star49dude, musharraf is in China and given quite a royal tour as you can imagine of CAC. The cockpit on JF-17 is probably by far the most digital he had ever seen. What is he suppose to say? JF-17 probably elevated from a barely 4th generation plane to a legitimate 4th generation plane with the recent changes. But that’s all it is. It is much cheaper than F-16. That’s a fact. China is selling this thing for 15 million each. Don’t give it too much undeserved expectations.
that whole assumption is wrong. what do u think about recent orders of AIM-9M and harpoons. how it is financed. or that whole pilot training or spares. it will take minimum of 10 years before JF-17 reaches the operational level of F-16. and if u do same the same with JF-17 the cost will be much more than F-16. there are other operators of F-16 like Turkish where pilots go for training. the whole infrastructure around the world of F-16 makes it cheaper plane. but that does not mean it will always be advanced.
star49I wouldn’t pay too much attention to his use of such words here. They were for general media consumption from an army man. Remember ACM sadaat’s interview in AFM couple of years back. By then, PAF had already settled for chinese avionics for first 50 JF-17, and yet ACM and others referred to it as med tech. In addition, its more than likely that sooner or later, Pak/US would announce the deal for F-16s (used and new ones). If JF-17’s performace was really as good as F-16 blk 52/52’s operational envelope, then PAF would be extremely stupid to be pushing of these aircrafts instead of much cheaper, home grown, sanction proof JF-17. Hope, u get the point.
how is JF-17 cheaper than F-16? think a alittle harder u will get the point. and even F-16 is signed the same PAF will be saying looking for another high tech aircraft. it does not make a difference. and i havent seen any recent statement of medium tech from PAF.
star49we’re talking about a different aircraft.
it does not matter. an aircraft has to be multifunction in all aspects like good both in close in combat and bvr at all altitudes along with rapid response time from the start.
only Gripen meets this criteria and now FC-1.
star49or it could be that Pakistan is penny pinching on its purchases.. the country has alot of R&D, brilliant engineers, and such.. but they don’t exactly have the freedom to purchase whatever they want.. if they did they would’ve bought M2Ks instead of buying F-7s and upgrading their MIII fleets. The Chinese avionics aren’t necessarily bad, but it is assumed to be much cheaper than their western equivelent.
that logic does not apply here. both F-7 and Mirage III uses slot array Grifos and it would be cheaper and faster to go with Grifo as all weopons are integrated on this radar .
star49To star49, musharraf simply said that 04 is better than anything in PAF’s inventory currently. You said that FC-1 is equal to block 50 according to what Musharraf said and I’m telling you that you are misinterpreting him.
i have not only watched his interview but communication minister also. (they have also briefed him on new AWACS). he didnot quantify how much superior tech.
he was saying it is high tech aircraft (that high tech word was reserved for Western aircraft like blk 52 and J-10 in PAF) thats why they associate medium tech with FC-1. so something has changed.
star49I think he was just being polite. He was simply saying that FC-1 is better than the block 15OCU that PAF has, which is not that surprising, since the block 15s don’t even have BVR capability.
Platform and avionics are totally separate issue. F-16A is as agilie as F-16E. thats not the point. It is the transformation of FC-1 from medium tech to high tech aircraft through Chinese avionic systems. It is the tech that is the point not the design. and PAF had long time belief that high tech aircrafts only exist in West. so why they are now calling a medium tech aircraft as high tech.
and every country has something better under the sleeves before the export some thing new.
star49it is so obvious. FC-1 is 3rd generation airframe with 4th generation avionic the other is 4th generation airframe.
He described the joint production of JF-17 Thunder as a great success. The president, who visited the Chendgu Aircraft Industrial Corporation in southwestern Sichuan Province where the aircraft is being manufactured, said the JF 17 fighter plane is high-tech and could be compared favourably with current F-16s in terms of its platform engine, manoeuvreability avionics and capability of carrying various modern weapon systems.
The president said the Chinese government also showed their hi-tech F-10 that is comparable with any modern aircraft. “We are very favourably disposed towards this aircraft,” he added
Text of report by Pakistan’s PTV World television on 23 February
The president, Gen Pervez Musharraf, has hoped that joint production of JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft will prove a major leap forward to enhance defence cooperation between Pakistan and China. The president stated this while inspecting the prototypes of JF-17 aircraft being jointly produced by the two countries in Chengdu. Our correspondent Ahmed Quraishi reports:
[Quraishi – recording] The government of China opened today some of the most sensitive and restricted defence sites for President Musharraf, taking him inside the hub of its military avionics industry. President Musharraf visited the Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute here in the Sichuan Province in the city of Chengdu. Now, this province is the hub of the Chinese military avionics industry and this institute that the president visited is the place where the JF-17 design was first conceived and where the researchers are working on improving this fighter aircraft which is being jointly produced by Pakistan and China.
