star49ink, I haven’t had the time to answer until now.
Essentially, there are, alas not one, but 2 kinds of problems with the programme:
1. Specification-related
The RusAF’s original concept called for a fighter in the F-22 class to replace the Su-27. Sukhoi was selected. However, early on in the T-50 design studies it became clear that the fighter would simply be greatly overweight, while the AL-41 could not provide the neccessary trust for such a machine.
engine is not the issue by the time operational fighter reach squardon service 200KN engine will already developed. i am talking about 2015-2020 period. so it is long project so incremental thrust increase will solve the problem over time. this was the same i think with flanker development. so it is not a big reason for changing requirements.
2. Resource-related
Despite Pogosyan’s assurances, Sukhoi has shifted a critical mass of its designers to the RRJ. The ones that remained are busy with the T-10BM project, which, by the way, is a very good modernization. The feel is that this is what the RusAF end up getting as a next gen 4+++ Su-27 replacement, not any kind of the PAK FA implementation.DISCLAIMER: the information in this post is not classified and has already appeared in public sources in one or another form.
actually RRJ will give Sukhoi advance manufacturing technology as it has collobration with West and same can be applied to PAK-FA. and will give future self sustaining revenues so i dont think it can effect in long term.
star49The way I ve understood it…there is nothing being considered beyond Barak 2, which itself is well into its development (like I said before its been in the works for a long time, dont go by published reports). I really doubt that the IN will scale back on the new Barak and look for a longer range SAM, if you heard otherwise I guess only time will tell who is right….but given that ppl who do this kinda stuff for a living have been emphatic about Barak being the next gen IN SAM (and no they are pretty sure Aster 30 does not meet their future needs) I really doubt if we will see another SAM.
Wheather the drones believe it or not IN found the S-300 to be not very good value for the money in the long term and so it decided to go with the Barak. Remember there is a lot of work that been done in Air Defence even in India even if you dont like the Akash there are a lot of systems that are in place for which no shiny brouchures exist. The new Barak fits in nicely with those plans.
At the risk of sounding very pompous in about 1-2 decades with the Brahmos Family, Barak Family, Akula family, P 75A,B,I family and its own constellation of “various” satellites family the IN will be one big happy family in the IOR. The riff raff can enjoy their Rif and other ding dongs.
in long term every missile systems goes obsolete unless u continously update it and train ur personel for effective use and maintainance. so there is no point in comparing some thing that is going to be developed in future with some thing developed in past.
star49First of all it isnt I who tried to paint a rosy picture about hindues not protesting defamation of their Gods, its you. So learn to respect the facts when you see them. Just like you conveniently stepped over the incident involving a play that was offensive to the Sikhs and was banned in the UK. As for the toilet seats incident sir I am just reflecting on the protest done when this defamation took place and just incase you didnt notice the article was about the hindue audience in the US and not India. Once again keep in mind that the toilet seat design was recalled in the after math of a protest by the hindues. American Hindus Against Defamation were at the forefront of this effort .
Now coming over the show defaming the Jesus, well I am repeating myself since I am dead sure you did not pay enough attention to my words in the last post and continued on show your love for the freedom of speech when it involves defamation of a religion. Now read, Muslims were ‘never’ a part of any decision that nothing is sacred and freedom of expression means freedom to blasphemy. A boycott is a perfectly legitimate and a perfectly modern method. Muslims are ‘as much’ a part of this century as everybody else. But they ‘do not’ have to live by “enlightenment” principles which are western principles and are infact not shared by most of the world. .
and how those enlightened principles are not shared by rest of the world? and Muslims are enjoying the fruits of those enlightenment as all modern day comforts came directly from that. do you think 10 million would go and come from saudi arabia without Aero Plane in existence or they could have listened to that live broad casts every year without satellite TV? the thing is that u are using things of some one else civilization without appreciating it. and dont start over 1000 year old history.i perfectly understand it.
star49First of all it isnt I who tried to paint a rosy picture about hindues not protesting defamation of their Gods, its you. So learn to respect the facts when you see them. Just like you conveniently stepped over the incident involving a play that was offensive to the Sikhs and was banned in the UK. As for the toilet seats incident sir I am just reflecting on the protest done when this defamation took place and just incase you didnt notice the article was about the hindue audience in the US and not India. Once again keep in mind that the toilet seat design was recalled in the after math of a protest by the hindues. American Hindus Against Defamation were at the forefront of this effort .
