star49Why not? Surely we’d be better off dealing with them politically and economically than dealing with them militarily.
how u deal with them Politically/economically that i ask?. Just in Iran case u have to liberate alot of people just like in Irak in different parts of Middleast or let them do the job without backing the other side. there is alot of other things involved. and how can socialist/leftist. countries fit in capitalist world view?.
I don’t see how expanding relations with some of the biggest consumer bases in the world would provide no benefit.
how would u expand relations with them? what product or service u want to sell to them that they either cannot produce cheaply or buy it from EU/SK/Japan with better quality. and they have totally different geopolitical priorities. u have to make alot of compromises.
Opposite?
just take example of Mexico. what do u think does US needs Mexico more or Mexico needs US more in 2006?. there are three constant things. debt/interest/inflation. that can kill any free market economy. and in order to keep the first two downs u have to keep the third one down.so u need cheap products/natural resources and personal services. who do u think will do farming for u or cleaning or construction with those wages? certainly not legal people with all employer expenses.
Why not? It’s not like they want all that much to do with us anyway. How can we be faulted for giving them what they want?
again what kind of reduce relations? first explain this. EU/Japan/SK products are more popular in US than the otherway US products in those countries even if they are expensive.
u are going basically against free market enterprize.
Eh?
I think u live in dream world. thats why u put impractical solutions and logic.
star49If we were to rewrite US foreign policy, it should resemble this:
-Renewed relations with Iran, Cuba, and North Korea
on what basis?
-Expanded relations with Russia, China, and India
u will gain nothing from this in long term or even in the medium term.
-Eliminate relations with Mexico, Colombia, Israel, Formosa, Venezuela, and Pakistan
u can do nothing with those countries. in fact the opposite is true.
-Reduced relations with the EU and Japan
for what reasons and benefit.
-No US troops in South Korea or Japan
-Fewer troops in the Middle East
-No US troops in Europe
It seems stealth fighter is in front Mig.
star49If we were to rewrite US foreign policy, it should resemble this:
-Renewed relations with Iran, Cuba, and North Korea
on what basis?
-Expanded relations with Russia, China, and India
u will gain nothing from this in long term or even in the medium term.
-Eliminate relations with Mexico, Colombia, Israel, Formosa, Venezuela, and Pakistan
u can do nothing with those countries. in fact the opposite is true.
-Reduced relations with the EU and Japan
for what reasons and benefit.
-No US troops in South Korea or Japan
-Fewer troops in the Middle East
-No US troops in Europe
It seems stealth fighter is in front Mig.
star49Actually, they should have moved back into their homes in Europe after the Nazis were taken care of. They should have gotten no special treatment whatsoever. Why Britain felt it was a good idea to throw them in with a bunch of Muslims is beyond me. That was an even stupider move than Chamberlain’s attempted appeasement of Hitler.
what kind of special treatment u are referring to? and what has Great Britain done? ensuring that Ottman Turks does not colonize Middleast any more. or what do u think Ottmans would have done if that OIL discovered and explored at there time? there is a reason that Israel has special relations with Turkey.
And there are million of Middleastern/North African people moved to EU. so whats wrong some people move from EU to Middleast?
star49What is to guarantee Israel or the US or China or Russia or the UK or France or Pakistan or India wont do that? Handing out nuclear weapons is a very drastic step… has Iran ever directly supported an enemy of the US to detonate any type of bomb on US soil? (Can you say the asme about Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?). Perhaps bombing Iran is the only reason they might even consider doing such a thing?
thats kind a true. that 1977 military coup In Pak was brought by religious parties and every body knows who supported them and what happened after that. Madrassa culture and Soviet invasion in 1979. Infact the thugs were brought from kabul university in 1973 and was duly mentioned by than Soviet Pm Alexi-Kosigyn visit to Pak after that. but who want to dig that deep into history.
star49The Iranians would be the last country in the region to rock the boat in Iraq at the moment. The Shia muslims in Iraq mostly follow Iranian mullahs. If the US gets its way and Iraq becomes a democracy then it is majority rules, and the Shia are the majority. The only reason the SHia haven’t risen up against the outsiders is because they are smart enough to know if they bide their time they will get power handed to them on a plate. Do something stupid like bomb Iran and they might decide they have waited long enough. Several claim the leader of Iran is mad and wants to destroy Israel… what makes you think he will sit back and accept a US or Israeli raid on his country and not attempt in any way to retaliate? These are the guys who thought human wave attacks were the way to go in war. They get volunteers…
Iran already controls iraq and afghanistan thats not the issue and they have put nuclear pistol on every country on that region. the issue is the the control of whole middleast oil now and cleaning the whole terrorism mess.