Now, the president was given a briefing by the designers of the JF-17. Now, this briefing was restricted for the media but we are told by Pakistani diplomats that the Pakistani president was told by his Chinese hosts that this plane is a 3d generation fighter craft with 4th generation avionics. A very advanced fighter aircraft that we will see being inducted later this year and coming into service in both Pakistan and China.
Later on, the president went to see, to visit, the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation that is the assembly or the factory where the aircraft is assembled and manufactured. The president inspected the plane and he actually sat inside the cockpit of one of the jets and took photographs and also signed a visitors’ book, basically saying that Pakistan was very proud of its defence relationship with China and that the development of this aircraft is a major leap forward for the cooperation between the air forces of both the countries.
star49..thats a bit too early to say ..premature. :rolleyes:
nope. I perfactly translate words from one language to another and its intended meaning. Mush was differentiating between platforms and avionics.
when Grifo-S7 was radar for FC-1 with western avionic it was called medium tech aircraft now it has become high tech aircraft with Chinese systems. so that myth has already been shattered of West vs East.
offcourse there will be much better systems in the west but Current EF and advance Block 52 are equiped with Slot array radars and no fibre optics. no 3D TVC engine. and EF has already maximized its use of composites.
these all are legacy fighters. no point even considering them for the amount of money. now that is not the case of PAF.
star49You can see the calibre of interview from this question or they were assuming free licenses. any way it does not prove that IAF has bought 350 engines for 50 or so Flanker nor there is high thrust engine on order or any production start. so it is useless piece of information.
Is Saturn paid for the sale of the license for the AL-31FP engine?
Yes, Saturn is getting money under the con*tract. We are transferring all the technical documents to the Indians, and the Ufa plant under the same contract is responsible for pre*paring production, equipment and several tech*nological processes
star49Though it’s not true that PAF wants to use J-10 as a “bargaining chip”, even if one assumes so, that says a lot about the calibre of J-10. After all, not many aircrafts can be used as bargaining chips for such a *magnificent* aircraft, as F-16.
there arent many good single engine fighters with similar price tag available now. Gripen is short on range and payload . M2K is expensive. the only thing come close in price and capability is Su-30MK. and u cannot use Fighter aircrafts as bargaining chip with US unless the order is very huge. F-16 for PAF depends on other factors. from Mush long interview in the news. I will rate J-10 in EF class and FC-1 with advanced block 52 in terms of tech and agility. it seems china had some avionic break through.
he was saying these are comparable with any modern aircraft of the world available.
star49Simply because Aircraft gives you more flexibility and one can keep on updating on Intel and targetting data , Also different targets and targets at multiple location can be bombed with pin point accuracy. Ofcourse if you change your mind you can call them back.
missiles also give flexibility. if u have updated data than simply fire new missiles on more multiple sites. there is no point of slow moving. B-2 is now $2b a piece and too costly to maintain. not worth the investment.
It should be quite unnerving for any one even if he has a faint idea that there is a B-2 around ( for conventional warfare ) with can strike their system with impunity.
most standoff weopons give u ability to strike with impunity. simply fire more.
And lastly ICBM launches can be detected in seconds which gives you more time to react and counter retaliate
how much time to react in real sense. may be a few minutes at most. and if fire from submarines much less than that.
For B-2 suprise is an important factor if you are planning a preemptive N-strike or may be conventional , I see no reason why the US cant keep that a secret if it wishes too.
The Rest of the job will be done by the Billion Dollar Machine
well if u have nice satellite system u can track it from airbase.
[quote]
Well US has been testing some deep penetrating Bunker Busting Bombs , I am sure you are aware of that , add a N-warhed instead of a conventional one and the Atom shall do the rest.[quote]
bunker busting does not mean that it can penetrate mountain caves. even third world countries are storing inside mountains. where was Pak nuclear test.
it will be no different for large countries. even Chinese have airbases.
Well If they managed to hide 50 odd F-117 flying at Night for nearly 7 years from the rest of the world it gives you a good idea of what they can do if they wish to.
survelliance capabilities were not that good 25 years ago. but they are now much better. russia gps equivalent only came in mid nighties but only in less advanced form. now glosnoss-k will certainly make a difference.
[quote]
Firstly Iranians are no where close toward building a Nuke , but could do so if not checked now, Secondly Militarily Iran is not a major problem for US and Gang.
Tor or S-300 wont deter them , not atleast with B-2 with them , But the after effects after the strike is a cause of worry , As it is the Iraq experience is not a happy one to put it mildly.Any strike on Iran would lead to more terrorist attack and all the dirty fallout.
But I think in the end Iran will accept the Russian proposal , They know thats their last option.[quote]
i dont think Iran will compromise. just draggin the issue. they know they can send the world into deep depression by hitting oil infrastructure. and Russia will enjoy those fruits of high Oil and gas prices. and much more weopons sales.
Wasnt that their primary objective during Cold war.
Well I agree on the US law makers and their global police man role and attitude.
