China’s RD-93 deal precludes them from re-exporting the engine, so those 100 engines aren’t guaranteed to ever see Pakistani service. Who do you think China is more likely to listen to anyway, Islamabad or Moscow? Which government is selling large quantities of arms on a regular basis to China? Are J-10s going to be armed with mythical H-4 BVR AAMs that we haven’t heard about? I wouldn’t be suprised at all if China reiterated their agreement not to re-export the RD-93 to Islamabad as part of a new weapons deal in the near future. Russia still has a lot of toys they could offer Beijing in return for guarantees about the future whereabouts of anything they send to China. Besides, nothing is stopping Pakistani aerospace engineers from developing their own engine, or from the FC-1 program being altered for export to use a Chinese powerplant.

There is no official word on agreement. just anonymous source. Why do you think China ask for EU embargo lifted? and want to reward them many times more. They have there own independent way of doing things not influenced by others. so far there is nothing about engine issue just media reports.

the 4th FC1 fighter will be fitted with China-made KLJ10 fire control radar system. In addition, this 4th FC1 fighter has undergone some structural adjustment. FC1 put on display at Zhuhai Air Show 2004 was actually the mock-up of the 4th FC1 fighter finished a short time ago. Analysis of this mock-up fighter reveals that the connecting portion between the mainar, tailfin and the fuselage is reinforced with strip-shaped structure so as to control vortex flow of the aircraft. Meanwhile, the internal capacity of the air-intake channel is also larger. Through such improvements, FC1 has much better manoeuvrability as it still adopts longitudinal dualplex FBW system and conventional mechanical operation for transverse control. In addition, the problem of smoking due to the insufficient air intake will disappear after such improvements.

In terms of fire control radar, the competition between Russian PHAZOTRON and Italian GALILEO AVIONICA is becoming fierce and both companies are attempting to lower the offer price. An exclusive PHAZOTRON source tendering price of KAPYO-F phased array radar is only US$1.2 million, while Italy is offering a price of US$1.6 million for the tendering radar system for FC1.

India would obviously have an interest in the engine program. I’d assume they’d pressure the Russians to ensure the engines aren’t re-exported, in either original or nonlicensed copy form.

This approach wont work. in short term yes but for next 3 years i dont think. 2008 serial production from PAC and 2006 from CAC.India will have to pay heavy price interms of contacts to keep this engine away for 3 years. and US and France is also after the same contracts. they have been squeezed by 3 countries so they are not capable of signing anything at the moment. we will see how long this continues.
the best they can do is to stay aircraft in China for 2 extra years and pilots and ground crew gets training there.

This is getting lamer and lamer. You have been using the same arguement since I registered on this forum. Seriously, what would russia do if India buys western weaponry? Its already selling all the latest tech to china. What else can it do? Will it arm pakistan to the teeth like US? Russia doesnt have the economy of US to sell weapons at cheaper prices like old soviet and pakistan cant spend billions to buy. I dont want to use the term ‘beggar nation’ for pakistan, but lets face the acts, pakistan is only recieving arms as aid rom US or at a discounted rate from china. Russian weapons arent exactly cheaper now and if india cant afford then pak deinitely cant afford them.

Russia can fold up virtually indian arm industry and armed forces in one go and putinn isnt shy of these big things just like he rolled up $50B oil firm and write off $8B from syria arms. so he can twist as much as he want.
how much percentage of PAF and PA or PN is composed Of US arms and where are the licenses for those weopons like in India?

Sure MA,

I guess it is cozy with the head in the sand. That’s the way you guys like it don’t you? 🙂 Your own minister said that for the FC-1, China cannot supply an engine until Europe lifts its sanctions. I don’t want any explanation for why he said it but the fact is that he said it and guys like you cannot come to grips with it. BTW look at the title of this thread – “speculation” 🙂

VR,

I too think there will be another engine. That’s my point as well. Only an idiot would base his airforce’s future on the supply of engine from a country upon which his enemy has enormous leverage. I’d say that it is unlikely that more than the first few prototypes of the FC-1 will have RD-93s. Look for a European engine if PAF is smart or a Chinese one if they are a little less smart. But then again, they can be totally stupid and rely on the RD-93 😉

ofcourse they are idiots. they can only see Indian influence in whole CIS. If Moscow is not taking into task Ukraine(the previous Kutchma has the best relations with Putin) for dealing freely with Pak projects. do you even think they will even raise this issue with China. it pure media BS on which basis you are speculating not only this issue but all other issues starting from F-16 and ending with F-18. between what happened to Russian Tu-142 upgrade? Nuke subs, Amur diesel, backfires, S-300 :diablo: . there are alot of things that i want to spell it now. you will become laughing stock.

this is from your own press. there is no tolerance in russia for India market slipping to West. the moment india do it. you will face the music for both past and present and future project.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=68971
The IPR agreement is a mandatory requirement before India and Russia can act upon offers from Moscow for New Delhi’s participation in projects for a fifth generation fighter, medium transport aircraft and civil jets. The two countries are currently involved in the development and manufacture of BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles that will soon be inducted into the Navy.