Prince Saud repeated apprehensions he made about Iran in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations on Tuesday. He said Tehran was increasingly interfering in Iraq by providing money and weapons to Shiites in the country. He also voiced his concern that Iran might renege on its pledge to support a nuclear-free Middle East.”This is a very dangerous situation,” he said, “a very threatening situation.”
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/article…237,curpg-1.cms
Putin, having told the US off in no uncertain terms. Russia is reasserting itself in Central Asia trying to wipe out the American stain, and in the business of selling reactors to Iran
star49But then perhaps the Israeli leader actually thinks the same as the Iranian leader but can’t say anything publicly because of his position. If Israel was in Irans position it would be making similar tough talk. It currently has unquestioned US support, and money, and nuclear weapons. It doesn’t need to verbally threaten… it already actually threatens with its capability.
Iran has no confrontation with Israel. Israel didnot support Saddam/taliban nore Iran shares any religion,border, ethinicity with Palestine. but it is politically convenient to make such statements but the intended audience is some one else and effect is the same for all in the region.
Rubbish. It has built rather more nuclear warheads in the last decade and a half than Iran has made.
They are introducing Kh-102s, and Topols and TOPOL-Ms and now naval Bulavas. You don’t think they wont be fitted with warheads do you?If the Iranians had any Nuclear warheads they would say so… once you are in the nuclear club the plans turn from invasion to diplomacy.. ask NK.
this does not prove that they are spending more money on nuclear industry than Iran. Russia is more productive because of its experiance. and those things just now going into operational service. Iran figure in past 17 years will be in $150 to $200b the same as Arabs spent on conventional arms. Iran isnt negotiating it is merely giving threats. and this thing is well understood. Russian bombers that went to Indian ocean exercises in 2003 went through Iran and they were looking at Middleastern targets not Indian ocean and that show of force was critical in releasing those diplomats in qatar.
Russia has every right to sell arms to Iran’
MOSCOW: Russia has every right to sell arms to Iran, its defence minister said on Wednesday, responding to mounting criticism of a $1 billion deal announced last week.
The United States, calling Iran a “state sponsor of terror”, said selling weapons to the Islamic Republic did not help the Middle East. “This deal, this contract is absolutely legitimate. Like it or not, it’s our affair. There are plenty of things we don’t like either,” Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov said in comments shown on NTV television
star49Star49, stop talking nonsense. Iran has neither the trained manpower nor the money to spend as muh as russia or china. Their IRBM’s are in no way even comparable to the ICBM’s that russia had 3-4 decades ago. The very fact that they had to acquire some parts from pakistan which are old rip offs of the 60’s nuke design from china tells us that they aren’t all that advanced in the field. They are trying to develop independently but the nonsense you just mentioned is beyond crap.
Read my statement again. I Said Now
Russia after Cold has not built a new nuclear reactor for itself nor it has built new nuclear weopons large scale.
and u can see that from there budget figures for nuclear industry and defense budget.
just one or two years they have started tests on more long range weopons.
and that is one of the reasons that Iran carries 60s and 70s era US weopons and couldnot pay for S-300 and new Flankers because they spent too much on Nuke/missile industry.
Sources in the military industrial complex reported that in 2003, Iran proposed Russia establish comprehensive air defense including S-300 PMU systems for guarding of the nuclear power station in Bushehr to be built by Russian specialists. Tor systems had to defend Bushehr from attacks of anti-radar missiles
However, Iran failed to allocate the sum necessary for creation of this sophisticated system and the parties agreed on a compromise in the form of supplies of Tor systems and radars. According to a source in the industry producing air defense systems, such a comprehensive system could cost “more than $2 billion but it is impossible to name the precise sum because nobody has ever fulfilled such difficult tasks.”
Vedomosti, December 05, 2005
star49If the US attacked Iran’s nuclear facilities at MOST the Russians would b!tch and moan about it. Maybe China would too but that’s about it. The US has no desire whatsoever to start a war there and Iran’s not worth starting a war with the US to Russia or China.
this is a flawed argument. Iran isnt Cuba that it needs other powers protection nor does it needs some cheap parts from black market. It is after building its own ICBMs and probably the world largest nuclear building program (much bigger than russia interms of money and manpower now). and it will not be surprizing that they are bankrolling the new russian long range missile program.
what Russia/China is doing is selling the knowledge and factories to build all this quickest in possible time. after that the colonization of entire Middleast will begin and reparation from that OIL money will further boost it.
