star49nice try he use word Mirage 2000-5 not Mirage-2000 in general. there can be other models for other countries and they can get away with it.
star49AA-12 Adder is Nato designation hence “(Nato)”, I know it was a bit cryptic…but you cant expect me to type straight when replying to anything thats posted by the Oracle 🙂 .
I am amazed at your knowledge sir. Amazing….I cant help but marvel at your insightful observations. You really are an asset to AFM. Would you suggest gluing them on or do you recommend using thumb tacks? Should we call Martha Stewart for it?
PS: The J-10 used FN not FM.
I use the word FM standard does not mean that it actually uses FM engine. as usual you dont read well. regarding FBW just read a little about -SKM (small upgrade) and UBM(big upgrade) plently of material is there.
this is from Feb 11, 2002 issue of Flight internatinal incase you are not following engine developments.
MMPP Salyut has successfully undertaken the first flight of its own
variant of
the AL-31F engine. The company is hoping to find applications for the
AL-31FN
on new versions of the Sukhoi Su-27 family and the Chinese Chengdu J-10
fighter.The engine differs from the basic variant in having a redesigned fan
for
higher air flow. The initial flight was conducted on 24 January using a
Su-27
test-bed. Salyut hopes to increase the AL-31’s thrust by 10-15%.The AL-31FN tested is a development prototype and lacks the Klivit
thrust-vectoring nozzle developed by St Petersburg-based Klimov.The nozzle is being developed for the AL-31FN – it isa larger version
of one
already fitted to a special variant ofthe Klimov RD-33 engine developed
for
the RSK MiG MiG-29OVT thrust-vectoring demonstrator.
star49that $500m figure in early 90s(assuming everything was done before 1994) was too big money for China considering engine was from russia.
star49Oracle ji:
X is the russian (cyrillic) OEM designation so X-31 is the Kh-31, R-77 is aka RVV-AE, X-73 is the R-73. I thought you were smart enough (or were enough of an a/c enthusiast) to know that, but guess being an oracle takes up way too much of your time. Most folks in the IAF will give you a puzzled look when you ask about the AA-12 (Nato)? And when you say R-77…they respond with “Oh RVV?” I donno about where you come from but 12,700 is quite different from 12,500 and its not a typo that this south asian air force is likely to make…granted you would like to believe that….but then you are the oracle who has redefined what BVR is…so who am I to argue with you.If it costs only $15M to reach full MKI (mk.3 std) then I guess very soon we will have 273 odd MKI std a/c flying around in our neighbourhood. I say it aint gonna happen…you and other claim that its doable…only time will tell. Till then you can continue to dream up wonderful # about an in-development AL-31FM (on the Su-35 @ 12.8 and on the Su-34 @ 13.3 on the J-10 @ 15 oh what the heck make it 30,000 kgf??) and a $15M SMK upgrade to MKI.
I think you dont read my posts well. the cost of any flanker upgrade to -MKI should not be more than $15M. that what i stated. You can extrapolate EW price from F-16I which is $250M for 102 F-16I. same is the case with French displays. Only digital FBW and TVC and airframe strengthening remains for russia cost. and that should not exceed $5M per aircraft assuming digital FBW for Ruaf aircrafts along with new EW suite and targetting system combined. I am ruling out new AL-31 engine price for now as these just required TVC nozzles. $15M is the entire price of second hand Su-27SKM.
on engine I think Su-34 and J-10 uses AL-31FM standard.
but i am not interested in this. I want more what is operational value of Su-30MKI over Su-30MK. Does MKI fire more longer range weopons to have maximum benefit of long range radar or more variety of weopons? does it has more accelaration over -MK? similar is for range, hard points, and MTOW.
how much is TVC benefit in terms of turn rates assuming it is increasing weight and shortening overhaul times.( i doubt it has any value in presence of high offbore sight missiles). EW suite and displays can be updated to any aircraft.
star49so claim of cheapest fighter jet
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1097012,curpg-1.cms
Tejas will be world’s cheapest fighter jet
RAJAT PANDIT
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, MAY 03, 2005 11:56:02 PM ]
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The development cost for Tejas, which has completed 395 test flights and crossed the 1.4 Mach supersonic speed barrier, is currently pegged at Rs 5,489 crore.
