star49believe it or not….we have been importing munitions from SA on large scale for qutie some time not….sanctions or no sanctions….shipments came thru chartered flights direct from SA to karachi intl….flight being handled by PAF staff….weapons offloaded were moved to 105 AED n 102 AED…..from there shiped to MOBz using C-130z…..105 is the largest weapons storage facility in PAF…..toping out at 60,000 tons of munitions…..these include data for the entire Darter family……if u dont want to belive me…then not my problem……just dont be shocked if u see a few of them with us for live fire tests
and how can u claim THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER BVRM ON THE JF-17 ASIDE FROM CHINESE MISSILES?…..do you any of the ops requiremnt of the JF?….JF-17s ar to be produced locally, with the way things are going…JF might fly with french or US radars….
abt F-16s……final specs havnt been decided as of yet…
u seem to have difficulty in understanding what i wrote.ur answer on integration was way of the mark. i didnot said that PAF hast bought anything from SA. I was merely asking when the contracts were signed? u dont have any clue on this thing. delivery schedule does not matter.
and how difficult is making specification of F-16. wasnt there a meeting between US and Paf last August on it and they were about to notify just before the earth quake or they were going without specification.? and French and US radars for JF-17. u must be out of mind. after spending money and time on Chinese avionics u are going to replace it overnight. this is laughable. and where is French radar for Mirage III?. and when has US selling radars to other fighters. even erieye deal after MOU is under threat of revision. just look at the words lowest and best for AWACS.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/defaul…_7-3-2006_pg1_1
General Musharraf told the editors that Pakistan was hoping to get a 600 MW nuclear reactor from China and a 1000 MW nuclear reactor from the US and could buy state of the art weapons and aircraft at any time. He also said that it was shopping around for AWACS and that Swedish AWACs weren’t the only option in the market. “The Chinese systems are being incorporated into the Chinese air force. “So we’ll get the best system at the lowest and most competitive price, he elaborated.” The discussion about weapons systems and deterrence was framed in the light of India’s defence budgets and the recent US nuclear deal with India. But he was careful to insist that Pakistan would not enter into an arms race in the region
star49the only air to air missile in service with PAF today is the Aim-9L/P….thats it
LOLZ…i dun hav a cat….even if i had one..i sure as hell wouldnt be talking to it cuz it wont understand me…if ur cat is such a genious, contact hollywood 😛
lolz…..my point was just directed at newspapers…..defence magz are usually very reliable
PAF was interested in the south african munitions in early 2005….we went as far as puttin up a reqest for a technical attache in SA…darter family was the primary weapon in particuler PAf was lookin at….thats just it….we had the data for the r-daters…..thing is…you work with wat you have….and not wat you may get…..dater family was hot top in 2004/05 in PAF….hence the news….you dont go and simulate a weapon you dont hav in a massive exercise like high mark…..this is done on a smaller scale exercises…..and besides….to simulate a weapon, you aircrew must be trained for that weapon, n the jetz computers programed to handle the weapon..
ur post does not make any sense. Pak was under SA sanction after 1999 and denel was hoping to get that Indian artellery contract since than. every thing of substance happened under old agreements signed before 1999. and u are claiming they are currently evaluating R-darter when Chinese radar is selected for JF-17 and there cant BVR from any other source on it. I dont think u even understand shell life of missiles.
here is about F-16. It just confirm what i wrote few pages ago. F-16 under this kind of arrangement cant be high tecth.
http://www.dawn.com/2006/03/07/top1.htm
He said he was willing to buy F-16s if they came under the EAD concessional facility of Non-Nato Alliance arrangement. Otherwise, it would be in the self-interest of Pakistan to spend the money on social sectors to reduce poverty, and spread educational and health facilities
star49And 4.5T it is , all the figure of 6000 ~ 5000 are not correct
You cant say the manufacturers figures are wrong , Even Sumeet at BRF quoted figures from Janes which has 4.5T as its warload weight
Its 5500 kg for MIG-29K. i think MIG figures are old. u have to consider the MTOW of SMT and K version.
http://www.rusarm.ru/p_frame/main.htm
star49It’s a puzzle to me why F-8 never got any export either. I guess the maintenance is too much.
maintaince cost may be one thing. but range and payload is also issue and external tanks takes weopon station point. Sudan paid around $400m for MIG-29+Mi-24. i guess they got some thing like -SMT standard with increase range and payload.
