be on Su-33 not because it want be ready. there is big difference by just producing thrust and actual certification. they have already produced thrust a decade ago with AL-41 they are only in certification stage. and there is another engine 117S from Saturn that is going into Su-35 from next year.
star49Where do you get these ideas from?
No export customer is going to chose Rafale/F-18E even for air force let alone for an aircraft carrier. these navies dont have choice they have to live with these limited aircraft.
says who? How long have been hearing about FM-1 and it is still not on any aircraft yet. PLAN will be lucky if the su-33s have FM-1. Zhuk-A? let’s see when the Russians will have the capacity to produce the T/R modules for production of AESA radars.
so they are claiming most advance AESA without actually building it?
u are not following the news thats why u have no clue.
and China is bit conservative the IL-76 are powred by D-30 while civilian Volga airline and IAF ordered PS-90.
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_jul4.html#24jul
As the head of Salyut, Yuriy Eleseev, said, the Su-30MK2 airplanes which completed the flight to Venezuela, were equipped with upgraded AL-31F-M1 engines. During the flight they made two stops for refueling. No problems arose during the flight.”
Source: 24.07.06, ARMS-TASS
this is AL-31F-M2
Work on a 14-tonne version will be completed approximately at the start of 2007. Not further translated.))
Source: 24.07.06, ARMS-TASS
this one corresponds to AL-31F-M5
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_jul4.html#24jul
As MMPP Salyut manager Yuriy Eliseev reported to the vice premier, “it is realistic to create the fifth generation engine by 2009 – 2010.” We may fall somewhat behind on some materials, but were area not experiencing any doubts in the design constituent,” he emphasized.
Source: 24.07.06, ARMS-TASS
star49Some degree ?? It shows that the EF typhoon in addition to an AWACS couldnt spot the Su-35
they did spot on by showing that communication to EF.
, didnt do a single divet of a manuver and kept flying straight and didnt even bother to manuver when a a2a missile was comming screaming at it
they did have to go straight into Flanker as there missiles are likely to be short range. so in order to get a decent chance to hit they have to get close
. Now is the BM invisible ? Is the R-77 not detectable by RWR ? Is the EF typhoon incapable of pulling of any sort of pitch or yaw performance ? Does the FCS shut down when a missile is fired at it ?? It is nothing more then LOONEY TOON !!
it isnt clear what kind of missiles. but seeing that AWACS was hit before EF. so it most like they were advertizing KS-172/R-37 class missile. seeing EF carries 3 fuel tanks to have the same range as Su-35BM. first EF has to get rid of those tanks to get any decent maneourability. if they get rid of tanks they will be short of fuel for any evasive maneurs and or just to disengage. it is all about having long range missiles, longer legs on internal fuel and the bigger radar avionics and jamming throught out the body. as shown by the bigger wings lightup of Su-35
star49http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_oct4.html#25oct
HAL and Rosoboronehksport Sign Contract for Delivery of Engines for MiG-29
http://www.kommersant.com/p716532/Engine_India_missile/
Indian Missiles to Take Off on Russia’s Engines
Russia has made a $100-million contract to deliver to India 200 small engines for unmanned aircraft of NPO Saturn make and intends to pass the production license in the next move. The only hurdle is the possible violation of missile technology nonproliferation.
NPO Saturn has secured an order to make in 2007 around 200 small engines of TRDD-50MT type (up to 500kg engine thrust) for unmanned aircraft, said Vasily Danilov, sales director at NPO Saturn. The sources said the deal budget was around $100 million and the engines would be installed on Indian Lakshya aircraft.In NPO Saturn, they emphasized that the contract specifies no technology transfer so far, but it may happen in future. “Our partners have mentioned the possibility of the contract’s next stage that would provide for producing engines in India,” Danilov said. The value of the license contract could be $250 million to $300 million, according to a source with one of defense enterprises.
It may happen though that the production license for TRDD-50MT won’t reach India, said representatives of Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation. Delhi appears to be willing to design a mid-range cruise missile based on Lakshya, and this action falls under the missile technology nonproliferation
star49I’m sure you think that the 2006 harpoon/Exocet are the same than those used during the 80’s, am I right ?
offcourse they will have updated electronics. but they dont have the range, speed, and warhead to sink a carrier (400KG with Club). i will not put even in Uran league.
I’m lost. Do you want to compare Mig-29K with Super Hornet and RAfale ?
