star49Unkil is not going to pick up the tab. BTW your numbers may be on the low side. I estimate it will be closer to 5 billion easily.
BTW, I had mentioned on April 14 that Pakistan was asking for a two-part deal with initial delivery from USAF reserves. Chalk up the third straight correct prediction for GA.
$5B is too much. my initial prediction is something closer to $2.5B if things work out. nothing has been decided yet so your predicitions have no meaning at this point. as Old F-16 number will increase relative to newer one in the order as mentioned by the person.
star49Everyone else sees how he is continuously asserting that Pakistan only tests things once they are operational, right? Personally, I refuse to believe they are that blindingly stupid.
u are taking my statements out of contexts right from the begining. I didnot mentioned that Patriot is better than S-300 or Russian upgrades are inferior but i was pointing the loss of confidence of Indian establishment on them for certain reasons. and the second statement about Testing was more about declaring tests public. if Test is known public than it is usually assumed in Pak case that the system is in opertion or shortly in operation. that is the reason u see only one report about PAF testing BVR but things were brought from kentron a decade ago but known now in statements.
star49So their process is: design it, build it, field it, and THEN test it?
and that process is long passed on when it is made public.
Conversely, where’s your proof that India does NOT have a ballistic missile force?
did u read the article. there is no evidence of mass production of missiles and for that matter anything else made in India. just few examples and that also liquid fuel. they need some thing like 400 to 500 SS-23 IRBMs with 40 to 50 launcher to make some tactical effect. they have other defeciencies in long artellery.
star49actually it will be fitted with phalanx, pakistan just ordered 6 more of them.
r u sure about this? they are more likely to be installed on current ships.
star49You specifically said they only test things which are successful and operational. How does that mean anything other than they only test things after they are in service?
Pak is never going to test a high profile system that is not going to be operationally deployed. so use logic only those systems are tested which are already operational. by tests means declaring them in public.
So they have absolutely no capacity whatsoever to produce the weapons indigenously now? They have to either import them or build them by license manufacturing? All those people and not one rocket scientist among them?
unless u provide evidence to back that assertion that have mass produced weopons and especially billistic missiles. there is big difference between producing few and wide spread induction.
read this article although it is not 100% accurate.
http://www.indianexpress.com/ie20010428/an1.html
star49Really? You’re saying that they don’t bother to test anything before putting it in service? 😮
nope i am not saying that. u are not understanding what i am saying and i will not eloborate on this any more. lets put it this way when anything comes to public it is already deemed successful.
And now India has no ballistic missile force? 😮 😮
I reiterate a previous point:
Yes, thinking problem.
Yes they have billistic missile force enough for parades just like Arjun. unless there is evidence of importation of billistic missile or under license manufacturing.
star49No more or less so than yours.
What does Indian SAM purchasing have to do with this so-called ADS-37? And I’m sure the offer of the Patriot has NOTHING to do with that AT ALL…but of course in your world it means that the S-300 is worthless, right? Is that where you’re going? Russian technology is junk, so the Su-30MKI, R-77, MiG-29K, BrahMOS, S-300V, all of that just HAS to be considered crap, right?
As for your unsourced article:
Pakistan claims high-altitude SAM under development
David C Isby
Pakistan’s National Engineering and Scientific Commission may be about to test fire a prototype heavy surface-to-air missile (SAM), writes David C
Isby.
News of the new SAM design may be part of the latest round of ‘missile
diplomacy’ in the region.Doesn’t look to me like it says anything definitive. It might be an S-75/HQ-2, it might be an FT-2000…might be…claims…may have…
You completely miss the point. the same point i was arguing with Phanton but he could not understand. Pak tests only those things which are Successful and Operational. otherwise show me one system Pak claimed to have developed and it failed and is not in operational 😀 . this is how the system works.
now compare to India only those things are developed and paraded which are not yet developed and failure. and Phantom was not understanding this point regarding billistic missiles because those were for most part indigenously claimed or made. so there is no evidenc of mass production.
star49and the installation of Russian 630 CIWS to replace the 37mm gun fitted on 05H3.
now this is interesting.
star49Oh, yeah? Let’s see what his pals have to say:
http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php?showtopic=37726
On the other hand, I better stop questioning him and just accept everything he says as fact, or else we’ll have a repeat of the incident where a certain member tried (and completely, pathetically, failed) to instigate crap between two forums :rolleyes:
surely that person hearing is alot more credible :rolleyes: and why do you think India stop looking at S-300? and dont want to sign IPR. because Russia has joined certain other countries where things can be supplied to both sides,
Pakistan claims high-altitude SAM under development
David C Isby
Pakistan’s National Engineering and Scientific Commission may be about to
test fire a prototype heavy surface-to-air missile (SAM), writes David C
Isby. The missile is reported to be of single-stage configuration, using an
unspecified terminal guidance system to deliver a 100 kg warhead against
targets at altitudes of up to 98,000 ft.