Russian nuclear energy head interviewed on Iran
Iran’s nuclear research facilities[Presenter] Perhaps you have information on the degree of development of research facilities in the area of nuclear energy and nuclear power engineering in Iran? To what extent they [interrupted by Rumyantsev].
[Rumyantsev] I must say that they have rather serious experimental facilities. As a physicist, all my active scientific life I personally worked using [changes tack] – at nuclear research reactors. I worked in solid state physics using dispersion of neutrons. And such a nuclear research reactor – it is situated in Tehran. It has been built there by the USA. This is a very good instrument to carry out experiments in solid state physics, chemistry, biology, nuclear medicine, nuclear physics. And there are appropriate equipment, appropriate installations. Therefore, in this respect, this is a very advanced nuclear research centre, if one is to talk about the role of nuclear science and technology.
[Presenter] And in which countries are Iranian experts getting training?
[Rumyantsev] Iranian experts are studying in many countries. That is, there is no – I cannot – I do not have precise statistical data, but from my understanding there are Iranian students in all developed countries where the education process is at a high level.
[Presenter] Including in our country?
[Rumyantsev] And in our country they have studied in a number of institutes. I don’t have the latest information as to how many of them have graduated, but at least, Iranian students studied here
Source: Ekho Moskvy radio, Moscow, in Russian 30 Sep 05
Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing told an EU team headed by British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw at the United Nations that sending the Iran issue to the Security Council could be counter-productive, a European participant said.
The diplomat quoted Li as saying that kicking the issue from Vienna to New York “could encourage Iran to take extreme measures” and would not be constructive. “The Russians are blocking the resolution,” said a diplomat from one of the EU “big three” countries — France, Britain and Germany — on condition of anonymity. “They aren’t moving at all, not one centimeter. They don’t even want to talk about the resolution. They don’t want to propose any amendments. Nothing,” the diplomat said
star49The issue is quite simple here ,Iran has a Nuclear program and has been billigerent , Intl Community and US wants Iran to stop building N-weapons. Its a matter of discussion and many options are on table , Iran has the choice to accept one of the many options or fact UN sanction or punitive strikes on its whole range of N-assets.
No one wants to fight with Iran , Even its closest allay Russia is trying its best to avoid confrontation and has placed option of enriching uranium at Russia which Iran rejected.
If all optons fail and if US decides to strike Iran Nuclear assets , No amount of S-300 , TOR,Mig-29 or what ever they have can stop it , US has the Will and Means to strike assets in Iran ,But every one is trying its best to avoid such a situation
May be Iran will accept either the Europe , Russia or UN option and the whole thing gets avoided.
u dont have any idea what u are talking about. Pak which gets Arab support and US money chose to side with Iran on this issue. so do u think that Pak gov is stupid or they know something more?
and regarding UN sanctions. IAEA cannot even refer the issue to UN. all is just for public consumption. China has sign for next 25 years with Iran. and they have enough economic clout now to ignore the rest of the world for its own interests. Same is the case with Russia. Russia is not Soviet Union where 15 republics bureaucracy and communist ideology trumpts self interests. they have to keep the oil at maximum prices and give the decisive punch to those who harm them in the past. No country in that neighborhood has spine to stand up to Iran. ever heared of any negative comment from those around against Iran.
star49Actually it took about 12 years and extreme economic sanctions. The No-Fly zones over Iraq were a way of maintaining US military pressure over Iraq. The Iraqi A-D network suffered continuous bombing from US fighters in the period the No-Fly zones operated. Surely this would’ve been disruptive to maintaining any sotr of integrated A-D network.
Even more disruptive were the economic sanctions. Other than some upgrades, the Iraqi A-D network didn’t really see any new equipment introduced between 1991 and 2003.
the point is not just about AD network. Iran usually burns countries from inside. just look at spectacular defeat of taliban in first mazar sharif offensive. the defeat of that islamist in tajikistan civial war and that patch up of russia with ruling group. and that Northern alliance is still under iranian influence. once they put a grip on something very difficult to break it.
