star49LOL… IAF wants a familiar a/c in return for nothing which GOI is looking for return benefits.. Look at the Gripen for Chicken deal with Thailand.. Thats how here after most of the deals will be done.. If we think about political and financial gains (economic) only two contenders stand tall… F-16 and F-18…. I am not sure what french and Russians are offering other than co-production and tech transfer..
IMHO, co-production and tech transfer are not going to elevate the Indian defense companies capabilities other than may be assembling and some machining.. If u need real tech transfer, then India need is new materials and state of the art electronic components..
So the competition should be more on what India gets in return
Mirage 2000- 5 – Old A/c, to be phased out by French airforce shortly, what kind of return India get – moving the M2k production line to India ?Mig-29MKI – might get all the goodies from the ruskies when compared with others… may be more closer co-operation… return.. continious supply of spares – no sale to Pakistan – LOL… pakistan always have the back door in Ukraine..
Gripen – I am not sure whether in India, chicken is available for export ????
F-16 / F-18 — Whole new ball game especially with the newly found ‘well behaved nuclear power ” title.
Guys … add more ammo if needed …
i think we are discussing what is best for IAF. right?
I dont think M2K is phased out any time soon. and why spend $10 to $15b to gain some political and financial gain when u can spent that much money directly to buy french nuke civilian tech for energy on which they are most proficient as a country. (74% of there energy).
F-16 and F-18 will be too costly and too time consuming to induct without any big advantage over M2K.
star49Because he was specifically asked about China and India and China’s project is farther along than India’s.
Also, consider this; the HJT-39 will most likely use the Saturn’s AL-55 engine. There is no chance that Russia will let India use a Russian engined plane to compete against a Russian plane. Hence, the no rival part. Russia will not allow the HJT-39 to compete against Yak-130 or Mig-AT as long as Russian engines power the HJT-39. 😉
so if they are powering it. it means they have also idea about its capability.
russians already ruled Mig-29 competing against FC-1 (there is time lag in that case also) but they havent said that about HJT-39.
there is also Yak assistance to L-15.
star49Surely, but why compare a plane that is about to hit serial production with one that is barely on paper? There will be a time lag of about 5-10 yrs b/w Yak-130 serial prod and that of HJT-39. The time factor alone make the two aircrafts non-rivals, in terms of marketing.
surely but why he is mentioning the other trainer which hasnt flown yet ? there will be a time lag in that case also.
star49Of course the HJT-36 is not a rival to the Yak-130 :rolleyes:
surely he is not that naive to confuse IJT and AJT 😉
star49I think this should put to rest the myth created by someone that MKI MTOW is smaller than MKK because it uses composites. also put to rest his theory of increase in MKI engine thrust. the new Su-35 with composites and higher thrust will be in league of EF.
The point is that the controllable thrust vector and additional aerodynamic surfaces increase the weight of the warplane. As a result, the Indian modification is heavier than the Chinese model by over one ton
Designers implement these ideas in the Su-35 fighter. The warplane is equipped with new radar, missiles, communication complex, indicators and engines. The Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant intends to prepare the necessary documents concerning this fighter by the end of the year. This will be a transition model to the generation five fighter.
Designers intend to increase the maximum speed and range of flight. The weight of the fighter will decrease by a third thanks to new materials. As a result, the fighter will be able to take on more fuel and weapons.
There are plans to increase the thrust of the engine. Several flying laboratories currently test the AL-31 engines created by Saturn and the Salyut enterprise (Moscow). Specialists of the Defense Ministry prefer Salyut’s engine. It is possible to increase the thrust thanks to larger fans. This is a very interesting solution for the military from a financial point of view. In addition, the new elements of the engines promise high reliability and low maintenance costs.
Source: Voyenno-Promyshlenny Kuryer, No. 26, July 20-26, 2005
star49F-18 is only worth considering for carrier operations. JSF is unknown and expensive at this point for cooproduction. u have to look at ur own industry is it capable of obsorbing and reproducing the advance tech when opinions are like this.
Oleg Demchenko, general director and chief design engineer, Yakovlev Design Bureau
Question: What effect might the Indian and Chinese project have on the YAK-130 market?
Oleg Demchenko: The Chinese project involves creating a new supersonic aircraft. As for the Indian project, we do not consider it a rival. On the other hand, we are prepared to cooperate with India in creating new training-combat aircraft.
star49techincally they were not as such but they were advertized in media at that time that they can do. but this is moot point.
he is more referring to the fact that they were not good for scuds at that time so the the newer versions may be not good for latest BM missiles.
star49couldnot find better place. 18 minute response time is too slow.
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/july-2005/26/index1.php
To a question if the US sale of patriot missiles to India would cause nuclear imbalance in the region, Musharraf said Pakistan had missiles, which were far more superior than those India was getting from the US. The patriot missile has 15 to 18 minutes response time while the one in possession of Pakistan took five minutes for the purpose, he argued. President Musharraf also tried to establish the superiority of scud missiles over the patriots, saying the former performed better than the latter during the Gulf war.
star49$60m F-18e unit price is based on 200 plus aircraft contract which will likely to rise substantially if 126 are ordered.