Previous reports of indigenous Pakistani SAM development had concentrated on
the Anza series, the largest version of which, the infrared guided Mk III,
has a claimed maximum range of 15 km. Pakistan may have publicised the new
design in response to press reports of negotiations between India and the US
for the sale of Raytheon Patriot SAM systems.
No detailed information has been released on the new missile. It could be an
upgraded version of the Chinese HQ-2 design (which is based on the Russian
S-75) or a Pakistani adaptation of the Chinese FT-2000 SAM. The claimed
high-altitude performance implies that the system could be given an
anti-tactical ballistic-missile capability.
News of the new SAM design may be part of the latest round of ‘missile
diplomacy’ in the region. On 19 March, Pakistan reported the successful test
launch of a Shaheen 2 (Hatf 6) 2,000 km-range ballistic missile.
star49i found about Cheetahs on another forum.
South Africa Sells Surplus Aircraft
June 25, 2002;
In the same written reply to the South African National Assembly’s questions, Defense Minister Mosiuoa Lekota said the 469 aircraft were withdrawn from service since 1990 due to “either obsolescence or a reduction in force design”. The list included Mirage F1, Cheetah E, Canberra, Buccaneer, and Impala strike aircraft, as well as Harvard, Cessna, Impala, Cheetah D and E, and Alouette 111 basic and advanced trainers. The SAAF also divested itself of Aztec, Queen Air, C160, Dakota, Kudu, Viscount, DC4 Skymaster, Super Freelon, Puma, Alouette 111, HS125, and Islander transports, as well as Canberra, Bosbok, and Cessna reconnaissance planes.
Of these, 297 had been sold, while the others were being stored at Hoedspruit and Bloemspruit Air Force Bases, as well as at Polokwane and Swartkops airfields. Only limited maintenance was performed on these aircraft, so varying degrees of additional maintenance would have to be carried out in order to restore them to serviceable condition.
The Peruvian Air Force bought ten Canberra aircraft, while five HS125 transporters went to Australia, and three Cheetah E and one Cheetah D strike aircrafts were sold to Pakistan. Other aircraft sold went to a variety of organizations and individuals, among them, Denel Aviation, Flight Research USA, Sparrow Aviation USA, and a number of flying and aerobatics clubs. These aircraft included Kudu, Viscount, Bosbok, Albatross, DC4 Skymaster, Dakota, Impala, Super Freelon, Alouette 111, and Puma helicopters, Harvard, Cessna, and Transall C160.
star49IT is from dec 17, 2003. read that fighters are already capable of PGMs and BVR at that time. the only consfusion is about infrared seeker which is used both for air to air and air to ground. and it is from senior rankin gofficial.
By Arshad Sharif
ISLAMABAD, Dec 17: Pakistan Air Force has integrated the H-4 out-of-sight target bombs in its arsenal of fighter aircraft, official sources said. The incorporation of H-4 bombs have added to the capability of the PAF to hit out-of-sight targets from a distance of up to 120 kilometres to evade enemy radars during air strikes. A lighter version of the bomb, H-2 model, can hit the out-of-sight targets from a range of up to 60 kilometres.
“It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region,” sources said.The indigenously produced H-4 bombs is an achievement of the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), which works in close collaboration with Pakistan Missile Organizationand the Air Weapons Complex.
“Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets,” the sources said.
The H-4 bombs have been made through indigenous efforts by modifying the technological design of South African T-Darter BVR missiles. Till the induction of JF-17 Thunder in 2006, with a provision for BVRs, the H-2 and H-4 bombs could be carried by Mirage fighter jets. The H-4 infrared device is said to be comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 in the Indian arsenal.
Moreover, the sources said, fighter aircraft in PAF’s arsenal have the “provision” to be fitted with precision-guided munitions and BVR missiles. When asked about advantages of BVR in Indian arsenal, PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Sarfaraz said: “We are aggressively trying to utilize whatever equipment we have to its optimum operational limits through professional training and by pursuing high standards of maintenance.”
Mr Sarfaraz said: “We are aware of our technological needs and are vigorously trying to meet those requirements either through procurements or indigenous developments.”
star49Yes thinking problem.
againg wrong on this.
Funny, Taiwan only got 200 AIM-120s. Seemed to be enough for their 150 F-16s.
it was not included in original order and they have other capable bvrs also and number is big.