Over the last three years, Russia has persisted in its insistence for an IPR agreement with New Delhi because the government — starting with the NDA regime — has increasingly looked to other countries, chiefly Israel, for weapons and military equipment. Indeed, Moscow had serious reservations about India’s decision to mount Israeli Phalcon AWACS on Russian-made Ilyushin-76 transport planes. It has vehemently refused to participate in a tripartite upgrade of the Navy’s Russian Tupolev-142 maritime planes using Israeli electronics
Russia, which continues to be India’s largest military supplier, has however found its position slipping as the government looks to other parts of the world for its burgeoning weapons needs. Sources said officials in Moscow are also likely to communicate to the Defence Secretary the Kremlin’s concerns on Washington’s aggressive push of F-16 fighters to India. Russia’s MiG-29M will be competing against the F-16 for a lucrative 126 aircraft order later this year.

What find? He gave a link to a messageboard and some rumors. Is there an article or report on the “WS-13”?

BTW, do clowns enjoy talking to themselves? 🙂

So is there any link that Plaaf has signed up for FC-1? or any other foreign government? or is there any link to another engine being installed on FC-1? or tested in past or will be tested in future?
the answer to all of the above is no. :diablo:
It seems you have opened speculating industry. 😮

The F-16/Harpoon comment is nonsense. The State department itself said that the F-16s are not for the war on terror but to give a sense of security to Pakistan. And in the same interview Rashid was asked if the F-16s came with the condition of not using against India and he said that the F-16s were for security against India and the US knows it. So don’t bring in BS and that other joker who is not worth replying to.

and US official has also said F-16 decision is business decision. they can say many things to justify the decisionl they are not accountable for this. and what happened to your 80 F-16 predictions?

I repeat, can you tell me why a Pakistani official spokesman would say that the FC-1 has engine supply troubles if everything is hunky dory?

so why do you think the PAF Chief and other officials were so confident on factory inguartaion day about this project and call it giant step towards self reliance? or these officials are of less value than information minister.
you seem to pick and chose officials which fit your scheme of things.

The difference is that I’m giving you direct evidence and a chain of events for which the engine change is the most likely explanation while you come up with **** and bull stories.

1. Minister says there is a serious engine supply issue
2. Intake size changes significantly
3. Russia says no RD-93 to Pak

but you want to say “Factory opened” so everything above is to be ignored? :rolleyes:

Very nice evidence that you have collected. do you know how many AL-31 engines were order for initial batch of J-10 and that these are for far more important project for them.
It is high unlikely that China will order that many engines for an aircraft which is underdevelopement and only for export purpose untill this point or should i post articles from there official magazines.
admit it you have wet dreams about JF-17 :diablo:

Vikas,

Actually, let’s get out of the sarcasm.

Can you tell me one good reason why Pakistan’s information minister would officially say that the FC-1 is dependent on China getting engines from a European source and there is uncertainty about the engine supply?

If you want I’ll share the audio snippet with you.

the information minister has no clue about these things. i met him at islamabad club. he is not into this. he will say things for public consumption when it fits scheme of things. The time is to create the need of F-16 for PAF in media. so every thing else is in back burner. so what do you make of musharraf saying in public of another high tech option beside F-16? from this it seems paf has too many options if your logic of public statements is applied :diablo:

VR,

The order numbers don’t matter much because despite the ToT claim, for a long time the Kamra facility is likely to be doing assembly work as it slowly learns other things. The engine was always going to come in independently.

THe number China has ordered could mean a lot of things. They may need a lot of RD-93s to break apart and figure out how to clone them or “borrow” subsytems from them. For example, the few production versions of even fighter planes in the US typically include a few that are deliberately broken apart, so that crews get hands on experience in repair.

If PAF wants 150 FC-1s, why didn’t China order 150 RD-93s? 😉

Anyway, at the end of the day, it is amazing to see Pak have its so called main fighter totally dependent on illegal or backdoor acts by China to get the engine and associated spares.

Another laughable idea. 😀 If they were interested in breaking apart RD-93 engines for clonning. they would have done it decades ago from MIG-29 in former soviet states. so your idea of breaking apart RD-93 in 2005 doesnot make any sense :diablo: . Any way the first RD-93 was prepared around 2000. so what they were doing untill now?
PAF wants 150 FC-1 for that you need alteast 250 engines. that 100 engine order looks for first 50 to 80 aircrafts in near term.