star49Just for the record both Benjamin Netanyaho and Sharon (both speak Russian) held meetings in Moscow to go after different projects like upgrades toghter. Russia refused and got to greedy and ended up losing more contract to Israel.
Also if the Russians want to be more competative they will have to merge some companies. i know we ll like different Russian designs and all, but in todays world it’s not practical.
I dont think money is the only reason. Russi is still open to Western Avionics integration. Just look at -MKM deal and also allowing Chinese to put domestic AWACS on IL-76 platforms.
star49You can add MIG-29 to that doctorine also. I think there wont be any big difference in range of MIG-29 and MIG-21BIS and that combine with R-73 and HMS would have filled the role as any it was dependent more on GCI network untill Su-27 are procured in sufficient number. I am not sure how Mig-23 stakes against Mig-21 in that role.
star49I’m not referring to getting MLU kits for those in service, I’m talking about getting more F-16s to up the inventory.
They will also goes through MLU. As F-16A is most likely to be obtained. Even if you put newer one. It takes atleast 4 years from initial order.
star49No, those seperate roles came from very real threat from the western countries of the world. The numbers involved actually made them viable… if they only needed a few dozen of each aircraft then it might have been a problem but with hundreds required their choice of matching the aircraft to the role has led to a variety of aircraft that can be bought to a role. Big countries like China and India and perhaps Brazil can look at Flankers, while smaller countries can go for smaller aircraft (ie Mig). No other country has the threat of bombers and cruise missiles to the scale that the Soviets did, though the Australians could probably use 2-3 dozen for patrol purposes if they weren’t so far up the US’s butt. But then they have no threat serious enough to warrant the cost anyway.
There was no real threat. It was just presented in inflated form. This just one of example.
[Learn history before commenting like this.. ]
So do you think i havent read about this thing? I have met people who did this purposely on particular side for very long time.
star49Because they figured out how to wire them to carry nuclear weapons, that’s why. More F-16s means more nuclear delivery vehicles. That’s probably part of the reason India keeps arguing against a potential F-16 sale to Pakistan.
Not that the reason. Giving MLU to F-16 is itself time consuming process and it is unlikely to happen before 2010 unless there is some other way around.
It is just to make a point.
star49Mach 2.83, the same as the MiG-25P.
Is it sustain speed?
Provided an AIM-120 is underwing, of course.
When it was written AIM-120B was in service and certain other missiles also approach that capability.
star49How fast does a fire engine need to be… fire doesn’t travel that fast.
The hint is in the name… interceptor. You find targets and fly to a point in front of them called interception points and you you try to get your air to air missiles to hit them and then you land and refuel and rearm and do it again… speed it rather more important than manouverability, and weapon range and sensor range certainly help a lot too.
You keep mentioning speed so how much more top speed MIG-31 can sustain versus Flanker? I am not going in acceleration part. MIG-31 if i am not mistaked has shorter range and climb rates are also lower versus Flanker.
Except the idea of the F-16 was of a cheap light fighter that everyone could afford… it is turning into a heavy expensive fighterbomber…
Cheap is a relative term. F-16 priced at $10M in mid seventies is the same as $40M Block 52+ in 2005
They needed three types of aircraft… a point defence fighter, a longer range fighter that could perform escort roles without wet pylons and an anti bomber/anti cruise missile interceptor. Three very different roles for which they developed three very different aircraft. Their technology level at the time was hard wiring their avionics… there was no multirole options until the late 80s early 90s.
Point is not about Ground attack. All of them were doing the same job but with different ranges.
No, those seperate roles came from very real threat from the western countries of the world. The numbers involved actually made them viable… if they only needed a few dozen of each aircraft then it might have been a problem but with hundreds required their choice of matching the aircraft to the role has led to a variety of aircraft that can be bought to a role. Big countries like China and India and perhaps Brazil can look at Flankers, while smaller countries can go for smaller aircraft (ie Mig). No other country has the threat of bombers and cruise missiles to the scale that the Soviets did, though the Australians could probably use 2-3 dozen for patrol purposes if they weren’t so far up the US’s butt. But then they have no threat serious enough to warrant the cost anyway.
There was no real threat. It was just presented in inflated form. This just one of example.
It was a mistake, first and foremost a mistake on the part of Soviet intelligence services. They took seriously some information – I don’t know where they got it from, I couldn’t establish what the sources were – but they took seriously some information that the Americans were in all seriousness planning to deploy forces in Afghanistan and open a base there.
And when all these facts were strung together, the end result looked like a big threat – that Americans were really about to open a base in Afghanistan
THE SU-27 AIRFRAME AND ENGINES OPTIMISED FOR MANOUVERABILITY AND RANGE… THE MIG-31 AIRFRAME AND ENGINES ARE OPTIMISED FOR SPEED.