That’s easy. The J-8II, J-11B and J-10 will be able to carry the SD-10 and perform BVR intercepts that much more effectively than if they were using the SARH PL-11 or R-27. That means the Su-30MKK/MK2 fleet is able to concentrate that much more on the A/G role, meaning fewer AAMs are needed, AAMs that can only be carried by the Su-30MKK/MK2 anyway. They can still carry a pair for self-defense, but they don’t need to fly around carrying six of them at a time hunting for aerial targets when there are other aircraft just as, if not more, capable of doing that job.
u are mixing present and future. how many J-8, J-10, J-11 can carry SD-10 especially J-11? they can go to war this year or next year or two year later and large number of SD-10 capable fighter will still not be ready. they already have 100 Su-30 and they need it now. this is the same argument running around PAF. u cannot add BVR in one day it is long process and once u have that BVR capable fighter it first goes into that. so Su-30 is capable of R-77 so it should carry more.
star49That is completely wrong, and indicative of your problem of not thinking your arguments through.
India: Su-30MKI, primarily an air defence aircraft (funny, that “another country” bit of yours)
China: Su-30MKK/MK2, strike aircraftNow, if I was buying weapons for an air defence aircraft, I’d sure want a lot of AAMs. But if I was buying weapons for a strike aircraft, AAMs aren’t nearly as big a priority.
Also, the MK2s weren’t on the books when the initial MKK order was placed, and the order for the R-77s. By the time the second lot of MKKs was bought, the SD-10 was progressing through testing and it became apparent that the PLAAF would have an indigenous weapon shortly, further reducing the need for the MKK fleet to carry an active radar BVR weapon.
no thinking problem. u need some numbers extra for testing and spares. the order is too small for this purpose. and who say that Su-30MKI is for airdefense. there air defense fighters are MIG-29 and MIG-21.
and how is SD-10 going to decrease the need of R-77.
star49First of all, the 220E does not increase the thrust (which is still the 23,770 pounds in full burner that the 200 provides), it is a modification that increases reliability and maintainability. It does not give it 27,000 pounds of thrust.
they did increase the thrust in PAF case.
i think PAF can get one of them and has knowledge about the other but they dont have high opinion about it.
Nobody questioned whether they could buy BVR weapons. The issue is whether they are currently operational of any of Pakistan’s fighters, and the answer is NO. Why can’t you get that through your head?
how the answer is no when the statement on previous page clearly shows the latest batch Mirage BVR capable(and that is not the only batch). i can show you tons of statement from PAF officials saying having BVR technology.
Nobody said the air battle would consist of one Su-30 against on F-7 either. Oh, and for the tenth time, the PAF Mirages do NOT have a BVR weapon? If eventually they get the U-Darter, they will still be lacking compared to the R-77 equipped Su-30’s and MiG-21’s or the R-27 equipped MiG-29’s or the Super 530 equipped Mirage 2000’s because the U-Darter doesn’t have the range of any of those weapons. Of course that is a moot point because Pakistan doesn’t have a BVR weapon IN SERVICE. Even if Pakistani Mirages were to get airborne and get to altitude, you think a 35 year old airframe with a limited equipment fit for modern air-to-air combat is going to have a chance against one of the most capable modern fighters in service ala Su-30? Even an upgraded F-4 would have more of a chance against an Su-30 than a Mirage III would for crying out loud.
i think on this BVR issue u have to eat your words for very long time to come. because the statements will continously come on this issue. and not all are 35 years airframe and they are completely rebuilt. and u need situational awarness for proper positioning. there where long range ground network comes into play. its not tha full speed Su-30 will arrive in seconds from deep inside India. it will take minutes or hrs to come.
Are you honestly going to try and convince me that a Mirage III/V airframe is going to be able to defeat the Su-30?
By the way if Indian air bases are getting hit with BM’s, don’t you think the same would happen to Pakistani air bases? Or is there some mystical power that protects Pakistan and allows the mighty PAF to operate at will? Have you actually listened to any of your arguments? None of them make any sense.
So u are going to convince me that French-Italian-SA upgraded Mirages cannot handle anything from CIS built. no one come close to US and French when it comes to communication, navigation and jamming. and there all the BVR battle will be won and lost.
star49Not that big considering their FLANKER fleet? Are you aware that their SU-27SKs aren’t equipped to use the missile? Only the -MKKs and -MK2s can use the R-77.
And no, it would not make sense to use the weapon on every Chinese aircraft if it was that good. There’d be numerous issues to surmount regarding avionics integration. Ergo, they developed their own PL-12/SD-10 instead for use on locally-built aircraft (excluding the license built FLANKERs, of course).
Yes i am aware about that still leaves 100 Su-30? how many R-77 will be needed for them. alteast 1000. considering size of R-77 order to another country.
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