I’m not sure JF-17 even has IRST. In that video, it says JF-17 has PD radar, EW suite, glass cockpit and datalink, but no mention of IRST.
video may show only one or two slides as media is not allowed for whole briefing just for opening statements. so small details we dont see like HMD or IRST.
JDW 04/28/04
The avionics suite is of Chinese origin, comprising a smart head-up display, infra-red search-and-track system, night-vision goggle capability and ring-laser gyro inertial navigation system with GPS
As for WS-13, they said that WS-13 is important because it has a better potential to be upgraded to higher T/W ratio engine than WS-10. Maybe the next generation medium size fighter will be using two uprated WS-13 engines.
As for WS-13, this is one place they were talking about JF-17’s cost and such
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/htm_data/118/0505/122344.html
include the opening post by the resident expert.
由于最近黎阳在仿制RD93（WS13：天山发动机）以及利用国内中推技术研制WS12（泰山发动机）两个方面都取得了可喜进展，困扰超七的另一项大问题动力问题也不再尖锐和严峻——虽然两种发动机还没有到定型批产的地步，这对于超七以后价格下降很有帮助。而超七本来就可以配置国产航电以及雷达和武器系统，所以超七如果国内采购的话，所有成品和系统也基本可以立足国内，估计价格可以控制。
Notice that the domestic engines are expected to lower the cost of JF-17.
it seems to me WS-13 closely resemble RD series because Klimov chief is calling it building partners. i will be surprized if twin engine fighter is based on these engines. once u are in twin engine category it is better to build big plane.
As the plant’s general director, Aleksandr Vatagin, reported a press conference, at the present time so-called service life tests of the new item are taking place at the test run-up area ((OPYTNAYA PLOSHCHADKA)) which will allow determining for the “Osa” the service life of its operation.
According to Aleksandr Vatagin, China’s aviators are motor building partners. RD-93 engines have been made for them, the first of which have been sent to the customers. At the present time, consultations are being held with colleagues from a number of countries on the subject of possible cooperation in production of the new generation of equipment.
Source: 27.01.06, ITAR-TASS
star49i don’t know what the WS-13 development cost have anything to do with this. Do you realize that WS-13 has other applications than FC-1? In fact, numerous twin-engined proposals by CAC and SAC probably plans to use WS-13 as the engine for the 5th generation fighter.
I dont think WS-13 is good idea to begin with. World is clearly moving towards either single engine or twin fighter but with powerful engine. even MIG will ditch the Rd series engine in favor or AL-41f for next fighter. with twin small engines u are going to create fighter with lesser range and more weight than single engine fighter.
I have no idea where you got the $150m integration cost from.
It is from previous page and . an u have to consider these statements from past also. there is major thrust in acquiring tech from around the world for this project.
The Vice President of AVIC-1 told the Minister that the JF-17 Thunder will be having the best avionics systems and would contribute a lot towards strengthening the Defence capability of Pakistan particularly the Air Force
PPI April 6, 2005
Warraich said Turkey was an important country which makes F-16 fighter aircraft, besides state-of-the-art electronic warfare being used in NATO countries. The minister said Turkish officials had informed that Turkey would provide electronic warfare equipment to Pakistan.
[quote]
The recent changes didn’t cost that much, they basically just took what they developed on J-10 and put it on FC-1.
How much do you think that can cost? From what I’ve been reading, the airframe development cost was $450million (mentionned on the Pakistani websites). Again, I have no idea where you got your $550 million from.
J-10 has different design so u cant take. u have to build more prototypes and do the flight tests. which cost money. not to mention twin seater. these are old figures so no more relevant.