There is no reason that Flanker has slower speed or maintain slower speed. Mach 2.35 versus Mach 2.4 difference. And i think MIG-31 will burn fuel faster.
A point defence fighter needs acceleration, some manouverability, and not much else. The original Fulcrum would kick the original F-16s a$$ every time with high off boresight missiles and BVR missiles… and did so in tests. And that is 7 hardpoints. Later models add two more and the are plans for wing tip AAMs for 11 hardpoints.
So it has more to do with high offboresight missile and BVR rather than actual aircraft.
That is like saying the US was not smart enough to build F-22s to fight the Indians…
They can afford it so they built. It does not matter on other side weopons.
Perhaps the problem is that you don’t understand the structure of what the west would call the Soviet Airforce. Just like the USMC and the USN have their own special needs and wants the Frontal Aviation, PVO, and other Soviet air forces had their own special needs… and these needs were met. Whining that they could have gotten away with fewer aircraft types is just rediculous.
again your copying from some body else doctorine. There is no need for as many aviation factories and development complexes in Soviet Union either.
Except that the Mig-31 was in service first so if any aircraft was to be made the standard it would’ve been the Mig-31.
Not by a big margin. MIG-31 is just evolutionary upgrade of MIG-25
But the ZASLON was optimised for interception and was very expensive and complicated. It would also completely change the balance of the aircraft… and the Su-27IB has no where near the speed of the Mig-31 when both are fully armed. All its shapely curves and manouverability are wasted in the interception role.
MIG-31 is airframe is not strengthen for very heavy loads so it is absurd to compare its speed at equal external weopons with Su-27IB.
Hehehehe… when you are making nuclear attack subs with hulls made of titanium someone is biching that they could have gotten away with fewer types of fighters!!!!
The Mig-29 replaced the Mig-21 and on some missions the Mig-23. The Su-27 replaced the Su-11 and Su-9 and Su-15. The Mig-31 replaced the Mig-25 and the Tu-128. The range capabilities of the Su-27 meant it also took on roles that didn’t exist like bomber escort for strike missions and carrier aircraft.
They didn’t just decide to pick an aircraft out of the sky and call it Mig-29.
Past is irrelevant to future decision.
With new Computer technology… yes things are becoming multirole but there are very no missions that an F-16 can do now that the FA needed the Mig-29 to do then. Both the F-16 and the Mig-29 have adapted and grown into multirole aircraft. The Mig-29 has grown rather more than the F-16 simply because it was a more limited and specialised aircraft to begin with.
MIG-29 more grown than F-16? I dont think so.
Except that affordability was not a requirement.
The Tu-160 could have been modified to tackle bombers and cruise missiles too.. the Tu-160P… it could have had a huge radar and dozens of the heaviest AAMs then made and strategic range.
Tu-160 came later and is good idea in some way because it can be useful for other roles.
star49And finally, this should really make “someone’s” day:
http://www.kommersant.com/tree.asp?…6&doc_id=300257Dec 27, 2004
Quote:
In addition, vice-premier Il’ya Klebanov recently announced that Russia and India would work jointly to develop a fifth-generation combat plane. Subject discussions are supposed to begin next year after the government has named the contractor on the Russian side (this will probably be Sukhoi).
This is old new from 1999-2000 trend report. Sukhoi is already the contractor since 2002. Dont try to put current dates on old news items
star49ROFL. Glad to see you acknowledge that the Indian side has money, unlike someone else. :p
Provided that you have the authority to spend that money according to your own choice. Putin has seen money in some body else pocket also :p
star49Because you say so, indeed 😀
of course.
What idiocy! You expect me to MAKE a T-90S in my garage? 😀
Spoken like a true Yahoo. The T90S production license includes transfer of technology for all components, read the PAC reports and educate yourself.
As regards the PAK-FA, had you slept off lately or were you dreaming of Putin again?
That PAC reports are full BS. Technology transfer only happens when you can actually make that thing.
And not only you but also India cannot make it without active Russian participation and even after that It will still need Russian assistance for upgradation. The same story of MIG-21 upgradation after 40 year in service.
So? It in fact proves that Russia is actively scouting for partners for future projects and gives the lie to your silly talk of Russia going it alone.
That was MIG Director statement he does not want any body else for future export fighter.
ROFL. It is quite clear that you will suck upto anyone depending upon the time of the day. Those are all the hallmarks of a flipflopper.
Nope. I havent become fan of Russian equipment because of Putin attitude.
Yes, we know it was a rant. Yes, we also know that you hate the Flanker since the PAF cant get it and it completely outmatches the Raptorski JF17.
