star49yes this can be done but Meteor buying in this way will be more expensive. surely they will be interested in selling the license for down graded version and recoup all the development cost and seeing India penchant of buying licenses this is not hard to fathom that they would not offer it.
star49Umm the LCA is/will be a multirole replacement for the Mig-21…not for MKI…so when you say “not upto wester fighters” you need to further qualify your inference. Not upto Grippen? EF2000? Rafale? F-16 D? etc?
this for the first time acknowledgement that it is not upto Gripen standards despite sharing engine and composites.
star49Saudis are known for buying friends and enemies alike.
so u cannot count anything out. certainly much bigger problem.
star49My earlier question still stands, why is money being invested in TVC engines when it was claimed that FCS tweaks would give the a non TVC aircraft equivalent capabilities as a TVC equipped a/c?
there new Su-35 is without canards and tvc. only the AL-31FM-5 is the fifth generation engine.
star49money is not the issue for them anymore. they can do it all by themselves. problems look more in technical sense. this kind of project usually requires commitment from single top authority which Putin is providing. it is difficult to achieve this in democracy.
star49The US will have the non modifaction of F-16’s sold to Pakistan in the contract of the deal.
And also i expect the contract to ensure the plane cant be given to China. Remember, China got an F-16 from Paksitan earlier and tried to RE it (but in vain)….in the 1980’s in exchange for ballistic millile tech know how.
quite baseless assumptions. China bough Su-27 before break up soviet union. so it is more than likely that have access to flankers from 1990 alteast. so what they gain by looking at non-bvr, no glass cockpit, only 23,000lbs engine, all metal analogue fbw F-16 with no HMS. It is better to learn from bvr equiped plane with higher thrust engine. if thats what u mean from reverse enginering. J-10 does not share anything with F-16. from engine to cockpit to aerodynamics.
they got Su-30MKK from 2000 which i believe alteast equal to F-16MLU in tech. and since they havent ordered more Su-30 after J-10 production so it should be alteast one step ahead in tech for Su-30MK.
so sale of advance block 52 to PAF will not compromis US tech at this stage of time.
this kind of decisions are not made based on what people in media writes or card carrying members will think about it but rather on supplying right amount of capital for those who matters.
star49Star49, But India is paying in hard dollar currency… not like Pak where it is a part of aid ?..
u are confusing two separate deals of PAF with one of IAF. PAF is trying to get as many old F-16s for free and in turn want to pay for the new ne. in reality the old F-16 are more important than the newer one. so it is two deals.
India wants to buy license and production know how so u should expect to pay huge for some one else developed R&D.
star49think the outcome will depend on IAF F-18e order. – why?
Can u eloborate please.
because i doubt us will allow the version PAF wants. the only way it is going to go through is F-16/F-18 for IAF/PAF are presented as peace dividend.
star49This essentially proves my point that earlier MIG-29K deal was quite cheap to IN and they are now taking advantage of that again but i highly doubt MIG can provide at same price this time they will insist on license.
Indian Navy Wants More MiG-29Ks
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHIThe Indian Navy has asked the Defence Ministry to buy 14 additional MiG-29K multirole aircraft from Russia to equip the service’s long-planned aircraft carrier, dubbed the Air Defense Ship (ADS), now under construction.
The government here last year concluded a deal to buy 16 MiG-29Ks for the Admiral Gorshkov, the used Russian carrier being refitted for the Indian Navy. The Navy wants negotiations for the additional fighters to begin now to take advantage of terms used in the first MiG-29K deal.
A senior Indian Defence Ministry official confirmed that the Navy’s request for additional aircraft for the ADS has been received, but a decision on the price the ministry is willing to pay has not been made.
The first MiG-29K aircraft deal was approved by the previous government on Jan. 20, 2004.
India initially had doubts that the MiGs would be delivered on schedule because they were still on the drawing board when the deal was signed. India will be the first buyer outside Russia for the MiG-29K.
The Defence Ministry official, however, said Russia has promised to adhere to the delivery schedule for aircraft to equip the Gorshkov. Deliveries are to begin in 2007.
The Gorshkov is being refitted for the Indian Navy at SevMash Enterprise, Severodvinsk, Russia, and will be delivered in 2009.
An executive here of Russian arms export agency Rosoboronexport said that serial production of the MiG-29Ks is on schedule and all 16 planes will be delivered by 2009.
The 2004 contract includes 12 single-seat MiG-29Ks and four twin-seat MiG-29KUB trainers, as well as training of pilots and technical personnel, delivery of simulators and spare parts, and organization of aircraft maintenance in India.
The contract is valued at $740 million, with the planes costing around $31.5 million each. The overall price tag also covers the cost of integration, the engine and other equipment such as electronic warfare suites and ground support systems and armament.