Looking at the recently subsidized sales of F-7 to Bangladesh, I’m guessing you could conceivably get downgraded JF-17s for 12 million if you are Bangladesh.
the thing is no one buy down graded fighter once it enters BVR and Standoff weopon stage. u have to put things like IRST, HMD, navigation and communication equipment, multi-mode radar.
just look at Sudan it bought MIG-29 and has i think J-7 for low end. ideally it should have gone for F-8 type aircraft due to major investment of China in Oil industry.
star49come again….ALREADY INTERGRATED???……you kidding me….if it was that easy to intergrate a weapon to a jet….dont you think our R-530/550 would have also flown on F-16s as well???….who u kidding man….btw R530z are still in cold storage
do ou hav any idea just how difficult n expensive weapons intergration of this sort is??….you just dont put the damn thing on the pylon and expect it to work……
oh btw do u know…only the ROSE modified mirages carry the H2/H4…and that too only ONE SINGLE missile on the centerline station…..H2/H4 hav NOT BEEN INTERGRATED ON OUR F-16s or any other fighter in PAFz inventory…..then again….AGM-65 mavricks have never been intergrated on mirages…..if intergration were that simple, mirages would be flyign with mavricks
and if u say its been intergrated and fielded….mind telling me the units that hav qualified for JSOW?….i know Mushaf, Rafique or Minshas didnt take any diliverys of JSOW…i know for sure 9,11th n 25th sqdnz havnt seen any JSOW (9th n11th operate F-16s n 25th operates Mirages III/V Rose II)……i know the acas aircrafts, electronics, ops n weapons never signed anythign that aproved JSOW….unless you give me a unit n an airframe number thats been qualified for AGM-154s…you are bull****ing man
why would mirage need maverick and F-16 needs R-550? and what is meant by integration? and how it differrs with different kind of seekers.
star49That’s what the Chinese websites are saying, in fact less than 1 million per WS-10A engine. Everything is cheaper in China. You should know that by now. Actually, the RD-93 engines are going to be delivered by 2009. WS-13A should be certified in 3 years time. And remember, Russia would not let FC-1 exported to any country that Mig-29 is also in competition for as long as FC-1 is using RD-93. Anyhow, if you still think FC-1 is going to use RD-93 for export rather than WS-13, there is no point in expanding this argument anymore.
i have doubts about this prices or may be Chinese government is deep subsidizing it. even cheaper option will be putting WS-10 in it.
any way do the simple math. $550m for airframe development (which is irrelevant after recent changes), $300m for engines. and now the avionics is the unknown part. previous plan was that vendor built complete avionics on its own funds and if it meets the specification complete TOT will be bought. so it can be any price. but now we know only integration cost $150m but this is not avionics development and certainly not building factory of actually making the fighter and parts. so we are already cross the $1B mark based on old figures without considering the factory and TOT costs. and cost of actually making fighter separate.
star49lolzz @ insider….i aint settin out ot prove anything anyway…im a 21 yr old civilian pilot lookin for a job in the airlines industry and hoping my dad gets his 2nd star……thats it
we did a study wen we were commading 109AED……both NDC n AWC hav the capability to replicate 9L….only prolem is a few components in the guidence system which need to be imported and are on the prohibited list…
thing is….wen it comes to PAF, they are willing to pay millions for soemthign which has a tag MADE IN US/JAPAN/EUROPE/CHINA or watever…..but wen it comes to the local industries…everythign is jsut tooo expensive….you tell me…1 million USD and 1 million PK rupees…..whoz cheaper?…
abt china wanting or not wanting the JF……tell me…..PAF abandoned the program after it got the F-16s in 1984……y did china continue the project alone with grumman??….after 1984 PAF only joined back in 1992…….if china never wanted it, y would she waste billions on something she never wanted?….again pakistans ONLY technical contribution is the feasibility study which was done by grumman for PAF….the rest of the jet is chinese with russian help……china wanted PAF so send 100 officers n enlisted personnal ( 10 pilots, 90 engineers n technicians) to work on hte project in 1998…..do you wat PAF sent??…..7 pilots 1 engineer n 2 technicians…..the engineer being the junior most of the batch…meaning he was the pilots bitch and did absolutly NO WORK on the programing ..