NEW DELHI: The new American F/A-22 Raptor stealth fighter costs Rs 480 crore. The Rafale multi-role jet being inducted into the French Air Force and Navy, in turn, notches about Rs 270 crore. The price tag for the French Mirage-2000 and the Swedish JAS-39 Gripen also hovers between Rs 130 crore and Rs 160 crore.
In contrast, despite huge time and cost overruns, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft “Tejas” will cost only Rs 100-110 crore. And perish any thought of Tejas becoming “obsolete” by 2010 when it will be inducted into the IAF. Its “open-architecture” avionics and “glass cockpit” systems ensure it can be constantly upgraded.
This was the basic message delivered by defence minister Pranab Mukherjee, defence secretary Ajai Vikram Singh, DRDO chief M Natarajan and others to the Parliamentary Consultative Committee on Defence on Tuesday after members expressed…
…serious concerns about the long-delayed project.
The MPs were also told that Tejas, which will be the world’s smallest, lightweight and relatively cheapest frontline combat aircraft, had excellent “export potential”. Sources said Brazilian aviation major Embraer – India has ordered five Legacy VVIP jets from it for Rs 727 crore – has already shown interest to jointly market Tejas worldwide.
The development cost for Tejas, which has now completed 395 test flights and even crossed the 1.4 Mach supersonic speed barrier, is currently pegged at Rs 5,489 crore. This again is quite low compared to Gripen’s development cost of around Rs 12,640 crore.
star49This does not take care of AL-31FP being of 12,700KG more likely a typo just like R-73 and others are put as X-73. These kind of metal plates are typical features of South Asian reporting. There is AL-31FM engine with 12,800KG thrust.
Regarding wear and tear on -K. It is typical of all other airforces or IAF use is different than all other airforces.
The most money required for upgrading -K to MKI will be around $15m including every thing after all it cant be more than full price of Su-27SKM. So it is still better than $45M unit price of new -MKI. It is IAF indecision that is stopping it.
star49Huh? I ve been the one saying that for well over a year now, he has been using his above average intellect to inform us that you can zimbly drop in a N011M, cut-paste canards, drop in a AL-31FP and get it to lift max fuel/payload without much effort (i.e. using the OEM Su-30 airframe). That I gotta see to believe…I think he seriously underappreciates what the MKI is all about :diablo:
I think you should leave this engine issue alone :diablo: You have been shown not only one but i gues hundreds of reports on this forum that AL-31FP thrust is 12500KG, AL-31FM-1 is 13300KG(to be fitted later this year to Russian aircraft).
They have been waiting for this contract since last year. the problem is on India side. and this complete BS that -K airframe life is short. they will there in IAF even in 2080 judging from MIG-21 history and ugprades.
Text of report in English by Russian news agency Interfax-AVN web site
Moscow, 24 September: Twenty-two Su-30MKI and 18 Su-30K Flanker fighters that have been supplied to India over the past few years will be modernized within the next two years to meet the standards of the Su-30MKI multi-function fighters of the third batch, Aleksey Fedorov, president of the Irkut research and production corporation, has told Interfax-Military News Agency. “A contract to modernize these forty planes will most likely be signed in the first quarter of 2005,” he said, estimating the modernization project at “several hundred million dollars”.
Credit: Interfax-AVN military news agency web site, Moscow, in English 0604 24 Sep 04
star49It means that Irktut has some extra Su-30MK with similar specification. without that how can RMAF chief know about capabilities? and they brought one of it to the airshow. also there is plans of sellling ruaf stocked Su-27 with Su-35 equipment in latin ameirca for $20m for brazil and venzualla.
star49they are almost the same aircraft. only ew system is different. malaysia use German fofe sytem and french cockpit and avionics. both have same features,engine weopons also. F-16 weopons, engines, radars and weights changes with block.