Now coming over the show defaming the Jesus, well I am repeating myself since I am dead sure you did not pay enough attention to my words in the last post and continued on show your love for the freedom of speech when it involves defamation of a religion. Now read, Muslims were ‘never’ a part of any decision that nothing is sacred and freedom of expression means freedom to blasphemy. A boycott is a perfectly legitimate and a perfectly modern method. Muslims are ‘as much’ a part of this century as everybody else. But they ‘do not’ have to live by “enlightenment” principles which are western principles and are infact not shared by most of the world. .
and how those enlightened principles are not shared by rest of the world? and Muslims are enjoying the fruits of those enlightenment as all modern day comforts came directly from that. do you think 10 million would go and come from saudi arabia without Aero Plane in existence or they could have listened to that live broad casts every year without satellite TV? the thing is that u are using things of some one else civilization without appreciating it. and dont start over 1000 year old history.i perfectly understand it.
star49Again you did not read what was posted above. When did I NOT say that you have the Shtils. I just said that IN knows what Shtils can do...what S-300 can do and decided to stay away from both and go with what Barak can do. Unless you contend that Chinese get the better tech than India...coz that would only open another cannot of whooping for you.
it is not about who gets better tech but who can deliver the most money in shortest period of time. the days of free launches and cheap licenses from Russia are over. and it is stated explicitly by there defence minister. so unless u can show the money for S-300 missile system on huge scale u are not likely to get updated and customized one. and dont even mention future. every nation has newer weopons under development so u have to show what u currently have not what u will get in future which may be on time or not. there are more examples of weopons not becoming operational on time.
star49It is very hard to imagine than any country will offer all the engine, radar, weopons tech unless there is very big amount involved. and it very difficult that one will allow to install radar from another country on its fighter. this not going to happen for new fighters.
MiG-29M1/M2 considered favorite at India’s fighter tender
MOSCOW. Jan 30 (Interfax-AVN) – The MiG-29M1/M2 (MiG-35) light multi-role fighter has the best chances to be selected as the winner in the Indian tender on acquisition of up to 200 light future-generation combat aircraft, a source in the international military-technical cooperation sphere told Interfax-Military News Agency Monday.
“Licensing of active phased array airborne radars production to India is the prerequisite for tenderers who wish to be selected. It is exactly because of this condition in the tender dossier that almost all tenderers, who submitted applications initially, refused to continue the participation,” the source said.
According to him, the U.S. came with its F-16 fighter with an active phased array radar, but is reluctant to issue a license to India for radar production. That is why the F-16’s further participation in the tender is not yet certain.
The French Mirage 2000-5 does not meet the technical specifications of the tender in full, the source went on. “Only the French Rafale is equipped with an active phased-array radar, but it has not been submitted for the tender. Moreover, the French are not eager to hand over technologies either,” he said.
Sweden’s Gripen will most likely fail to satisfy the Indians either, as assembling the aircraft Sweden depends much on very close cooperation with suppliers from other countries.
“It seems that only the Russian MiG-29M1/M2, to be later designated MiG-35, is still in the race,” the source stressed.
He also said that the main advantage of the Russian side is the readiness to hand over all manufacturing technologies on the aircraft to the customer.
star49I’d say that their power has been eroded over the last 10 years. Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. have better equipped forces. Iran has mainly 1970’s vintage equipment (not only aircraft, but tanks etc). It is questionable as to how capable Saudi and UAE military personel are in terms of training but Iran is a bit of an unkonown entity here too. The Iran-Iraq War finished 18 years ago and many of the personnel who fought in this war would have retired by now or at least been given desk jobs. I also am not aware of the quality of Iranian training programs. There are other issues such as overall force readiness which are also unknowns when it comes to Middle Eastern military capabilities.
But on paper, Saudi Arabia and UAE look to be a lot more capable than Iran. Especially in terms of airpower where you have Saudi F-15’s, upgraded Tornados, and soon-to-be delivered Eurofighters and the UAE with it’s F-16E/F’s and Mirage 2000-9’s. Pakistan is looking to acquire new F-16’s while Turkey is upgrading its F-16’s and F-4’s and is looking at acquiring F-35’s in the near future. Iran on the other hand has a bunch of ageing F-14A’s, F-5E/F’s and F-4D/E’s backed up by small numbers of Su-24 and arguably useless MiG-29’s (useless in BVR). I doubt they will be able to sustain Mirage F1 ops for very long without some sort of support in terms of spares and maintennance unless they have clandestine help from someone like South Africa.
i think u are wrong on this one. there is no country like Iran in that region. but u have to understand the meaning of power in proper way.
star49FACT 2: Indians signed up for 140 MKI and 920 FP in 2000.
so where is the first engine from production line? 5 years have already passed it is taking longer than even building a submarine. and 920 engines makes sense if u are going to keep flankers for 50 years just like MIG-21 but it still does not prove that u have got 7 engines spare for current flankers. there is no such thing that u want others to believe and deduce flying hrs from that.
star49No my clueless friend. Its the other way around. Phalcon is more capable therefore it is more expensive. Doing a little research on this would really help.
so prove it that phalcon is more expensive than Saab system. just exclude the cost of aircraft .