My condolences! 😀
PAF can get any Flanker if it wants not because it cannot get it. JF-17 is even stealthier than F-16 the rest you can judge from my signature.
Nonsense. As if you have any say whatsoever in what Russia will or will not do. 😀
I know alot more but it will become off topic 😀
star49it seems that uncle putin has rang you up and told you that……. :rolleyes: 😮
Putin is not going to leave Indian money to some body else. This thing will keep coming continously for ever. :diablo:
star49Your are not up to date, when it comes to the outside world. The rework of Ugandian MiG-21s was 2004.
India (as customer) is looking into more Mirage-2000 or MiG-29s.
But you gives us an example from Pakistan. 😀
I have already stated that when you are in deep trouble when no body else can solve the problem except the OEM than be prepare for heavy bills. Else you are free as much as you can to upgrade the aircraft.
Regarding India buy MIG-29 to solve this problem than that question is beyond the scope of this discussion and it wont solve the problem. Putin wants all and every thing.
star49Yaawn. And till now Russia was very liberal huh? LOL.
now it is totally different.
Nonsense.
The MKI deal involves complete transfer of technology, ditto for the T90 line. The PAK-FA has involved detailed presentations to the IAF and now their proposals are being listened to.
When you built it by yourself than come back and talk. T-90 is just assembling untill now when you can make it indigenous than talk.And detail presentation for IAF regarding PAK-FA where is the proof.?
Look who is offering 5Th generation fighter because they know the other partner is does not have technology and money. Engine exports are already cleared.
Defence Industry
Rosoboronexport preparing several big-ticket contracts with China
MOSCOW. Dec 24 (Interfax-AVN) – The Rosoboronexport state-owned arms trader is planning to sign several big-ticket contracts for aircraft supplies to China soon, Yury Krylov, deputy head of Rosoboronexort’s air force department, said on Friday.
“China starts gradually abandoning direct procurement of aircraft. Nevertheless, we are planning to conclude a series of new contracts, in particular, for the supplies of SU-30MK2 planes to the Chinese Air Force,” Krylov told a session of the Trade and Industry Chamber’s aerospace industry development committee.
Pre-contract work on the supply of IL-76 Candid military transport planes and IL-78 Midas aerial tankers to China is nearing completion, he said. “The contract is basically finalized, the only thing left to specify is the price,” he stressed.
According to Krylov, implementation of this contract might provide work for the Tashkent aircraft production association and for many Russian enterprises involved in building planes of this type.
Russia and China are also discussing a possible continuation of supplies of SU-27SK Flanker assembly sets to China, so that the fighter aircraft could be license-produced in China, Krylov said.
Exports of aircraft engines to power China’s Super 7 and Super 8 planes are also possible, he noted.“In the future, cooperation with China will develop through implementation of joint projects in the aircraft industry sphere. In particular, we are discussing China’s possible involvement in developing a fifth-generation plane,” Krylov added.
ROFL. Putin is now your “herrow”? What happened to H177’s rants against Putin? LOL.
You truly are a totally irrelevant fliPflopper.
The Russians need to cooperate with their customers and are willing to codevelop. That speaks volumes for Putins pragmatism and your jealousy. 😀
There is no flip on this issue. My rant is and was against the Flanker. Russia will cooperate only when they see IP issue signed in 4 months and alll deals are cleared in there favor.
star49Actually it was only a few months ago.
And trust me, French/Israeli upgrades are usually way better than the Russian offers.
I was referring to PLAAF A-50 deal and consent to India IL-76 deal was given some where in 2001-2002 period. So it was signed in early 2004.
star49From Israel Business Arena)
Byline: Ran Dagoni, Washington
“Defense News” reports that Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) and Elbit Systems (Nasdaq: ESLT; TASE: ESLT) are about to lose a deal to upgrade eight anti-submarine planes for the Indian Navy, because Russia is refusing to take part. The deal has a potential in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
Russian participation is necessary because the Tupolev Tu-142 planes to be upgraded are Russian, and Russian consent is needed for their upgrading by a third country, an Indian defense ministry official explained.
According to “Defense News”, India originally asked Russia to upgrade the planes, but negotiations collapsed when Russia demanded $888 million for the deal. The Indian Navy then contacted IAI and Elbit Systems. The two companies planned to install multi-task avionics and electronic warfare (EW) systems on the planes.
The Indian official said that because Russia was refusing to sign a tripartite deal with Israel and India, the Israeli companies were unable to carry out the upgrading work.
The deal Russia turned down was similar to the tripartite deal signed by the three countries for installing Israeli-manufactured Phalcon air reconnaissance systems on three Russian-made Ilyushin 76 planes for the Indian air force.
Published by Globes [online] – http://www.globes.co.il – on September 1, 2004
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