MIG-29K is very formidable plane even without expensive materials used in its construction or phased array radar.
If you want 20% more powerful engine on a RAfale, just ask.
Underpowered ? Is it another word for “reliable engine” ? No doubt the Su-33 has very powerful ones.
If u want 40% more powerful engine in Su-33, just ask. this is the only reason preventing powrful engines for Flanker.
The military demanded from the start that the engine be more powerful and fuel-efficient than the preceding versions, but not more sophisticated, so that there would be no additional maintenance problems
reliable? how many rafale has actually been built and flight hrs per year.
About the range, for it’s size, the rafale isn’t ridiculous at all.
Rafale range is ridiculous for its size. considering how much expensive it is due to materials. and short range weopons for air to air and anti-ship. the same amount of money u spent on MIG-29K. and it will be Gold Standard with supercruise engines and vastly improved range.
Yes, it flew in 1986 but it’s only in 2006 that Dassault has noticed that they can’t put a decent radar into the nose.
France isnt going to start a war on its own even with 4th graded airforce or naval power so it is perfectly content with rafale capabilities.
Mroe seriously, the fact that such pathetic argument must be used to lowered its qualities is a tribute to the skills of Dassault engineers.
failure of rafale export has clearly proven beyond doubt. If there was anything of substance for price. it would have been chosen by traditional Mirage users like UAE/India/Greek etc.
star49in terms of weapon package, it will NOT exceed that of super hornet or Rafale by any stretch of imagination. Neither China nor Russia has the kind of multirole radar that the super hornet has and the kind of strike capability and different types of land/sea strike weapons that is available for the super hornet and Rafale. Also being used on a STOBAR carrier simply does not allow flankers to be able to carry as much payload as something launched from a CATOBAR carrier.
so what is in Rafale/F-18E weopons are u talking about ?that pathetic harpoon/Exocet combo. satellite guided bombs are certified on Su-34. and any way u are not going to use those against real airforces. u need long range Anti-ship and air to air weopons.
these aircraft are even less capable than MIG-29K. both are underpowered and needs fuel tanks for any decent mission. Rafale has very smallish nose.
FM1 has just become available and you are talking about 4 already? Air launched Club, double 275 km? There is this thing called the MTCR that limits it to 300 km. If China waits that long for zhuk-A, FM4 and air launched club to come out, its own naval fighter would be available by then.
FM-1 is certified and the other 3 are going to be certified in less than 3 years. and Zhuk-A is developed system. it will just need flight test on particular aircraft. just like APG-80E and F-16E.
star49it also depends on what kind of su-33 gets offered (ie: what kind of engine and radar and avionics it gets). If the Russians let China put its own radar on su-33 and use a combination of Russian/Chinese missiles, I think China would be a lot more willing to make the larger purchase.
It depends on time line and money.
If the contract is like IN MIG-29K contract (when the whole aircraft from engines to structure is entirely new). than China could have the best Naval fighter in the world in terms of weopons, aerodynamaics, range, speed, payload, radar etc. which can act as Fast AWACS for ships. even one aircraft carrier with 40 or so figher for solving situational awarness and fleet defence.
think about aircraft powered by AL-31FM-4 armed with airlaunched Clubs (ship launch is now 275KM. for airlaunch simple double its range).
I think Irbis Pesa/Zhuk-A should be good canidates for it to act like an information plat form.
Fazotron-NIIR developing radar for fifth-generation fighter
MOSCOW. Oct 23 (Interfax-AVN) – The Fazotron-NIIR Corporation develops the Zhuk-MAE active phased array radar for the fifth-generation fighter, Fazotron-NIIR Director General Mikhail Korzhuyev told Interfax-AVN on Monday.
“The radar, developed by the Fazotron-NIIR for the fifth-generation aircraft, is the most advanced existing system as compared with its rivals,” Korzhuyev said.
He noted that the Zhuk-MAE active phased array radar was to become the basis for the weapons control system of the multi-role fifth-generation fighter, expected to be fielded with the Russian Air Force and exported.
star49the JF-17 is a pitch unstable aircraft only. thats what has been claimed from the start. post some neutral link to back up your claim Crobato.
Start and End of FC-1 are not the same. there is i think three set of specification for the aircraft now. the original (14m length), the updated one on CAC site (14.95m length). and the specification of newer prototypes that are not published.
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