star49MIG-21 is not front line aircraft of IAF no matter how much upgrade they put on it nor is phantom. it will be like putting advance avionics in F-111 to make it BVR capable.
I have doubt about F-15E range on internal fuel. it will be less than F-35 or F-15C. Su-34 is logical choice. $10B will get them a license and putting own avionics.
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_jun4.html#29jun
The Su-34’s main achievement is considered to be its ability to find, classify and destroy any, including submarine, targets in range up to 2,000 kilometers without refueling
star49“Harry” who I consider to be one of the most educated source on the Su-30MKI puts it at 50-55 million for the Su-30MKI flyaway which would make it only about 1/2 the price of the raptors Flyaway so in a war of attrition the raptor ‘s cost would be 2:1 in favour of the Su-30MKI.
India hasnt built Su-30 by itself so how come $50 to $55m fly away price comes from?. that Indian government report mentions $8b total cost for 140 aircraft. that comes to $57m but no where it is mentioned that it is fly away cost. and the same report mention that Flanker can bought at half price of this total cost from Russia. so it is around $30m a piece. Again this has nothing to do with domestic price fro Ruaf. i have read $36m for Su-34 which they consider alot more expensive than any other flanker. they put total cost of developement for 5th generation around $3 to $4b for themselves and if foreign partner joins. simply cost will double. because they even want to make money out of r&d.
Again you are comparing what is expected and might happed to what allready exists and are giving them equal weightage, We have been hearing timeframes about the PAKFA and what not for years now so I wont believe that it exists until it flies or atleast we see one being assembled. Excuse me If you think I am rude but I’ve been hearing about this for years and I see reports in Russian press and some in Western press but nothing is concrete so Deal with what exists today.
i havent seen any time frame of PAK-FA induction. only agreement was signed with Sukhoi in 2002 for 5th generation fighter. but seeing other projects like Topol-M/Borei/S-400 it is reasonable to assume that PAK-FA will be in class of its own otherwise they wouldnt be wasting time and money on it.
With airframes , engines yes I’d agree but what about avionics , weapons systems etc etc the MKI has a lot of systems that are non-russian did the russians planned for those on the Su-37??
Avionics and Weopons? Software is russian, radar is russian, all the weopons are russian. Su-30MKA has 95% commanality with MKI except for French language displays.
star49Emm sounds good in theory , But Guiding a singe R-37 from a Su-30 is one thing and guiding a bunch of LRAAM fired from an Aircraft and Guided by AWACS is another. I have my reservations on it .
Here is the Official Info on A-50E
Even MIG-31 can do that. how can information from website become official. it is intended for export. I doubt it has anything to do with in service stuff of Ruaf.
The film continued: “At the start of the 1980s the aviation of the air defence troops received the fourth-generation fighters, MiG-31 and Su-27. The unique MiG-31 interceptor can itself guide a flight of Su-27s to a target and even control the launch of missiles from these airplanes.”
Channel One TV, Moscow, in Russian 2056 gmt 5 Apr 06
star49Rapping the Government for huge cost esclation risks in the project, the CAG said the total cost of 140 aircraft projected by the Ministry in 2000 was Rs 22,122.78 crores at the 2000 price level, while a detailed project report prepared by HAL in july 2005, the amount shown was Rs 39,224.9 crores, almost a hundred price rise
I dont think cost has escalated in real sense. the price is now around $8b. but this will include $3.3B for licensing and add to that factory and infrastructure cost of 140 aircraft. so the actual cost of aircraft is still $40m for 140 aircraft. offcourse if u buy this offshelf it is cheaper. and 5 years inflation/depreciation also plays big part in this.
star49the speed of Club/Brahmos/Moskit are for ship/sub launched versions. Air launch version will be lighter, faster and longer range. India already has the smaller anti-ship missiles. Brahmos will introduce new level of capability.
just compare the range of ground launced MICA with air to air versions. the difference is 3 times.
star49Ok so if someone buys a J-7 instead of a J-10, that would, by your logic, make the J-7 superior. Which is faulty logic. You’re not taking into account other factors. Such as:
I think u didnot read. i posted data of 50s era but upgraded radar not some 3D solid state phased array radar. so it is still J-7
1. They may be looking at a Chinese SAM. Easier to integrate it with a Chinese radar.
what has this radar anything to do with SAM.
2. The Russian radars they looked at were too expensive after they bought the FLANKERs.
this quite assumption that russian weopons are expensive than Chinese. look at Sudan and Burma MIG-29. those should be ideal customer for chinese.