Sigh……….look above. Research this out. You know what that larger radar and aircraft have that the smaller aircraft cannot manage?
so what specific things u want to manage that smaller cannot?
That’s a retarded example. For one most ground based radars are stationary.
most ground based radars are now mobile but you only think that things move only in air.
Nope. It’s an AESA alright. L band T/R modules.
how many modules?
Thank you. Now only if the Erieye supporters do a little research on AEWCs and their respective capabilities.
why dont u show ur research as an example.
No but they sure as hell have far better N/C infrastructure and tech when compared to PAF which is practically no where on the scene. If you think having the Erieye is all of a sudden going to change the picture then you are mistaken. PAF has no C4I assets to talk off.
erieye is onlee 30% of deal so it is not a major component to begin with. u can get any radar with the sam saab systems and the result is the same. but i dont think u can read that deep. why dont u show some specific example of decent C4I.
Yeah ok. We will see when that happens. It is not a cut and paste job. Building such infrastructure is a slow process that require $$$$ and technology availability.
where i said that it is fast process. major contractor is saab who happens to be excellent in comand and control systems even for submarines.
Yes indeed. IAF is in the habit of getting user specific machines ever since the Su30MKI and not generic models. Everything has a mix of inputs from various vendors (local, French, Israeli, Russian) to make the item more potent. IAF Phalcon will pretty much be a far different beast than any other export model. Indian systems such as datalinks, IFF, part EW/Recce are expected.
given the stellar time line shown in creating MKI. it is not hard to judge that couple of decades will not be sufficient to operationalize Phalcon.
star49I quoted the Flug revue article which clearly mentions the weakness of eyerie in the 15 degree quadrants front and back. the rotodone radars(E3) and the triangular radars(phalcon) dont have such drawbacks.
they may be referring to earlier version on SAAB-340.
> 50 seater a.c
but what is the mission endurance of this thing ? can it fly 500km from its base and stay on station for 8 hrs and fly back ? pakistan has no AAR to sustain this. and it surely wont be flying from islamabad or lahore more like samugli(quetta) or another place far to the west.
mission endurance is upto 9 hrs but u dont need that much as there is greater number of platforms. and refuelling of IL-76 is nightmare during war. i doubt one IL-76 can hold enough to refuel another one.
> datalinks
mig29 and su30 have it, a better one is being developed for Tejas and will probably be installed on the whole fleet in due course. there have been indian specified work on phalcon to prepare for existing & planned iaf systems
but still it is not link 16 that u said it is necessary.
http://www.ericsson.com/products/hp/ERIEYE_pos.shtml
ERIEYE is a complete AEW&C system, including radar (with integrated SSR/IFF), electronic support measures, communications and data links, comprehensive command-and-control facilities and self-protection system.
but this 5 years old report on smaller aircraft. i doubt u can deduce future capabilit from the past.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0004/FR0004b.htm
Raytheon used an Airbus A310-300 with Phalcon-Radar of the IAI-daughter Elta in its Wedgetail tender. It works with electronic scanned array, but it is housed in a (fixed) rotodome. The aerials form a triangle, the top of which points to the back in order to achieve a good 360*cover. The mission system uses DEC Alpha Computers. Patrol time is said to be over eight hours. With a take off weight of 164,000kg the A310 is one of the large AWACS platforms. Ericsson proves that a smaller carrier aircraft can be used with its Erieye-System, which in the case of the Swedish Flygvapnet makes do with a Saab 340.