Well as an Indian I will feel more safer with B-2 under Musharaf Control 😀
To conclude I would say B-2 is a wonder weapon in the hands of US law maker , Just as Topol-M is a wonder weapon in the hands of Russia both are unstopable in their own way . How they choose to use it or not to use it will decide events in the future.
i think the price of B-2 is too high for the capability it offers. upgrading older bombers is much cheaper with electronic warfare that can jam most of third world air defence network. and the rest u can do with quantity.
star49i think thats why it is called ramjet.
The original silo-based Topol-M (SS-X-27) was commissioned for use in December 1997 — two underground systems were deployed at Tatishchevo military base, Saratov region (central Russia). Since then, five Strategic Missile Force regiments have been rearmed with the Topol-Ms.
The road mobile launcher was successfully tested in 2004-2005 and commissioned for use with the Strategic Missile Force this year. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said seven road mobile missile systems would enter service in 2006.
A road mobile launcher ensures concealment, maneuverability, utter survivability, and long endurance. The Topol-M itself is more accurate, reliable, robust than the old Topol, and more immune to the action of interception weapons, including nuclear interceptors.
While the United States is stepping up its efforts to deploy early warning radars and interceptors as close to Russia’s borders as possible to detect missile launches and kill missiles at the boost stage of flight when they are the most vulnerable — and as long as the body and the warhead are still in one piece — the Topol-M, powered by three solid-propellant boosters, accelerates faster than earlier ICBMs and is accordingly less vulnerable to that kind of attack. The missile also has scores of auxiliary jets and a state-of-the-art flight control system that enables a three-dimensional, or 3D, avoidance maneuver capability from the first seconds of flight.
And on top of everything else — in every sense — is the nuclear re-entry vehicle, in fact a ramjet-boosted supersonic cruise missile whose additional sustainer engine accelerates it to between Mach 4 and Mach 5 (Mach is the speed equal to the speed of sound in the air).The United States had its own designs but the program was discarded as too costly, shifting the focus to transonic vehicles. Russia dropped its own hypersonic project in 1992. Or so they said.
Back in July 2001, observers animatedly discussed a Topol test launch, in which the warhead demonstrated a clearly non-ballistic performance. Someone suggested the warhead had special engines capable of generating enough thrust for a maneuver at high altitudes and at very high speeds.
However, the topic was highlighted again only three years later during the Security 2004 exercise. An RS-18 — also known as the SS-19 Stiletto in NATO designation — carried a new experimental re-entry vehicle that in effect “bounced” between the upper atmosphere and outer space. This maneuver is incredible as a normal re-entry velocity for a warhead is around 5,000 miles per hour. The test vehicle, however, defied skeptics and successfully survived all the maneuvers thanks to its effective heat and G-load protection systems.
Such maneuverability renders a missile system a crucial surprise advantage, as the adversary cannot launch a fire-and-forget interceptor weapon because no anticipated point of contact is known or can be reliably calculated. Normally, the Topol-M carries one warhead but, unlike other strategic ICBMs, it can be easily upgraded with an advanced warhead carrying up to three independently targetable re-entry vehicles.
The warhead fires off the vehicles in midcourse, changing direction twice a minute to fool warning radars as to where the charges are heading. Each vehicle is assigned an individual target at up to 100km (60 miles) from the separation point.
As Russian Chief of Staff Colonel Gen. Yuri Baluevsky put it, “The vehicle can successfully avoid monitors and penetrate all missile defense systems, including the ones still under development.
“In a huge improvement over conventional ballistic warheads, this re-entry vehicle can either follow a preset flight maneuvering program or be re-targeted when it is already over enemy territory,” he said. This means that the re-entry vehicle will effectively penetrate anything the U.S. military is trying to build now
Source.RIAN.
star49that plane surely is FC-1 with F-18 style.
star49Grouth of a country dosent have to do anything with Islamic idealogy! see Malaysia!
i know there ethinic mix and beliefs. but i doubt u understand this difference. so there is no point in explaining this.
Ahhaah you have no clue my friend about Pakistan and Afghanistan relations!
You better study a lil bit about Pashtunistan before throwing those nonsenses.
surely i dont know these things. :rolleyes: and Pak didnot import people from outside to rule over afghanistan. they were same afghans who got money and believed on certain ideology. they could have rejected the money and ideology but they were greedy. similar is the case of Pak it also made mistakes by sucking too much to arabs. (which in turn were following some one else agenda).
but any way u have to look into future.
star49.
Yes Israel has an effective intelligence system concerning Russia. Few people who are involved in air combat doubt the Israeli AF’s ability to back up their word.
Adrian
that may be the case before when soviet industries were widely disperesed in former republics. now with russia it is very different matter. u will be spending rest of life in siberia if anything is slightly out of the way of those who matter.
I read during MAKS 2005 they closed down one stall of radar manufacturer just for exhibiting which is not equal to transfer of tech. and i think russia has very good espionage on West now. they can virtually buy there way into capitalist system due to hard currency.
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