3. Advertising is one thing, combat performance is another.
ofcourse when a thing is made to handle 10 and u send 1000 over it. it will not work as advertized.
Anyway, you still didn’t answer my question. How is this EW radar going to shoot down anything, much less a Tomahawk?
how is anything flying below mach 1 and is low altitude and is detectable is shot down any way.
star49No strategic airlift? What’s that got to do with defending yourself? That’s useful if you want to project power around the world. And in any case, in an emergency W. European countries can order civilian airliners into military service, & we have a lot – really, a hell of a lot – of civilian airlift. No strategic bombers? Relevant how? No long range missiles? Well, none with conventional warheads at the moment (unless you count British Tomahawks), but there are some W. European SLBMs. Oh, you hadn’t noticed? No long-range SAMs? Depends on what you call long range. Nothing to match Russian ones, but neither does anyone else. And in W. European airspace, 400km range SAMs just aren’t usable. This isn’t Siberia. No operational spy satellite system? You really don’t keep up, do you? That’s just plain wrong.
u are far out of touch with reality.
As for your fantasies about Russia controlling all the worlds commodities, & Tupolev & Sukhoi displacing Airbus – I suggest you need to ask your doctor to adjust the dosage, next time he visits your ward.
didnt largest EU steel maker sold 40% of stake to private russian businessman just to keep the jobs which will either wise be lost to capitalism.
EADS fate will be no different. just look at changing market condition. even China demand separate assembly lines.
One economic system is creating hundreds of billions of budget surplus to the other one is creating mounain of debt of every year. In 10 years the end result will be obvious. and this does not even taking into account new pipelines, buiying foreign deposits and creating exchange markets.
star49So how is a long-range EW radar, which may or may not actually be able to track a Tomahawk at long range as it’s flying extremely low, going to shoot down a cruise missile?
it is long range radar advertisement. it is logical to assume that Chinese sytem will be superior to this one as it is chosen. and shooting down anything flying below mach 1 should not be a problem once it is tracked.
http://www.rusarm.ru/p_frame/main.htm
A large antenna aperture combined with high power potential provides superior long-range detection performance against any class of air targets, especially small targets such as air-launched cruise missiles and those manufactured according to STEALTH technology.
star49And your basis for believing that is…?
What ground-based air defenses are situated in Argentina or Venezuela that can acquire and down a Tomahawk anyway?
do u think 21st century radar system cannot acquire a crusie missile. they wouldnt be buying it.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45645
Venezuela’s defense minister has signed a deal to buy Chinese radar systems, the latest in a series of military purchases by the government of President Hugo Chavez.The Chinese-made long range surveillance radars will be used by Venezuela’s air force, defense officials said yesterday
Defense Minister Adm. Ramon Orlando Maniglia and Qu Huimin, the vice president of China’s Electronics Import and Export, signed the accord last week.
The deal also includes the purchase of “other air security equipment” such as radios, and the possibility of renting a satellite communications system, the Defense Ministry said in a statement. The cost of the deal was not disclosed. Venezuela has stepped up purchases of military equipment this year, agreeing to buy Russian rifles and military helicopters
star49Yeah Iraq showed us how easy that is. :rolleyes:
and how many thousands did u fired. and also there was complete air superiority in technology and numbers. In Falkland case there is no such case. a few flankers in combat air patrol will shoot it down and the rest will be taken by ground air defences.
star49You’ve not heard of SSNs with Tomahawk? Zap ’em on the ground. 😀
how many thousands tomhawk do u have? a few slow moving tomhawk can easily shot down with ground defences.
Two dozen Su-30, with no AEW or other backup? Hmm. I don’t see them being a big deal for the AdlA or the RAF. After all, the AdlA has local bases to operate from, & although the RAF doesn’t have anything very close (Belize is the nearest I’m sure of), there are nice friendly Commonwealth islands with long runways all over the Caribbean, & Guyana. By the time those Su-30 are operational, how many Typhoons do you think we’ll have up & running? And I think the EW backup the AdlA could provide would be plenty to make up for any deficiencies in radar range its fighters have vs Su-30. No problem, mate. Easy-peasy.
why u need AEW to begin with in this context? AEW will just alert the other side ground based radars and If Flanker gets R-37M or KS air to air weopons. ur entire resource will be spent on defending that AEW. Flanker can still get Anti-ship shots at the ships due to long range of weopons and its long range of itself. 1 ton KH-59Mk can go 300KM. 2 ton Club should go more than double its range as sub lauch is more than 200KM. than there is newer KH-31.even older version RMAF found better than harpoon. six can be shot at one ship with high speed.