call me watever you want….you dont even havta believe me…..i jsut come here to chk on a few topics….and some of the stuff i find makes me laugh…..n this one is going nowhere either…..you dont know the ops requirement…know dont know the type of binding PAF is under with respect to chinese equipment and supplies……you dont know alot….but this is wat this thread is about rite?…
but just know….9L/M/X are included in the package with the F-16s….AMRAAMs are also on cuz otherwise weapons/ops side of PAF is against inducting F-16s and more in favor of an alternate, likely to be a european or russian alternate, PAF evaluated MiG-29s and Su-27-30s…….
but anyway im out….hav a nice chat u all
how can AIM-9L will be in F-16 package? are they even produced. and PAF cant get Russian fighter untill India looks the other way. and those F-16 were signed in 1981. ur post does not make any sense.
star49Even J-10 won’t cost $40 million.
lol, the 3 million engine will be replaced by the 1 million WS-13A once the export season starts. Trust me, FC-1 can be downgraded. They can take prototype 01 and remove even FBW redundancy, put a domestic engine on it, export even more downgraded SD-10 and PL-9C. CAC has often said that J-7MF can be just as capable as FC-1. You can obviously downgrade J-7MF to less capable J-7. That should tell you how far FC-1 can be downgraded.
And of course JF-17 will be PAF’s frontline aircraft. Look at what PAF has right now? Is it really that surprising?
the engine that russia provides are already at rock bottom prices. u cannot go lower than this for modern turbo fan engine with fadec. because they developed every thing during soviet times and have vast experiance. and it willl take untill 2010 just to consume those RD series engine. u need another series of flight tests just to put another engine in it. so its very long way to go to put another engine in this. offcourse FC-1 can be downgraded but where will be the market for this. that market will be taken by J-7. PAF Miragesa are already equiped with F-16MLU standard radar and 2 MFD with PGM capability. so it is not bad either.
star49It just confirm again what i said.
He said the JF-17 Thunder will be the frontline aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force in the next decade as it has the necessary punch, the avionics and the capability to defend country’s airspace
star49interesting, so now you are including the experience factor in it as part of the cost, but that should be added as additional benefits for JF-17. Anyhow, if you wish to add upgrade cost as part of the JF-17 program, you’d have to do the same for the F-16s. And the MLU program definitely cost more than any possible Chinese upgrades. As for the upgrades, CAC has already planned them out, they just haven’t showed them yet. As long as Pakistan is willing to fork the money, CAC will put them on.
JF-17 can be downgraded, trust me on this. It can get downgraded to the point where it will just have a superior airframe to J-7 with a bigger nose and can fire SD-10. So, if you think it can’t be exported as a low tech item, you are dead wrong here.
yes u can sell strip down version of aircraft but there is no big benefit involved except for assembly line busy. u need rich clients that can fund ur R&D for next level. u forget there is $3m engine inside FC-1. u cannot bring down cost to J-7 level and make profit. It is better to compete in $40 to $100m market. F-16 R&D costs are sunk already no customer is bearing now unless some special version like F-16E.
star49That really depends on how advanced PAF wants this thing to be. If it wants full FBW and PESA radar, the cost would obviously go up. If it buys an excessive amount of AAMs, the cost would also go up. Remember, PAF already have Chinese AAMs to equip its current Chinese fighters, so that would lower down the cost of JF-17 packages. The Pakistani pilots have already been flying these JF-17s, so the training cost would be not that high. I would say that even if you add all possible cost (including ToT, AAMs, pods, PGMs), the average cost won’t exceed 20 million. (Remember the rumour of Zimbabewe getting 12 JF-17s for 200 million?) That’s much lower than F-16 block 50. Look at the Greek deal.
China’s payment plans are some of the most flexible ones. That’s how it managed to attract so many orders. Especially when it comes to a close friend like Pakistan, China normally makes things fairly cheap. Otherwise, the Pakistanis would have trouble purchasing the 4 F-22P frigates and such.