$60m M2K9 are based on 60 aircraft order (30 new, 30 upgrade) so if 126 are ordered the unit price is likely to go down and further down if 50 IAF Mirages are also upgraded.
i dont know why F-18 is considered when F-16e is better in every respect and has lower price.
so it is M2K9 vs F-16e. (Meteor vs AIM-120D)
i dont think that qatar will materliaze any time soon. reason is high price of small batch.
star49I answered this one before. Technical assistance doesn’t automatically equal integration. Example: Taiwan received US technical assistance/technology transfer for the F-CK-1 / TC-2 project, that doesn’t mean you could automatically put TC-2 on F-16 or AMRAAM on F-CK-1.
Read the quote again, AGAT said nothing about PL-12. The comment about “conditions of confidentiality and information” is also a good reminder to everyone.
Russia has refused S-300 missiles integration with Western radars for a certain country (It is in public) so why would they allow supposed to be russain missile integrated to chinese radar? when they are in tough negotiation with another party on IPR issue. and any thing that shows russians are proliferating technologies without official granting of license or giving free hand for upgrades when it is not allowing other party to do so considerable weakens there sale potential and other side have raised serious issues about this thing by threatening to go western or not signing energy deals and also they have strong presence in that country media so anything will come out in public very quickly. recently there is some changes in there policies but this missile episide is too old to reflect any unofficial assistance.
“We will not give away such high technology without signing IPR
agreement, for free things have changed. Russia is a different country, and there is a need for taking cognizance of this reality
star49LOL you dont tell me what I need to know and then you wont tell me what I didnt ask you for!!! Now thats logic from the great city of lahore….
But I dont see $4.5B anywhere!!!! I dont think the russian will tell the Indian that our wage rate has risen so you have to pay us more…if they agree on the dollar value of the contract then the onus is on the supplier to deliver the product as per specs…even if there is 1000% inflation. But you wont know this stuff….I am sure you even get your green paint from China.
.
i just laugh at ur logic. they have exactly told Indian delegation the same thing that due rising costs they have to double the price when they wanted follow up order for frigates at previous prices.
i am afraid they same applies to Mig but even more so it. that $4.5B is on conservative side.
since u have been debunked on MKI price, engine thrust, weopons, ownership of R&D for Bars. i dont think any crediblity is left in ur opinion.
star49Oracle ji:
I dont wish to debate you…its sad just sad that the admins have let you back on since you dont seem to have learned anything from your sabbatical.What is this $4.5B #? When did India sign a deal for the Mig-29M? It would be nice to see some respectable source.
where i claimed that India has signed the deal?. It is just offer price.
Finally (as is always typical of you) you dont seem to understand english…I dont I mentioned the word “inflation”, I am talking about fluctuation in the exchange rates.
surely i understand but exchange rate is not the only thing that matters. ever heard of there 20% wage growth and skyrocketing metal prices and no hedging against this by RSK MIG. labor and metals are the most important compontnents in aircraft prices. the 3 ships that India bought recently if it signs again for the same the price will double. this thing is alot more expensive than MKI deal of the past.
Please dont bother replying unless you have something that specfically states that India is buying Mig-29M for $4.5B.
India has not decided to buy MIG at this point rather Russia has decided to sell them. and they think it is better to sell license rather than building new fighters. i will not show where i read that 😉
star49Oracle ji if you basing these calculations on some special branch of mathematics (which I cant mention but everyone knows) then so be it. But if you are pulling these # based on the Mig-29K deal then you would be patently wrong (again).
nope i am not wrong. u are not reading closely into russian affairs. MKI license cost $3.3B for 140 aircraft and add to that infrastructure cost. MIG-29M is $4.5B just for license.
The MKI cost as much as $33-35m (it will fluctuate depending on which exchange rate you wish to apply to an INR transaction), the HAL MKI are supposed be close to $30m….so how do you get an -29M costing $45m? No no please dont answer you will blind me with your logic and math…which we know is truly out of this world…..
it does not depend on Indian inflation but on russian inflation figures which are running over 10% and so is the cost of capital for MIG. u cannot build MIG-29M in year 2010 at HAL for less than $45M. that this is for sure.
star49The assumption of no Russian assistance on PL-12 is also only a possibility. Without knowing the actual discussion/negotiation between Russia and China and without knowing the actual current status of PL-12 and radars, there is no “supporting evidence” for asserting no Russian involvement either.
i dont know that PL-12/SD-10 is same missile or different but the fact that Russia has not publicly said anything about missile hanging from FC-1 at different export air shows dont give credence to ur theory.
Bvr missile is not trival matter much more than a engine. and russian proudly display there contributions (for some crude business reasons) to any program. just take the case of Brahmos where the otherside cannot export it without russian permission.
star49i doubt u can build or buy MIG-29M with Bars (which the only radar on theory can match RDY-2 performance. otherwise russian radars have lower mbtf compred to western) and tvc for less than $45m. even MIG-29K with less expensive radar cost $43m and that deal was 1.5 years ago and since than rouble alone has appreciated by 10% due to oil. MKI deal was signed 5 to 8 years ago and has no bearing on any future deals.
Sign In