u cannot defend Falkland with EU Navy. U need US do this job. and it should not take more than 1 year to get all Flanker built and operational assuming pilots are trained on other flankers.
star49AL-31FM-1 and AL-41F1A are certainly not the same thrust. The former is 130kN, the latter is 142-145kN range.
u are comparing present operational engine with future experimental engine. compare AL-31FM-2/FM-3 thrust which are entering test stages now and will be operational earlier.
star49Keeping the customers involved in the process, deliver news and optimistic progress reports, that’s what I mean … (while they are good with the very optimistic reports).
keeping customers involved and optimistic reports with A-380. what it has achieved. rather than create a white elephant. no hope to recover the investment which is even more difficult now. Ruaf the main customer of PAK-FA is certainly involved and the customer is giving optimistic reports.
The EF and F-22 may be 20 years old since program start, but they still reflect the benchmark of modern aircraft. A Eurofighter is probalby the best thing to get (in its weight class) when not looking for stealth, the F-22 the best fighter of all (with the corresponding price tag). These aircraft were started in development and needed high costs to get to service aircraftstage. Russia hasn’t even reached the technology level of the F-16 until 1990, since then investments were low. So the general assumption that things in Russia are less expensive is wrong. Even if it costs less in USD, it still costs a lot if compared to local income.
and what fighter aircraft was more advanced than F-16 in West in 1990? it was full digital FBW aircraft. but F-16 started with analogue FBW and 23,000lbs engine and no BVR capability. Flanker engine and bvr surpass this in mid eighties with 27,500lbs engine. development costs are very low as most are state designe bureaus and factories and no pressure to produce extraordinary profit. just enough to self manage to a certain level.
EF and F-22 are certainly not the best bang for the money. u are comparing export prices of flankers with domestic prices of these fighters.
Ridicuolus. Take the time and count people, gross product and military budgets in EU-Europe. The time Russia was able to compete with the western Europe countries are counted, that was over even before 1991. Today “Western” Europe reaches to Russia’s borders with a gross product bigger than that of the USA. Some time is needed for the leading class in Russia to really understand the situation, but afterwards (maybe 10+ years) they will see that competition nowadays doesn’t take place in military equipment any more.
“Western Europe” reaches russia border but it needs US bases and protection. EU cannot defend itself without US. infact it is completely depended on US not only against Russia but other powers.
EU has no strategic airlift capability. No strategic bombers, no longrange missiles. no operational spy satellite system. no long range SAMs.
In 10 years not only oil and gas but all the commodities will be controlled by russia along with transport routes and they will squeeze every one else just like they did to ukriane. while RRJ/Tupolev will take care of A-320/A-350.
star49What makes me disbelief this message is that nothing was shown in the media. I mean, Cold War is over and Russia builds this aircraft for the export market as well as its own market. Of cause, I don’t expect them to share military secrets, but more food for the media. Either they still can’t figure out modern marketing or they don’t have anything to show.
modern marketing? like A-380. slight mistake in program and ur shares are dumped.
Additionally, I would wonder in which state the “prototype” is (if t flies in the near future). We have seen about 4 to 7 years between first flight and EIS. Both the F-22 and the Eurofighter had early test aircraft. The time needed to develop such an aircraft is very long. With Russia in good financial condition only since two or three years now, we cannot expect that so much was done until now.
The manufacturers may have invested some on their own, but always regard the numbers: they can’t spend billions on a program just on their own. I still don’t see any 5th generation thing coming out of Russia. Especially I don’t see the promise of a good business case, or to put it this way, I see the promise of a much better one.
F-22/EF story is 20 years old now. techniques are advanced now. business case is there. they have to replace about 1200 MIG-31/MIG-29/Su-27 with 400 or so PAK-FA. so less fuel, less pilots, less maintainance and more capability. and devlopment costs will not be that much like EF.
and also to ensure complete dominance over EU. as only F-22 can challenge this fighter and there arent that many F-22s around to park every where on neighborhood from Euorpe to central asia, middleast and north pacific.
star49Then Brits will have to find a way how to deploy Typhoons in the area. 😉 That’s not gonna happen, anyway..
Su-35 is advertized with 5 KH-59MK with 300 Km range. or 3 club or Yakhont (range can easily exceed 300KM). at some point Su-30 will have same capability.
i dont think Royal Navy or EU power can handle this thing by itself without US help.
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