A senior Indian Navy official said the service is contemplating ordering more MiG-29Ks in the future due to slow development of the naval version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
The Navy official said the ADS is designed to operate a mix of aircraft, including the Russian Mig-29K, the naval version of the LCA, Sea Harrier, Advanced Light Helicopter and anti-submarine and maritime reconnaissance Kamov Ka-31 helicopters.
The ADS is to be delivered to the Navy by India’s state-owned Cochin Shipyard by early 2012
star49well I respect the PLANs new capabilities including perhaps this varyag but they or anyone else are quite a few decades from threatening the US dominance of the worlds sea lanes. the US has to suffer a period of prolonged economic stagnation(decline) causing defence cutbacks that force the retirement of many many principal combatants before others get to play in that league.
I dont think ur analysis is that accurate. if going by recent defense reports. China defense budget is closer to $100B. which seems quite possible considering there recent tax revenues. it will translate into roughly $300B in PPP terms as wages and raw materials available to Chinese forces are quite cheap compared to US forces.(where every thing is commerical contract). and china also has cheap off the shelf access to russian tech and raw materials which further lowers there cost down. bases and ships are not spread around the world which further lowers there cost structure. remember pentagon procurement budget is not more than $78b for new weopons which Chinese can easily match with in a year or two.
I think US and China will balance out in 5 years if current trends continues.
star49i think the outcome will depend on IAF F-18e order.
F 16 fate undecided yet
by Zahid Ghani
New York July 30: Meeting of Pakistan and US Airforce to decide about sale of F 16 postponed for August 7 tentatively after the Americans held to agree to Pakistani demands of mounting the desired radar’s and missiles systems.Pakistani side was to be headed by deputy chief of air staff shehzad chaudhry alongwith Operation chief, and Director falcon project of Operational research development, the meeting was scheduled for Friday, July 29.
Indian Airforce is equipped with AGIL, Reactor and also have BBV Beyond Visual Range Missiles, with Air surveillance technology. Pakistan requires frequency to match with Indians, if not the same somewhat similar to technology.
The US National Security Council NSC , the approving authority have so far held to approve Pakistan desire, despite US President Bush assurance to balance both the rivals. US have stopped and Pakistan decision not taken yet.
If by August F 16 issue not cleared by NSC. National Security Council the matter of F 16 will be delayed through year 2006 as Congress will go for recess and next month Pakistan having TRI High Rate exercise of the three forces, Army, Navy and Airforce together.
Any deal over $25 million or any item under IEAR International traffic and arms register list go to Congress for Approval through NSC,the congress approves or rescind. In case it is on hold with the congress for 90 days it is cleared and passed. Congress Vote only comes up if anti lobbyist becomes active.Al Congress procedure starts after LOA letter of offer and Acceptance. The F 16 issue to be submitted to Congress after NSC approves and Pakistan Ministry of Defense signs the letter.
In President Bush approved F 16 case after the approval from Congress the F 16 would be delivered to Pakistan in 2 and a half year time.
Pakistan will have meeting with US Air force USAFIA US AIRFORCE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, and DSCA Defense Security Cooperation Agency part of Pentagon will decide the case.
Pakistan maintaining their position having equipped their F 16 with desired systems will pay $42 to $43 million for one F 16. The contract of 75 F 16 will cost Pakistan roughly $3billion to be paid in 3 to 5 years.Previously in 80’s Pakistan purchased the same aircraft for $ 18 to $ 21 million each.
Indians while signing for such heavy equipment’s with western powers put the clause in their agreements “not to sell to Pakistan”. Indians generally sign conditional contracts. Having larger quantity contracts Indians have leverage to put such conditions.
Signing of LOA by Pakistan will be a political decission if Pakistan’s demand not fulfilled said a senior diplomat .He said government of Pakistan to boost of Pak-US relations might opt for geting any catagory F 16 too. He said however Pakistan airforce will blankly refuse to accept F16 without their desired instruements . F16 will be a DUBBA (Box) without proper radar and arms technology.
The Bush administration has approved an initial shipment to Pakistan of two F-16 fighter jets on Friday. Two refurbished F 16 is to boost Pakistan’s fleet of 32 F 16 acquired by Pakistan before the US Congress cutt off sales in 1990 over Pakistan’s nuclear programe
star49I agree there is no point for opening a thread for this. about the topic Russian has complained before that there fighters does not get favorable coverage in indian media.
star49pakistan could well use a morale booster after weeks of hostile international media coverage over its culpability in the london bombing plots.
reread the statement. it is downpayment from US.
The Bush administration has approved an initial shipment to Pakistan of two F-16 fighter jets, a down payment on what is expected to be a larger sale of newer U.S. fighters over Indian objections, congressional sources briefed on the plan said on Friday
No deal has been signed so far.