Irak and the rest the countries will face similar fate.
they are not praising each other for some small reasons.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050915/41406938.html
He echoed Putin’s thoughts about Russian-Iranian partnership. “A powerful Russia is Iran’s best friend and a powerful Iran is one of Russia’s best partners,” he said
star49What, we used every single T-LAM already? Not. All you’re doing is trying to justify why, in a dream world, the Iranian military wouldn’t be crused by us. Just like everyone else has been recently. We’re not talking about invasion, remember, we’re just talking about making their entire AD network disappear overnight.
surely. it took 20 days for Irak and couple of months build up before that not to mention close to hundred of billions dollars. so by that time what do u think what will they do?
Russia is not that stupid. And even if they were, the stuff you qupted there in no way shape or form supports that idea. All he is doing is complaining about the US-Israel double standard. On this front I agree with them totally. If Israel can have nukes, why not Iran? At the very least, it gives us an excuse to melt their country to radioactive slag when they inevitably give one to terrorists and they blow it up in the USA. On a more serious note, the Israeli double-standard thing really does need to stop. They constantly do things (PLAAF Phalcon attempted deal, for example) which prove that they are not worthy of any US support, or at least nowhere near the level they’ve been getting. Were the decision mine to make they’d be cut off and isolated Cuba style.
u havent seen the russia nuclear industry chief interview where he is mentioning alot of iranian students studying in russia on this particular field. this is comparision of Israel-Iran is wrong. one is democracy and other is theocracy. and Soviet Union/Russia hasnt turn the Saudis(and there supporters) into radio active dust despite past 30 years of terrorism against them. there are alot other issue in this subject.
star49that is what some people dont understand..An initial barage of Hoards of Tomohawks and high conc. of SO weaponry is very capable in overwhelming the air-defences of the opponent..Couple that with an initial barage of B-2’s/B-1’s and the buff aswell as the F/a-22 will work that one out.!!
and u need hundreds of billions of dollars for initial barrage which US dont have it.
just look who is hinting to whom. this convential weopons deals are actually hidden payments for non-convential weopons.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20051201/42283487.html
MOSCOW, December 1 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s most senior military officer offered sharp criticism Thursday of what he considered to be a case of double standards in how the United States approached nuclear security issues.
Chief of the General Staff Yury Baluyevsky said: “The U.S. has made demands that a number of countries’ nuclear programs should be completely transparent. On the other hand, the U.S. turns a blind eye to the fact that Israel has for a long time … had a significant nuclear ****nal.”
He pointed to similar double standards in U.S. cooperation with Russia in other spheres, including control of missile technologies. According to Baluyevsky, the U.S. not only uses its ****nal to defend its interests but also as a form of leverage to put pressure on rivals on the market for this form of weaponry.
He said the Russian Defense Ministry had a serious approach to bilateral and multilateral cooperation with the United States against the proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.
star49just look at the cost and time line with no Brahamos.
Scorpene submarine deal to cost 4.11 bn USD: Govt
New Delhi, Nov 24 (PTI) Government said today the deal for manufacture of six French Scorpene Class Submarine in India would cost the country’s exchequer Rs 18,798 crores (4.11 bn USD) and the first submarine would be ready for induction by 2012.
Giving the details for the first time, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed the Rajya Sabha in a written reply that of the total sum, Rs 3,553 crore (789 million USD) would be an outgo as taxes. Earlier, estimates had said the submarines deal would cost 3.5 bn USD.
In reply to another question, he said no decision has been taken to redesignate the Military Nursing Service (MNS) Cadre. The issue is under examination by the Army headquarters which was studying the report of a 10-memmber Committee that recommended redesignation of the MNS, he said.
On the long-awaited demand of one-rank-one-pension for ex-servicemen, the Minister said the Group of Ministers had finalised its recommendations and the decision of the Cabinet was awaited.
Referring to devastating earthquake in Jammu and Kashmir, Mukherjee said 45 army personnel, including an officer and a JCO, had been killed.
Of these, he said 38 personnel were killed in the earthquake which occurred on October eight and the remaining in landslides and tremors that followed.
star49IN already operates atleast 2 Foxtrot , which has meen modified with DRDO designed Sonars and Control System.
The fact that even its closest allay went for a Agosta90B design in late nineties instead of opting for the Chinese one dosent speak well about its capability , Infact all the subs designed by chinese are for themself and none was ever exported , Inspite of Numbers and Economy being in its advantage , with every one opting for a West or a Russian design
Agusta 90B agreement was signed in 1993. negotiations were held early 1989-90 or even before that. It takes alteast 5 years of negotiation/evaluation before anything is signed.
I doubt anyone has anything to offer at that period of time with price and technolgy transfer so late 90s does not come into play.
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