Source: Voyenno-Promyshlenny Kuryer, No. 39, 2004, p. 6
In addition to the Su-30MKI fighter, the Bars can be mounted on certain types of the Su-27 fighter. In particular, this complex is installed on the Su-30MKM fighters.
star49Russia prevented this upgrade. it was in 1994 AW&ST. and i dont think derby was operational at that time to give any advantage to elta radar. you have to look at time line of indian procurement process.
star49I dont get it….Barailley is the home of the No.24…they are the Su-30K not the MKI. So what exactly did the Thai pilots fly an MKI or K, big difference ya know. And I highly doubt if they to fly in an MKI as a quid pro quo for letting IAF jocks fly an F-16. AFAIK no foreign pilot has flown an IAF MKI (russians dont count), I have heard of folks being allowed to sit in the cockpit of an MKI but never seen pics of the same, only USAF boys in the cockpit of a Su-30K.
how big is the difference between Su-30MK shown to RMAF and MKI. only EW suite is different. rest of the aircraft is same. i think malaysia will start to use that aircraft alot in multinational exercises.
there airforce chief was comparing it non-aesa f-18e.
star49Rip,
Remember what I said about the F-16s and the baby’s chaddy?
Looks like Pakistanis too are coming to the same conclusion:
You cannot use nuke every day. F-16 you can use day and night any time and enhance alot of capabilities. and its one person conclusion at particular point of time.
star49It seems that F-16 fear has thoroughly ingrained inside IAF and India is looking at each and every F-16 operator around the world. Is there any F-16 operator left behind?
Asian Age
April 28, 2005IAF men try F-16 Falcons in Thailand
By OUR CORRESPONDENT
New Delhi, April 27: It was an exchange programme with a difference. A group of pilots from the Royal Thai Air Force visiting India on Wednesday got a chance to fly the Su-30 MK fighter aircraft. At the same time, a batch of Indian pilots who are in Thailand, took sorties in the F-16 Falcons. The IAF officials said that it is the first time such an exchange programme was carried out with a foreign Air Force. A team of Thai pilots flew the Su-30s at the Barielly Air Force station. The Thai pilots, led by Group Captain Poramate Katekovit, will also visit IAF’s air defence college at Lucknow and various transport squadron at Air Force station Agra. They will also visit the Aircraft System Testing Establishment in Bangalore. Simultaneously, 10 pilots of the IAF are in Thailand. Led by Group Captain R.D Mathur, the team will visit various establishments of the Royal Thai Air Force. IAF pilots got to fly the F-16s. The Royal Thai Air Force flies the latest versions of this aircraft. India is also considering F-16s as it looks for a multi-role aircraft. The IAF pilots will get another chance to fly along with the F-16s later this year. The US Air Force will bring F-16s for the annual joint fighter aircraft exercise scheduled to be held in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, in November. The IAF is awaiting response from the US company Lockheed Martin, for the information it had requested on the multi-role aircraft. The US government has given the go ahead for the sale of F-18s as well. The IAF team comprises officers of flying, technical and logistics branches. The visits are stepping stones in the defence cooperation between the two Air Forces. The teams are expected to understand each others’ working ethos and culture. This exchange visits provides a unique opportunity to fly the aircraft which is not part of their inventory. The IAF has now increased its interaction with other forces around the world. It has held exercise with the French, Singapore and South African Air Forces.
star49Both the F16 and the FC1 are tailed cropped delta configurations (ie similar “airframes”). Why would their comparitive performance differ because of altitude? If one can out-manouvre the other at sea level it will also out-manouvre the other at any other altitude. It not as if configuration and other performance enabling form factors in the “airframe” would change due to the altitude? Aircraft with similar configurations will behave similarly (within the contraints of their “airframe”) at any altitude. They dont conviniently change their performance wrt each other just because the altitude varies.
The F16 C/D has a calculated ITR of 1.5 deg/sec greater than the FC1 at any altitude. It has a lower stall speed than the FC1 and its calculated corner velocity is greater than the FC1 by less than 15 m/s. Why would these advantages be negated solely because of altitude? Would the wing area of the FC1 suddenly change at different altitudes to enable greater performance in these aspects? I don’t think so.
from where you got the information when design freeze and weights of one of the aircrafts will be decided by end of this year?
star49The F-16 was never in contention. It has to be the M2k5 or a mix of M2k5 and mig 29’s. They are both more than capable of taking out a bunch of F-16’s. But the main idea of the MRCA is to enhance strike capability, so I feel it will be M2k-5.
How you got this news that F-16 was never in contentions? When you see this kind of resolutions by parlimentarians. it means very strong force is pushing for it and equally strong force of MIG-29. the end result will be that IAF cannot chose any aircraft on time let alone signing it and government clearing it. it is non starter to begin with :diablo:
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