I dont know what kind of aircraft zimbabewe was offered.
but the aircraft sold in Africa cannot be sold in Middleast or elsewhere. i have read old report Pak invited two other countries to join this project but they werent interested. u cannot sell medium tech aircraft in 21st century. It should be either high tech or low tech. high tech means fully automated aircraft with minimum work load on pilot and ground crews and ability to have wide variety of stand off weopons , full protection ew suite and netcentric ability. and PAF officials has stated this aircraft will get continous upgrades like F-16 blocks. i think they are willing to spend what ever it takes.
so i would not be surprized that JF-17 gets increased thrust engine, CFT, increase MTOW, AESA, composites etc in near future. so u have to factor this continous R&D costs on PAF along with buying machines, training people to build and maintain and even building weopons for it. so the scale of program is much bigger than it is reported. so u cannot put single cost figure.
star49How is it financed? using the military grants from the american government most likely. I’ve given you the price for JF-17, the per unit cost is clearly smaller. If you are so clear abou the additional costs, why don’t you do a breakdown? Why don’t you give a guestimate of the operation costs and maintenance cost and such? I would think both costs shouldn’t be that high due to the fact that JF-17 is a relatively simple design. The fact that PAF operates F-7 might help along too.
are u sure about the price of JF-17? or is it figure from the past. any way comparing catalogue price of F-16 vs JF-17 is moot point in case of PAF. F-16 already has the spares, engine overhaul, pilot training , experiance and tactics already in place. and F-16 new block is already fully developed aircraft as far as weopons are concerned. it will take some time for JF-17 to reach that level in PAF. so it is not point which one is more advanced. and if u buy 100 F-16 for $4B it does not mean that each aircraft costs $40m. US can structure the deal of spreading payments over 40 years. so cash flow is $100m per year.
Flight testing for new weopons and prototypes is in addition to it.
http://www.dawn.com/2004/08/12/nat11.htm
Officials estimate that integration alone of new emerging aircraft like JF-17 Thunder costs about $150 million. The cost of avionics is in addition to it. And the acquiring of indigenous capabilities in the field of avionic and aerospace could also be extended to friendly countries with a view to generating profit
star49No, I only describe future effects of actual Russian plans for modernizing its nuclear triad! Of course, it is sad you can’t perceive all these future ruinous results of Putin’s unilateral nuclear disarmament additionally not compensated by strengthing of Russian conventional capabilities. For example, only a complete madman in Russian MoD/General Staff/Government (???) can support opinion that THREE SSBNs is enough for deterrence!
You are wrong, star49! I inform you USSR was selling weapons worth $20 billions ANNUALLY and Soviets were the world’s biggest arms supplier up to its downfall!
who knows that the capabilities of the 3 submarines are much more than soviet era un reliable systems. and those $20b of weopons were mostly junk produced with no quality control and no hard exchange. now Russia weopons were fully customized, have service centers in respective countries, full warranty and training staff. no country buys weopon on hard currency unless all the requirements are met and demonstrated. so u cannot compare past with present or future.
I don’t think so: You probably forgot about about 400 nuclear reactors on Soviet SSNs! 😀
Unfortunately, loss of key factories, design bureaus and weapon’s components produced outside Russia isn’t so simple to replace. The cost of starting its production in Russia would be enormous and Russia has many troubles with financing its own military complex. That is why Yuri Solomonov stated in an interview that Russia finally lost capabilities to produce and apply about TWO HUNDRED key military components and technologies! Well, in present financial and political situation Russia can forget not only about all “now abroad” but also many of its own underfounded technologies. As I read somewhere in the Russian press that minimum cost-effective SS-27’s production rate is 10-15 missiles annually! But now “brilliant” Ivanov wants to buy TWO mobile Topol-Ms yearly! Well, you could ask this duffer what he manage to do if Votkinsk plant and its sub-suppliers go into bankrupcy in several years and thus Russia lost potentiality to produce its sole ICBM??? 🙁
they are still producing what is important and required. otherwise they wouldnt have those multi-billion export deals and who knows they may accelerated the deployment of missiles in future years as they have boat load of money now.
star49many other aircraft have 3 MDFs with color LCDs.. even older aircraft
F-5BR
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=531646&postcount=8
presence of 3 MFD does not mean same level of information. F-5 does not have fadec engine to begin with. brazil have aew so they may need it but it is not gripen the central display is small indicating the cramped cockpit.
Sign In