The nine meter long aerial with electronic scanned array is installed on the back of the turboprop propelled regional commercial aircraft. The range is an impressive 350 to 450km, although there is no complete 360*cover. In the area of +/- 15* to the front and back the performance drops markedly. Another negative aspect is the low number of consoles, which means that data for intensive analysis has to be sent to ground stations
star49> pakistan buys a solution that fits their needs
pakistan buys the best they can afford among what is available. E3 and phalcon arent options for them. hawkeye “may” have been offered.
only two AWACS were evaluated according June 2004 AFM. Erieye and Chinese.
there is doubt people can do a lot more with E3 or phalcon if they have the budget for it.
for example what u can do that erieye system cannot do.
if you put “phalcon radar” into google, the 1st page brings up a Flug-revue link on the Aussie wedgetail purchase. some limitations mentioned therein for Ereyie are:
– there is no 360 cover. in an area of +- 15 front and back the performance drops markedly
– low number of consoles. data for intensive analysis has to be downlinked
every awacs have blind spots. it depends on how u use and it is advertized 360 degree.
and mission endurance is going to an issue if spare crews cannot be carried abroad and kept in a rest area…even if AAR is available which for pakistan it isnt.
it is 50 passenger aircraft. so it can carry two set of pilots and it has highly automated cockpit. only 2 pilots enough.
Its easy to talk about “net centric” warfare in the context of the US. not so credible in the case of users like pakistan.
Do they have airborne relay and C4I platforms – no
Do they have link16 type datalinks pervasively – no
do they have dedicated commsats – no
so Sweden, India , Russia and China use link 16?
all they have is a old ground based JTIDS system supplied by US in early 1980s with a few control rooms spread around the country in the major airbases.
this whole thing will be updated for erieye.
star49this 920 engines are unbelievable unless they have secretly started engine building under TOT license but even there is no proof of this big number.
star49the crappy F-15K’s.
Those “crappy” F-15K’s will help allow South Korea to remain one of the most powerful air force’s in the region.
Name another airplane that currently has the multi-role capabilities of the F-15K that’s fresh off the production lines. No, not even the mighty Su-30 has the weapons capabilities that the F-15K has right now.
i would be interested to know Anti-ship capability of F-15K. how many anti-ship missiles does it carry and to what range and speed.
In Pacific multi-role means overhelming anti-ship capability. i think russian Su-27SM, Su-30MK2 and JH-7 have similar or better capability.
star49Ah if only it were that easy to shoot down an AEW&C aircraft. You see the home side also realizes the importance of having such an assets. It’s kind of hard to kill something that is pretty much commanding every move on the battlefield. And with more capable systems things only get worse for the other side.
it is not about hitting the AWACS in the air but on the ground through saturation missile attacks.
erm IAF is sort of slightly ahead in N/C warfare techniques compared to its neighbors. Those same assets and command centers are available to IAF too. Only IAF has an actual force multiplier that gives them an unmatched advantage. Just because a Phalcon goes down does not mean IAF C&C will fall into chaos. Most modern IAF aircraft have datalinks to communicate with each other.
so u are assuming only for IAF the force multiplier?
No. They have chosen the Erieye because their budget can only support an incomplete small frame AEW&C and not a mammoth like the Phalcon/E3. Secondly it’s not like this technology is available to them. They can only buy what is available to them.
explain to me how ERIRYE Is cheaper. ur Phalcon deal is worth $1.1B while Erieye is around $1B but u have 3 IL-76 to count for which is hardly a comparision with almost free refurbished SAAB-2000. agian dont count the number of aircraft but overall package. Ericssion getting only 1/3 of the money but SAAB gets 2/3 as mentioned in the above reports. It is not Erieye radar that is important but the SAAB TECH sensors and communication and self protection suite that is more important.
Erm…..you just said Erieye is a lower cost option when compared to Phalcon.
how is it low cost option?
That is usually an issue with forward AFBs and not bases deep inside the country. But given IAF/PAF dynamics I suppose it makes sense. Not an issue with IAF though.
it is issue with both aircraft flying for deep bases will have less staying power and will show its pattern earlier to other side.
uh huh. And that’s an advantage just how?
quicker turn around time. which option will u chose. system giving its optimum performance at low altitude against high altitude. not to mention alot of maintainance issue with 4 engine aircraft. it is not like transport that u can shift system from one aircraft to another. once there is problem u will have big down time and loss of capability. so alot platforms with only antennas are better solution with all the expensive hardware and trained personal on the ground.
Yeah. And if you do not understand the advantage of having your brain and eye in the sky then I cannot help you here. Perhaps a little research will help.
so what is tha advantage?
star492007 is when they start flight test , Till they sort out all the bugs and a production variant comes out it would take another 2 years again subject to funding availability , I dont know how they can offer an AESA for the MRCA , Most likely it will be the Bars-29.
IAF is not likely to sign MRCA deal before 2008 with first aircraft delivery around 2010 so it is possible that by that time it is fully operational and MIG is getting contracts here and there that will keep it afloat.
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