By Sharon Weinberger
LE BOURGET, FRANCE–The U.S. government and Pakistan are in
negotiations for a variety of different proposals to modernize the South Asian ally’s air force, but the number of fighters involved in the sale is far from clear, according to a senior official.“They’ve put forward a new request for new airplanes,” said Air Force
Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, the head of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA), in a meeting with reporters at the recent Paris Air Show. But, he added, “I’m not sure I have a clear understand yet of what their total requirement is.”The high-profile sale of fighter aircraft to Pakistan marks a
significant turnaround in U.S. policy. The Pentagon earlier this year reported a possible sale of 18 Lockheed Martin [LMT] F-16 aircraft in the annual Javitz report to Congress.Since that time, however, the Pakistani government has asked for even
more aircraft. “They did ask for up to 55 new aircraft,” Kohler said of the
latest request. “Whether that’s really what they want is not as clear as I
thought it was.”Kohler said that he had “several conversations” with Pakistani official
at the air show, and was trying to better understand how many aircraft the
military actually wanted, and how many the country could afford. A number of different options are now on the table, he said.Under discussion now are a variety of options, including midlife
upgrades on Pakistan’s current fleet of F-16s, the sale of excess European F-16s, or the transfer of so-called “bone yard” aircraft from the United States. “I truly believe they’re really looking for a mix,” Kohler said.New aircraft would be good news for Lockheed Martin, which hopes the
sale could keep open the F-16 production line beyond its 2008 forecast
closure. But Kohler pointed out that even if Pakistan were able to sign a fighter deal this year, the first aircraft wouldn’t be ready until late 2008 or 2009.In the meantime, DSCA, which manages foreign military sales for the
Pentagon, is holding off on notifying Congress until the final number and mix of aircraft is worked out. “We have a little more homework to do on what’s
affordable and what makes sense,” he said.
star49here is some thing about RD-33MK for MIG-29K. JonS is correct on this one they increased the non-afterburning thrust by 400KG (1000lbs)
1 June 2005
Military TechnologyInterview With Mr. Alexander S. Novikov, General Director, Chernyshev Moscow MachineBuilding Enterprise
MT: Your activities are mostly connected to the MiG-29 fighter family. The latest versions of the RD-33 engine feature a number of improvements, including most notably increased TBO. Could you describe this process?
Nokinov: Yes, indeed, starting from the 1950s the engines manufactured by our plant were mainly installed on fighters, designed by the Mikoyan Design Bureau. At present, as I have mentioned above, our main task remains to manufacture RD-33 engines for the MiG-29. The total number of RD-33 engines manufactured from 1985 amounts to approximately 4,000 units, which considerably exceeds the production volumes of the leading Western companies manufacturing combat aircraft engines. The important point here is that the large number of our engines in service has allowed us to progressively identify and correct any perceived weak points.
As you said, the main emphasis for the development of the Series 2 and Series 3 of the RD-33 was to improve reliability and increase service life. While the RD-33 Series 1 engine had a TBO (Time Between Overhauls) of 300 hours and an assigned life of 1000 hours, the corresponding figures for the Series 3 engine are 1000 hours and 2000 hours, respectively. The MiG-29’s RD-33 remains Chernyshev’s main product. The RD-1700 has been designed for new-generation trainers.
Even higher figures have been obtained in the development of the newest RD-33MK version, which is intended to power the MiG-29K carrier-based fighter. During its development a number of sophisticated constructive solutions were introduced to improve reliability, particularly in view of the specific operating conditions of carrierbased aircraft. For example, the HP turbine has single crystal, perforated blades with dual-layer coating. Maximum dry thrust was increased from 5t to 5.4t and afterburner thrust from 8.3t to 9t by increasing compressor air flow by 6.5% and raising turbine inlet temperature by 40°K. Requirements to anti-corrosion protection of the engine gas flow duct were also taken into account, and engine smoke emissions were considerably reduced thanks to the adoption of a socalled smokeless combustor design. The RD-33MK is also equipped with a FADEC electronic control system, the absence of which was a drawback of earlier MiG-29 fighters.
MT: Is the RD-33MK technology going to be transferred to India?
Nokinov: No, the contract that has been signed with India for the supply of the MIG-29K does not envisage any technology transfer.
star49F-16 and F-18.. costly.. I agree… We are talking about what is good for IAF .. yes I agree.. But remember whom IAF is protecting… these deals cost billions of dollars which result in more jobs in countries like USA may be in France also.. So this has good political and economical opputunity.
Let see… who is buying brand new A/c in 100s currently.. no one except India… so when the competition get stiff, India should ask for more than tech transfer..
i didnot know that India is small country that it needs to buy protection from a big power. India already made one mistake by joining that G-4 when on its own it has better chance of getting most of the third world votes and big powers for free for UN seat.
IAF needs fighter aircraft rather quickly and single engine fuel efficient (as it imports oil) and it has energy deficit. so it is better to spend on actual thing rather than on some dubious political gains.
buying any other aircraft will lay to waste both MIG-29 and M2K in IAF inventory causing it to further trim down. and it is illogical to ask for technolgy which u cannot aborb and reproduce.
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